Mega-Thread: Coronavirus Pandemic

[shadowmouse]

@PC2 You think you've "studied" China. Congrats, I've lived here the last 20 years. How many years did you study, and where?

You're simply uninformed and trying to make out like you know something. Skeptical is one thing, claiming without support that fatalities are three times higher is just plucking a number out of thin air and that number conflicts with what we're seeing outside of China. That's nothing but bigoted fear mongering. You are asserting that you, and not the CDC or WHO, know that this virus is at least three times as deadly as we're being told. I think I'll stick with believing them, even though TIL they're part of the PRC.

Now, go stand in the corner, and read your link to what ad hominem is.

[PC2]

@PC2 You think you've "studied" China. Congrats, I've lived here the last 20 years. How many years did you study, and where?

You're simply uninformed and trying to make out like you know something. Skeptical is one thing, claiming without support that fatalities are three times higher is just plucking a number out of thin air and that number conflicts with what we're seeing outside of China. That's nothing but bigoted fear mongering. You are asserting that you, and not the CDC or WHO, know that this virus is at least three times as deadly as we're being told. I think I'll stick with believing them, even though TIL they're part of the PRC.

I get the feeling you have a slavish devotion to the government. All governments are flawed and their integrity should be constantly questioned and criticized, that's how we improve our institutions.

Now, go stand in the corner, and read your link to what ad hominem is.

Nah I'm not saying you are bad as a person, i'm not saying you're stupid, and I'm not saying you have any kind of sinister intentions. I'm only saying I disagree with your ideas/positions and how they lead to a blind trust in government.

As far as the wumao comment I'm not saying you are one. I know you're not a wumao because a real wumao would never reveal their location as you have done.

[szechuan]

I get the feeling you have a slavish devotion to the government. All governments are flawed and their integrity should be constantly questioned and criticized

And I got the feeling you know little to nothing about China and make up baseless claims.

[shadowmouse]

@PC2 As Roz noted earlier, this is a virus thread. The politics forum is over thataway and I try to stay the hell out of it. As far as the virus and statistics go, notice that I keep going back to reports that have gone through a non-Chinese news source, and preferably ones that have at least some input from external monitors.

I'm in several high risk groups for this virus, the same way I am every year for flu. As far as the disease, I'm not especially worried about it, no more than if I heard the flu this year was particularly unpleasant. I am, however, worried about crowd behavior in panic situations, and that's why I'm pushing you to stick to facts. It has nothing to do with blind trust or even what form of government I support (do recall, I'm an elderly American, with a background in international law and international trade). It has a lot to do with being in the middle of 20 million plus people, and not wanting to see it turn into a Who concert, nor wanting to see the sort of ugly mob behavior that is likely to pop up if this thing gets loose (I see one of the people evacuated from Wuhan tried to leave quarantine in the US) in Europe or North America where many of my old students now live and work. I'll take the stories with a grain of salt because they generate clicks, but it does sound like there is growing hostility to Chinese right now.

So, if you have sources that put figures into question, post them and let people examine the source and method, but please don't fuel a possible panic without solid information.

[PC2]

And I got the feeling you know little to nothing about China and make up baseless claims.

So you believe China doesn't lie about statistics? I find that to be very naive. In reality China lies about almost everything from GDP growth, to crime rates, to how well they are handling this virus.

@PC2 As Roz noted earlier, this is a virus thread. The politics forum is over thataway and I try to stay the hell out of it.

No because the government controls Chinese society and so you can't talk about any of these issues without mentioning the government.

As far as the virus and statistics go, notice that I keep going back to reports that have gone through a non-Chinese news source, and preferably ones that have at least some input from external monitors.

That doesn't mean anything because non-Chinese new sources get their information from the Chinese government.

I'm in several high risk groups for this virus, the same way I am every year for flu. As far as the disease, I'm not especially worried about it, no more than if I heard the flu this year was particularly unpleasant. I am, however, worried about crowd behavior in panic situations, and that's why I'm pushing you to stick to facts. It has nothing to do with blind trust or even what form of government I support (do recall, I'm an elderly American, with a background in international law and international trade). It has a lot to do with being in the middle of 20 million plus people, and not wanting to see it turn into a Who concert, nor wanting to see the sort of ugly mob behavior that is likely to pop up if this thing gets loose (I see one of the people evacuated from Wuhan tried to leave quarantine in the US) in Europe or North America where many of my old students now live and work. I'll take the stories with a grain of salt because they generate clicks, but it does sound like there is growing hostility to Chinese right now.

So, if you have sources that put figures into question, post them and let people examine the source and method, but please don't fuel a possible panic without solid information.

The bolded parts are exactly right and that is also exactly why the Chinese government doesn't want transparency. Because they care more about the reaction rather than what is strictly true.

[szechuan]

So you believe China doesn't lie about statistics? I find that to be very naive. In reality China lies about almost everything from GDP growth, to crime rates, to how well they are handling this virus.

So you believe China Lies about ALL statistics? That would be very conspiratorial. In reality China is not in Extreme Poverty like you suggest and you've been previously wrong about a lot of Facts about China.

No because the government controls Chinese society and so you can't talk about any of these issues without mentioning the government.

You were talking about things unrelated to the Virus and constantly making baseless wrong claims about China.

[shadowmouse]

@PC2 OK, have a nice day and enjoy your conspiracy theories.

It is very simple, the US, the UK, and other countries are ... not China.

How dangerous a virus is, across a population, tends to be somewhat consistent. You have continued to fail to back up your claim that this is three times as lethal as reported, instead falling back on "but China BAD". Ignoring all statistics from China, labs (including CDC and WHO) are able to model the behavior of the virus based on what they see in other countries.

What are we *not* seeing? Reports that this is any different from what China is saying.

What are we seeing? Experts saying that the rapid rise in numbers reflects the long incubation period, the low fatality rate, and the apparent ability of the virus to be communicable before symptoms manifest.

“We advise members of the public to not speculate and/or spread unfounded rumours,”

ZOMG, the PRC doesn't want transparency!1!1! Oh, wait, my bad. That would be Singapore warning against spreading panic and falsehood: https://www.msn.com/en-sg/news/other/pofma-to-quash-wuhan-virus-falsehoods-which-can-cause-public-panic/ar-BBZocaF?li=BBr8Cnr

This is what you are playing into: https://edition.cnn.com/2020/01/31/a...hnk/index.html

The head of Toronto Public Health also warned that misinformation about the virus had created "unnecessary stigma against members of our community."

"I am deeply concerned and find it disappointing that this is happening," said the head, Eileen de Villa, in a statement Wednesday. "Discrimination is not acceptable. It is not helpful and spreading misinformation does not offer anyone protection."

Toronto Mayor John Tory also spoke out this week about the coronavirus panic. "Standing with our Chinese community against stigmatization and discrimination," he said. "We must not allow fear to triumph over our values as a city."

[Freighter]

ZOMG, the PRC doesn't want transparency!1!1! Oh, wait, my bad. That would be Singapore warning against spreading panic and falsehood: https://www.msn.com/en-sg/news/other/pofma-to-quash-wuhan-virus-falsehoods-which-can-cause-public-panic/ar-BBZocaF?li=BBr8Cnr

http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20200130000265


Moon also declared a fight against fake news on the viral outbreak.

"The virus is not the only thing we have to face. We should actively stand up against excessive anxiety and vague fear," he said.

He instructed the government to release relevant information quickly and transparently.

The president emphasized the need for a can-do spirit, saying South Korea has world-class quarantine capabilities and experience in overcoming an outbreak like this.

"The weapons to protect ourselves from the new type of coronavirus are not terror and abhorrence but trust and cooperation," he said.

His remarks came amid protests by residents in two local towns, where hundreds of South Koreans evacuated from the Chinese city of Wuhan are set to be quarantined.

[jonnysensible]

The danger is if this goes to the 3rd world. Places like India etc.

lol @ judgemental western critique, cmon lads our countries have people who have literally bought back outbreaks because they wont take vaccines.

[Daedius]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...es-quarantined

Dang that sucks. Kid with cerebral palsy's family was taken away by the government and quarantined after coming down with fevers and he was left alone with no one to care for him. The father was begging people to take care of his son while he was detained and quarantined on social media. The local town government sent someone to feed him twice and then left him to die.

That is unforgivable sad...

[szechuan]

A Corrupt Member of the Trump Administration is suggesting that the Coronavirus Outbreak is a good thing for America. I hear he's writing a book called "How to Earn Money from a Deadly Global Pandemic".

[shadowmouse]

Just for a local take on the statistics question: https://www.thebeijinger.com/blog/20...Speed=noscript

All we can do in the meantime is play it safe and try to avoid being part of the chain of transmission -- of both viruses and, more important, of panic.

When we started this blog with infection counts at the top, we were reflecting on our own experience with SARS in 2003 -- light years ago in terms of technology (we didn't even have our own website until 2004). I remember each morning on my way to work during SARS I'd pick up the daily paper (the only source of information at that point aside from rumors that traveled by text message on our now-antique Nokia phones), stick the daily infection counts in an Excel spreadsheet and print out an update to post to the wall of our office, in hopes that transparency to my staff would not cause them to flee the city in panic.

As this deja-vu like situation has developed again in 2020, there now doesn't seem to be a single Chinese media outlet, fellow expat rag, ＷeChat account, or major Western media outlet that is NOT tracking infection counts and updating them by the minute in a neverending race to be the first to report, for instance, that one more poor soul in Gansu has just been reported as contracting this new strain of flu.

All of this fire hose of information is now a simple Google / Bing / Baidu search away.

Each piece is useful in some regard, and I'm glad to have multiple sources of this info (god knows the pros are doing a much better job keeping up with the data than we are). But in general, I think we all (myself included) are getting way too obsessed with numbers and a lot less focused on what we should be doing: providing practical, local, relevant community assistance to our readers in this time of difficulty.

To be blunt, sharing yet another link to updated numbers or trying to keep our numbers up-to-the minute is beginning to feel a bit like trying to tell you the weather forecast. It's information commodification, and serves only to repeat what people already know.

We're totally prepared to be roasted in the comments over this -- perhaps you think we're hypocritical in this stance -- but we're being totally honest, this is only our second go-round in Worldwide Pandemic and the first time we're doing it live. We're second-guessing ourselves all the time and would love your advice on how we could better serve you, our community in Beijing.

[Fargus]

Those who are living in China - why isn't your government clamping down hard on these unhygienic and inhumane wet markets?

[breadisfunny]

And I got the feeling you know little to nothing about China and make up baseless claims.

its what he does in every thread about everything. makes up baseless garbage and screams "fake news/science" anytime someone tries to disprove him.

[shadowmouse]

Those who are living in China - why isn't your government clamping down hard on these unhygienic and inhumane wet markets?

Probably because, Year of the Rat not withstanding, Chinese don't really give a rat's ass what Agent Orange thinks about how they should shop.

Other than that, you may be a bit behind in the news, their government has been closing open air markets in general for several years (not just wet markets, but even things like clothing markets). Market forces have contributed to that, today Chinese tend to do their shopping through Taobao and JD.com.

Right now, a lot of the news makes it sound like wet market is synonymous with a market selling live animals, but that isn't exactly true: https://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-wet-market.htm

A wet market is an open marketplace with stalls of vegetables and other food items presented for sale. Many wet markets are found in China and the Philippines. The name is based on the fact that these informal market environments usually have wet floors. Shoppers tolerate sloppy floors and items piled on mats or boards as the foods sold at wet markets are known for their fresh quality and low price. The moisture is created by market workers regularly spraying the produce and floors with water.

The best time to go to a wet market is usually early in the morning when the foods being sold are at their freshest and the selection is wide. China has many modern supermarkets, but wet markets have the freshest foods. The foods sold at these markets are purchased each day from local farms. Each vendor sets his or her own price and shoppers look for the nicest produce at the best price. Typically, vendors at wet markets don’t like to make change, so rather than large bills shoppers tend to bring smaller denominations of paper money or coins.

For a broader look: https://www.npr.org/2020/01/22/79864...giene-concerns

Chinese authorities say the outbreak likely began in an open food market in Wuhan. These are markets known as wet markets. [B]And health officials specifically suspect the virus came from wild animals they say were being sold illegally at the Wuhan market. ...
...
Actually, the Chinese government has been trying to convert many of the wet markets in cities to supermarkets. They tried this in 2002 but failed just because they were no longer able to provide fresh food at a cheaper price, so they lost their original customers.

It is undisputed that there were wild animals for sale in that market in Wuhan; however, it is less clear if the sale was legal. China is less like the Borg than many people think, the Chinese have a remarkable ability to ignore rules and believe that an apology and probably a "red envelope" will take care of anything. Put a stop sign in the middle of a corn field and an American will probably stop, even at 0330, when they can see clearly in all directions and nobody is coming. Why? Because that is the law. In comparison, it isn't uncommon to see a Chinese person blithely drive the wrong way on a busy street because it is shorter .

There was actually a further push to eliminate live poultry sales in 2017: https://apnews.com/69103d7227ae46a497a488814c19f7d2

China is ordering the closure of live poultry markets in its south-central regions as it grapples with the worst outbreak of bird flu in years that has killed at least 87 people.

What goes unmentioned in the English language articles is the rule "follow the money". A big reason the government is promoting supermarkets, while tearing down large, open air markets is taxes. Auntie Chen isn't making much on that wagon load of vegetables, so she is unlikely to pay much in the way of taxes. Supermarkets are easier to inspect and tax, and so are the high rise apartment complexes (20+ stories is increasingly routine) that get stacked up on the former market sites. I mention this to show that there is a reason to think there is a push to close them, because there is tax money on the line.

As a further example of the rather loose view many businesses have of laws, restaurants used to use cash register receipts that had a scratch off like a lottery ticket. Technically, I am pretty sure they're still supposed to, but I haven't seen one in ten years or so. The scratch off was supposed to make you ask for a receipt because you might win some money, but today it doesn't work particularly well. It is routine that the cashier apologizes and says they have run out of the receipts, but if you really, really want one you can wait (count on a long wait) or they'll give you a free bottle of soda instead! That's the way laws work here, they are written in often draconian language and on random Thursdays they might even get enforced that way, but don't count on it.

I'm up here in Beijing, so I can't comment on how legal or under the table the wild animal trade was in Wuhan, but it wouldn't surprise me if it really was illegal. On the other hand, I think Southern Chinese are more interested in unusual meats and perhaps the trade was legal but not conducted according to law (for example animals might have gotten butchered on site, but perhaps they were supposed to have been slaughtered off site). Up here, live seafood and the occasional frog or turtle are about as exotic as I see.

Because what is humane and inhumane relative. :^)

Well, there is that as well. https://www.msn.com/en-xl/news/other...cks/ar-BBZrRcB And that's without even dragging in the kerfluffle over veal and pate.

[Zatheyll]

Those who are living in China - why isn't your government clamping down hard on these unhygienic and inhumane wet markets?

There's a major difference between wet markets and illegal wildlife trading markets. Wet markets are simply just outdoor markets that you can find in many countries. Every village or neighborhood has at least 2-3, mostly selling vegetables with a couple stalls for seafood and some butcher stalls (selling general cuts of meat like pork or chicken, already cleaned). It's pretty much the exact same as any farmers market you would find in the West.

The illegal wildlife markets (which you and many media outlets are confusing for wet markets) have already been banned in China, and they're far more rare than you might think. I live in Guangzhou, and the one big one we did have was shut down a few years ago (from what I've heard, I could be wrong on that). Of course there's definitely a way to get illegal meat if you know where to look (just like anything anywhere), but it's not as easy as walking down the street, or even going to a meat market downtown.

Also general reminder: Chinese don't eat cats, bats, dogs, and rats like you think they do. It's like a Chinese person thinking all Americans eat frogs and alligators.

[Fargus]

Also general reminder: Chinese don't eat cats, bats, dogs, and rats like you think they do. It's like a Chinese person thinking all Americans eat frogs and alligators.

To be frank, I don't care what Chinese people eat. Just as long as the animal isn't tortured to death beforehand. And yes, I apply this same standard to Western countries too. That's why I don't support things like foie gras, caged eggs, etc

[sabe]

And scientists in Wuhan were playing with virus' and bats back in 2018.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0222145005.htm

I wonder if they tried to breach the bat immune system by creating mutations of different virus'.
If they did something to Corona, they prolly did same stuff to other virus types.

Below link supports my conspiracy theory. If somebody asked me how to destroy an immune system; with my very basic biology knowledge i would offer using HIV virus.
I don't know if this virus does kill bats yet but surely if this is man-made, more is on the way.

https://nationalfile.com/scientist-e...e-links-to-hiv

[Voidwielder]

You bet I'm full conspiratorial on coronavirus. Chinese were toying with ideas they had no full grasp on and it went out of control.

[PC2]

There's a major difference between wet markets and illegal wildlife trading markets. Wet markets are simply just outdoor markets that you can find in many countries. Every village or neighborhood has at least 2-3, mostly selling vegetables with a couple stalls for seafood and some butcher stalls (selling general cuts of meat like pork or chicken, already cleaned). It's pretty much the exact same as any farmers market you would find in the West.

I don't think that's true. Based on the footage I've seen there was a massive amount of animals laying around with different kinds of carcasses stacked on each other, some of them even laying right on the ground. It looked really bad.

Just as long as the animal isn't tortured to death beforehand.

I was watching a couple of those SerpentZA/Laowhy86 videos and they said that many Chinese people actually believe that when an animal is tortured to death the meat tastes better. More so for the older generation.