Horde Catapults too OP

[Nnyco]

The issue is that it is not mentioned in game but in an outside media published after the event was released in the game. So it is obvious they tried to damage control the thing.

Which came out at the same time tho, not to mention this isnt the first time we had info from outside sources, just look at all the backstory of dragon soul or sunwell for example.

[Rampant Rabbit]

The point is not that it is absurd .

The point is that it's was never mentioned/used before or after and that the single time it is mentionned/used, it's mentionned as if it's something mundane rather than something completly war changing ,(catapults having a range of hundreds of kilometers capable of shotting projectiles that can burn a gigantic tree in seconds .) and that it's was done to cover up blizz 's mistake of poor respect of the lore distance during the cinematic.

The cinematic should not be taken so literal, in the sense that when you see a multitude of things happening, they don't necessary all happen in that 30 second time frame you're viewing it in.

The burning of teldrassil took at least multiple hours, and we got a very short summary of it in that cinematic.

[naeblis495]

The cinematic should not be taken so literal, in the sense that when you see a multitude of things happening, they don't necessary all happen in that 30 second time frame you're viewing it in.

The burning of teldrassil took at least multiple hours, and we got a very short summary of it in that cinematic.

Passage of time can be very easily implied , yet there is none in the cinematic .

[Rampant Rabbit]

Passage of time can be very easily implied , yet there is none in the cinematic .

I think there is plenty.

Edit: For your convenience: It's the cross dissolves that signify the passage of time.

[Specialka]

Which came out at the same time tho, not to mention this isnt the first time we had info from outside sources, just look at all the backstory of dragon soul or sunwell for example.

They still should have put some shamans and mages in the video.

And I know we have a lot of stuff in outside media but I do not like that so I do not read them.

The range of the catapult in the video did not bother me because I knew what Blizzard wanted to show: that the Horde burns Teldrassil with its ppl inside no matter what. Those kind of details do not bother me but just wanted to point out that they should have put mages and shamans next to catapult.

And obviously the burning itself took days not seconds like it is shown in the video due to technical limitations.

[Venziir]

Storytelling that relies on outside media to fill in the gaps is my favourite kind of storytelling.

"Outside media" - You mean a free short story they published and even advertised for in the Bnet launcher? It even came as a physical document if you bought the BFA collector edition, thus hardly "outside".

[Specialka]

"Outside media" - You mean a free short story they published and even advertised for in the Bnet launcher? It even came as a physical document if you bought the BFA collector edition, thus hardly "outside".

Outside as not integrated in game. They could have put in a book you click INGAME (that is the important word here).

[Venziir]

Outside as not integrated in game. They could have put in a book you click INGAME (that is the important word here).

Interestingly enough, it seems the part about shamans and mages enhancing the catapults only took place when they assaulted the river outside Aastranar:

Falfarren River
As the main Horde army marched through Ashenvale, they faced their first resistance at Falfarren River. The night elf defenders led by Captain Delaryn Summermoon burned down the connecting bridges of the river, halting the Horde army and harrying them with arrows. Varok Saurfang ordered siege weapons to fire covering fire while the Horde tried to swim across the river. However, night elf magi began to covertly destroy siege weapons on the Horde's side of the river. Meanwhile, the night elf druids traveled through Ashenvale's canopy and was using guerrilla warfare to reinforce hot spots. Sylvanas and her archers went on to snipe all the night elf magi and provided intelligence and range support. Saurfang had his spellcasters enchant his catapults, using the flash of their exploding payloads to reveal hidden enemies.

There's actually no mention of such being used when Teldrassil itself was being attacked, therefor all the info regarding said attack was shown in game as both part of the Saurfang movies and the Sylvanas Warbringer short.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

So what is it , between "it was used before all the time , it was just never mentionned" and "first time for everything even tho such a good tactic would deserve a mention in game "

In any case , you can't find a single mention of this stuff even tho it can revolutionize war as the WoW verse know it(taking azeroth's map and comparing it to our real world scale , the distance between dark shore and teldrassil would be around 200-300 kilometers , having catapults capable of casually reaching such distance is insane , not to mention setting teldrassil on fire in a couple of second despite the three massive size) .

Because guess what , that excuse"MUHGIC" was made up in a hurry when they realized they fucked up the scales in the cinematic .

Given how incredibly limited the use of actual siege weapons is in wow it is likely that magic is used when ever it can be and this is just the first big story point to mention it as most sieges don’t happen in books/short story’s and In game they give us zero details on how any of this stuff works.

As for the distance it’s a meaningless feat if the projectile can be countered before it hits the target with most city’s having defences against such things that the tree likely didn’t as it was absolutely massive and the night elfs have few mages and no one thought such a thing ever happening.

As for burn time the tree catches fire in seconds but takes hours to burn.

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The funny thing is that not even Archimonde that was able to topple cities with his magic was able to burn the World Tree and he had better arsenal at his disposal with Fel Fire Weapons but when it comes to the Horde suddenly catapults have range of an S-400 and little pellets are able to set a Magical Tree blessed by two Aspects on the water on Fire. I wonder why it never happened again if it was that easy.

Archimonde was trying to train the tree/well of its power for a boost he wasn’t trying to just destroy it.

[Darth-Piekus]

The thing is that Archimonde had all the arsenal with him to burn a tree and definately the size also to do it.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The thing is that Archimonde had all the arsenal with him to burn a tree and definately the size also to do it.

he didn't want to burn the tree having the arsenal is meaningless if you don't want to use it.

[Darth-Piekus]

I know. I am saying that he had the size and the magic to do it unlike what they did with these OP Catapults in Teldrassil. Archimonde had the means to do it. They didn't. It was invented out of thin air and then forgotten again.

[Jastall]

The funny thing is that not even Archimonde that was able to topple cities with his magic was able to burn the World Tree and he had better arsenal at his disposal with Fel Fire Weapons but when it comes to the Horde suddenly catapults have range of an S-400 and little pellets are able to set a Magical Tree blessed by two Aspects on the water on Fire. I wonder why it never happened again if it was that easy.

It indeed makes the Legion look like chumps. These guys have extremely powerful Fel magics, spaceships, and golems raining from the sky literally made of fire, but can't put a dent in a smaller World Tree. Horde shows up with a few catapults off the shore and torches a city-sized World Tree within minutes.

To other posters, it's not a question of realism or anything, obviously Warcraft is as far from a realistic setting as it gets this side of Warhammer 40K. But consistency is appreciated, and the fact that the Horde never used this tactic before, never used it afterwards, and the whole thing had to be handwaved in a book makes this plain bad writing.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I know. I am saying that he had the size and the magic to do it unlike what they did with these OP Catapults in Teldrassil. Archimonde had the means to do it. They didn't. It was invented out of thin air and then forgotten again.

it's almost like having different goals means you do things differently.

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It indeed makes the Legion look like chumps. These guys have extremely powerful Fel magics, spaceships, and golems raining from the sky literally made of fire, but can't put a dent in a smaller World Tree. Horde shows up with a few catapults off the shore and torches a city-sized World Tree within minutes.

To other posters, it's not a question of realism or anything, obviously Warcraft is as far from a realistic setting as it gets this side of Warhammer 40K. But consistency is appreciated, and the fact that the Horde never used this tactic before, never used it afterwards, and the whole thing had to be handwaved in a book makes this plain bad writing.

Archimonde didn't want to destroy the tree he wanted its power for him self it has nothing to do with the legion looking like chumps and every thing to do with having different war goals.

teldrassil also isn't the size of a city and wasn't destroyed in minutes it took hours for the tree to burn and the tree it self is much larger then just the city of darnassus.

[FelPlague]

It's amazing how all of you blizz shills can't bring a single proof or example of this supposed mundane way of boosting catapults being mentionned before .

Again, mages using water elementals to speed up boats.
tidesages using water elementals to speed up boats, and air elementals to help, aswell as using both to tell where the storms are so they can avoid them.
Iron horde used enraged fire elementals to boost the explosive power of their devices, aswell as power their machinery.
the legion uses fel spirits for machinery, elevators, ships, mechs, rams, flamethrowers, cannons, carriers, turrets, towers, infernals, etc.


we literally gave you TONS of examples, but you keep saying "thats not proof, i want THIS ONE VERY SPECIFIC SCEANRIO" when we give you COUNTLESS like it.

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The thing is that Archimonde had all the arsenal with him to burn a tree and definately the size also to do it.

he didnt want to burn the tree.... he was trying to absorb the power from it which in turn would absorb the power from the well within.

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Given how incredibly limited the use of actual siege weapons is in wow it is likely that magic is used when ever it can be and this is just the first big story point to mention it as most sieges don’t happen in books/short story’s and In game they give us zero details on how any of this stuff works

Nah, it has been used many times before. the whole point of the iron horde was that garrosh brought the knowlege back of siegecrafter blackfuse, who used enraged fire lementals to power machines, something he learned by working with goblin shaman, who only exist as they make deals with the elements to power their machines and their mechanical totems.

also not to mention the legion did it, literally making entire ships.

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The issue is that it is not mentioned in game but in an outside media published after the event was released in the game. So it is obvious they tried to damage control the thing.

Yes, because they should explain how literally every single thing works in game and in cinematics.

"Fire the catapults that were made by our goblin engineers and loaded by our orc warriors with a mix of metal cages filled with wooden debris so that it can easily be lit aflame and stay aflame, then brought back with chain crafted in ogrimmars forge made by the orcs of blackrock. then guided by mages and shamans, this one mage specificly was born 1 year before the dark portal opened and was born to a farmer family of 4, which worked hard to get him the money needed to go to dalaran for 8 years where he trained to learn how to manipulate the elements of fire but met a woman who broke her heart and dedicated himself to getting revenge on her, and her family, the night elves, so that is why he is here.... SO FIRE!"

[Mehrunes]

makes me wonder why the Argent Dawn didn't try to make a protest on the Sylvanas' Horde's blighting and their campaign for death

For the same reason they didn't give a shit about the Ebon Blade using Forsaken tactics during WotLK. Even when they took a detour to fight the Scarlet Onslaught.

there was NEVER even once in history a country that decide that a leader can do anything to it even fuck it for his own benefit, a leader is elected - be given absolute power or not - to serve country, even the most evil tyrant like Hitler actually did what he belief is right
Sylvanas from day 1 never cared about horde, even if warchief position is tyrannical (which oppose most of wow history i first place) it still should be about horde, for her it was a tool like toilet paper just different name

Trying to invoke history in regards to a fantasy universe is meaningless. The text of the Blood Oath is clear. It's also publicly available. So read it instead of making non-arguments. Never mind that the concept of rulers serving their country is something that came up during the enlightenment.

key point here, varian and worgens, elves alone can do shit, thats why they didn't in mop

One would think that they key point there was "after Varian and Worgen left but whatever makes you scramble an illusion of an argument together.

and Varian with most of the alliance forces were in pandaria

Which part of the Alliance not sending anything significant to Pandaria until 5.1 do you still keep not getting?

yet, the horde was still there till this very day

No they weren't. They left after MoP. They returned only at the start of BfA. Where, you know, Sylvanas actually won and pushed the Night Elves out of the zone.

As a writer, I understand the problems all too well concerning power creep and writing yourself into a corner.

Between you and Blizzard, that makes one of you.

[Minikin]

Napalm my son

You love the smell of it in the morning?!!

[Mehrunes]

What's your point? Either way, it's completely beside the point you're arguing against.

My point is that comparing two different settings with two different magic systems is meaningless as an argument. Which is a point that should have been more than self-evident for anyone that read it. As such, your claim that it was beside the point I was arguing against couldn't have been further from the truth.

The act of magically enhancing siege weaponry in a fantasy story/game can hardly be called far-fetched or 'too low'.

Either way, it's completely beside the point you're arguing against.

It indeed makes the Legion look like chumps. These guys have extremely powerful Fel magics, spaceships, and golems raining from the sky literally made of fire, but can't put a dent in a smaller World Tree. Horde shows up with a few catapults off the shore and torches a city-sized World Tree within minutes.

To be fair to Legion (though they are indeed chumps), Nordrassil was planted on top of the second Well of Eternity and soaked in it for millennia (which is exactly what made it so appealing to Archimonde). While Teldrassil was ~12 years old vanity project of Fandral planted in the middle of nowhere.

[Specialka]

For the same reason they didn't give a shit about the Ebon Blade using Forsaken tactics during WotLK. Even when they took a detour to fight the Scarlet Onslaught.




Trying to invoke history in regards to a fantasy universe is meaningless. The text of the Blood Oath is clear. It's also publicly available. So read it instead of making non-arguments. Never mind that the concept of rulers serving their country is something that came up during the enlightenment.





One would think that they key point there was "after Varian and Worgen left but whatever makes you scramble an illusion of an argument together.




Which part of the Alliance not sending anything significant to Pandaria until 5.1 do you still keep not getting?




No they weren't. They left after MoP. They returned only at the start of BfA. Where, you know, Sylvanas actually won and pushed the Night Elves out of the zone.




Between you and Blizzard, that makes one of you.

Well, according to you, the whole Horde is traitors since Sylvanas did not die or chose another Warchief so they should have stay loyal TO THE END. Bunch of traitors those Hordies! Loyalty is earn, not given though an oath. You have to earn it.

[Minikin]

there was NEVER even once in history a country that decide that a leader can do anything to it even fuck it for his own benefit, a leader is elected - be given absolute power or not - to serve country, even the most evil tyrant like Hitler actually did what he belief is right
Sylvanas from day 1 never cared about horde, even if warchief position is tyrannical (which oppose most of wow history i first place) it still should be about horde, for her it was a tool like toilet paper just different name

Well that is pretty much the reason why the title of warchief has been wiped out. No more singular lunatic going about on their "I wanna make the world a better place using sheep/tools cuz I wanna!"

What's hilarious is that ogmot refered to sylvanas followers as sheep (an ogre understood that) meanwhile the entire world was like "oh that's alleria 100%"