So when will Blizzard stop giving players rental powers?

[Aliven]

It takes some impressively ass-backwards logic to label the creation of completely new, complex gameplay/progression systems every expansion as lazy.

As unsatisfying as things like Azerite armor have been at times, I'd still rather them come up with new stuff rather than 'now u grind even more levels of powr 4 ur warlurdz ring!!1'

It is the same system. Over and over.

Azerite armor is not a character progression.

[Powerogue]

It would be less annoying if the abililties obtained from it weren't so integral in making some classes functional and fun (CURSE. OF. THE. DREADBLADES.) They should have made every artifact ability simply obtained at level 110 and kept. I've only played a handful of classes in BFA by comparison so I'm less certain of what classes will feel empty again (except my outlaw rogue, who will be cripplingly energy starved again without the 2nd adrenaline rush).

The important thing is that the characters should feel "complete" and functional without them if they intend to make things "rental powers", which they fail to do in many cases.

[Chromell]

Probably never. We already have a huge power inflation from expansion to expansion due to ilv and whatnot. Had we kept every power augmentation over the course of WoW's life we'd have an even bigger power creep issue than we do in Diablo 3.

Making an educated guess I'd say the powers that come from Covenants will also go away, given the fact that they don't want players to feel obligated to do older content in order to catch up with the current expansion (this is a good thing, obviously). That is, unless these powers became staple/merged in talents or whatever as they have done with some Legendary powers from Legion.

[Doffen]

Azerite gear and neck doesn't make up to 70% of your power like artifact + leggos did in legion. It was objectively worse in legion. Legion WAS worse about rental power gear and this is a fact that has been proven mathematically so stop spreading lies. Not to mention when you took of artifact your HP was 1/3 of what it was.

Right now when you sim your character with ilvl equivalent of normal gear replacing neck, chest, shoulders and head you will have 40% less dps.



In legion it was around 60-70% depending on spec. Not to mention tier sets which contributed another 10%.

I like how you don't take corrupted gear into account, and the legendary cloak. In a couple of months they will provide more damage than legendaries ever did. Not to mention they do that already. I got 2 effects on now, they do 15-20% of the damage depending on procs/fight. In a few months we can equip 1-3 higher corrupted items, which will increase this ever further.

In BfA we got 4 rental powers, in Legion 2. So indeed, stop the nonsense. You are objectively wrong. Even the amount and power.

70% you said. Wonder where you took that number from. Proven mathematically.. Please provide the math.

Edit: Your sim doesn't take away the essences. Changing neck doesn't automatically swap your essences out. And the cloak will go higher up in ilvl, and the neck will as well. Further than any normal cloak or neck would do. So the further we go into BfA the more power we will gain. Already it's doing 60% of my damage(yeah I simmed, essences was 18 % of my damage.), and this will improve a lot in the next few months so when you get to Shadowlands and we lose all this, then what? So yeah, I am waiting for that 70% of the power was from artifact and legendaries. We are just 3 weeks into 8.3 with a huge power potential in the months to come. And just to mention it again, we got 4 rental powers now. Compared to Legion which had 2.

So what's worst? 4 or 2 rental powers? If you really dislike rental powers you would answer BfA. But we all know you won't admit that.

[Dystemper]

It's easier to stabilize the game and make the game feel different each expansion. Plus, if we had a new power every expansion, the game would be so hard to learn for new players. Overall it's a good thing.

What new players? This game no longer attracts new players in any significant numbers to matter

[Jonnusthegreat]

What new players? This game no longer attracts new players in any significant numbers to matter

It's better than creating game bloat like all the other misc systems in the game like battle pets. Every new patch needs like 8 legacy systems. You can't just create mobs and quests anymore.

[cparle87]

It takes some impressively ass-backwards logic to label the creation of completely new, complex gameplay/progression systems every expansion as lazy.

As unsatisfying as things like Azerite armor have been at times, I'd still rather them come up with new stuff rather than 'now u grind even more levels of powr 4 ur warlurdz ring!!1'

Lazy is just a handwaving buzzword some people use to label anything they don't like because they can't think of an actual argument for why it's bad. Clunky is another. It's basically "lol I called Blizz lazy I won argument!"

[kaminaris]

I like how you don't take corrupted gear into account, and the legendary cloak. In a couple of months they will provide more damage than legendaries ever did. Not to mention they do that already. I got 2 effects on now, they do 15-20% of the damage depending on procs/fight. In a few months we can equip 1-3 higher corrupted items, which will increase this ever further.

In BfA we got 4 rental powers, in Legion 2. So indeed, stop the nonsense. You are objectively wrong. Even the amount and power.

70% you said. Wonder where you took that number from. Proven mathematically.. Please provide the math.

Edit: Your sim doesn't take away the essences. Changing neck doesn't automatically swap your essences out. And the cloak will go higher up in ilvl, and the neck will as well. Further than any normal cloak or neck would do. So the further we go into BfA the more power we will gain. Already it's doing 60% of my damage(yeah I simmed, essences was 18 % of my damage.), and this will improve a lot in the next few months so when you get to Shadowlands and we lose all this, then what? So yeah, I am waiting for that 70% of the power was from artifact and legendaries. We are just 3 weeks into 8.3 with a huge power potential in the months to come. And just to mention it again, we got 4 rental powers now. Compared to Legion which had 2.

So what's worst? 4 or 2 rental powers? If you really dislike rental powers you would answer BfA. But we all know you won't admit that.

Sims I have shown has twilight devastation at rank 3 simmed on single target which gives 6% of the damage.

In legion you had 20+ rental powers which artifact weapon provided most of them and 2 legiondaries. So stop with this nonsense. You are objectively wrong.
Its not about gear slots buts things that work like additional trinkets, and how much overall power they give.


Changing neck disables essences, at least it should. Othewise I would see purifing blast at second graph:

This is with current gear:


This is with non rental gear:


70% was simmed back then, would be too bothersome trying to find old version of simcraft but I did similar sims back then. Feel free to do it yourself.

[Vampyrr]

Azerite gear and neck doesn't make up to 70% of your power like artifact + leggos did in legion. It was objectively worse in legion. Legion WAS worse about rental power gear and this is a fact that has been proven mathematically so stop spreading lies. Not to mention when you took of artifact your HP was 1/3 of what it was.

Right now when you sim your character with ilvl equivalent of normal gear replacing neck, chest, shoulders and head you will have 40% less dps.



In legion it was around 60-70% depending on spec. Not to mention tier sets which contributed another 10%.

Oh hey I wonder how much my dps would drop if I simmed without a weapon? Just go punch the boss in the face. What a stupid post take your Legion hate boner elsewhere. The system was fine in Legion and actually felt good to progress weapon but feels trashy in BFA

[Mirishka]

Lazy is just a handwaving buzzword some people use to label anything they don't like because they can't think of an actual argument for why it's bad. Clunky is another. It's basically "lol I called Blizz lazy I won argument!"

Nailed it.

[kaminaris]

Oh hey I wonder how much my dps would drop if I simmed without a weapon? Just go punch the boss in the face. What a stupid post take your Legion hate boner elsewhere. The system was fine in Legion and actually felt good to progress weapon but feels trashy in BFA

Do you understand what those sims did? Doesn't seem so. It's not about taking out the weapon but REPLACING it with plain gear with the same ilvl.

[Lora]

we have been "renting" this entire time. we dont even own our account or characters.

[THEORACLE64]

Artifacts, Azerite, Essences, Corruption.

All these powers came for an expansion and then got taken away with a few "player-favorite" traits implemented into the classes' core, and leaving us with the feeling of bland class depth.

They replace one another, buy the feeling of "class complexity" but sometimes (especially in BFA and 8.2/8.3) they are so powerful, that it makes me feel like im playing not my class, but the rental power Blizzard gave me for two years.

Can we just get, i dont know, the big pool of talents, PvE/PvP/Legendary/Essences/Corruptions combined, like, 80+ talents for each class that could be unlocked 1 per level?

Then the player can choose the set of ~10 talents they pick from the unlocked pool. On the cap they will get full variety of PvP/PvE combinations they can use for PvE and PvP content.

Someone would mention the balance, but its essentially the same pool we have now, but combined, without split on PvP and PvE. Tune the numbers and we will be fine. Class balance isnt perfect anyway.

Just stop giving us toys and then taking them from us and replacing with another (as practice tells - way worse) toys.

They're expansion specific features, what's new.

[Doffen]

Sims I have shown has twilight devastation at rank 3 simmed on single target which gives 6% of the damage.

In legion you had 20+ rental powers which artifact weapon provided most of them and 2 legiondaries. So stop with this nonsense. You are objectively wrong.
Its not about gear slots buts things that work like additional trinkets, and how much overall power they give.


Changing neck disables essences, at least it should. Othewise I would see purifing blast at second graph:

This is with current gear:


This is with non rental gear:


70% was simmed back then, would be too bothersome trying to find old version of simcraft but I did similar sims back then. Feel free to do it yourself.

So you got one essence equipped? Did you take corruption gear into account? Did you take like top corrupted gear like echoing void or infinite stars? Did the legion sim take prydaz into account or bis mage bracers, dh ring, mm boots etc?

That sim does not show how much the dps difference is either?

4 vs 2 makes you objectively wrong. Guess we are done here.

[kaminaris]

So you got one essence equipped? Did you take corruption gear into account? Did you take like top corrupted gear like echoing void or infinite stars? Did the legion sim take prydaz into account or bis mage bracers, dh ring, mm boots etc?

That sim does not show how much the dps difference is either?

4 vs 2 makes you objectively wrong. Guess we are done here.

Please stop saying nonsense if you don't know how simcraft works, once you change neck essences are not working, automatically, same goes for azerite gear.

Its 25+ vs 11 if anything. and 45-50% of power in BfA vs 60-70% in Legion. Legion was a pinnacle of borrowed power. Even if you take infinite stars into account that is still not enough to catch up legion. Also if you want to go even further, artifact overload added another 10% in prepatch making it THE single most power item in entire wow history.

[Doffen]

Please stop saying nonsense if you don't know how simcraft works, once you change neck essences are not working, automatically, same goes for azerite gear.

When I compared gear without essences I had 48k dps BfA gear vs 26k in non BfA gear. Simming with the essences I had 58k dps. So yeah, it does take it off, but you failed to link the dps it did with essences. Because when you simmed you took away essences in both examples, or you didn't take corrupted gear into account. In all cases you did it wrong. So your proof of BfA rental gear being less powerful is useless.

So continue belittle people on how they don't know how simming works when you do not know it yourself.

Or if you actually did you where coming with a sim with the intention of bringing the wrong numbers so it wouldn't look so bad. Not sure what's worst. Not only that, you need to compare BfA vs Legion with the most powerful stuff. Best corrupted gear, best essences etc. You have not done that so far. So unless you do that your sims are useless.

[Swnem]

Well... devs think this is the way to make the game sustainable and assume we will stick around for all the boredom.

When you are not developing a game to be fun but rather to be a sustainable cash cow, these things happen.

It is literally one of the things that made me stop playing. Maybe even the biggest. There is just no point in engaging in this RNG extravaganza of time wasting that gets taken away at the end of the expansion.
Guess what?! If i don't grind them, save my money and come back in the next expansion, or the next, i will have not wasted my time and lost nothing! The smart way to deal with these temporary systems, is to not play! Great devs right there!

[kaminaris]

When I compared gear without essences I had 48k dps BfA gear vs 26k in non BfA gear. Simming with the essences I had 58k dps. So yeah, it does take it off, but you failed to link the dps it did with essences. Because when you simmed you took away essences in both examples, or you didn't take corrupted gear into account. In all cases you did it wrong. So your proof of BfA rental gear being less powerful is useless.

So continue belittle people on how they don't know how simming works when you do not know it yourself.

Or if you actually did you where coming with a sim with the intention of bringing the wrong numbers so it wouldn't look so bad. Not sure what's worst. Not only that, you need to compare BfA vs Legion with the most powerful stuff. Best corrupted gear, best essences etc. You have not done that so far. So unless you do that your sims are useless.

I know how it works, I have also confirmed that on simcraft discord.
I did not fail to link dps with essences, this is my dps WITH essences. So comparison is everything or nothing (excluding twilight devastation)

[Doffen]

I know how it works, I have also confirmed that on simcraft discord.
I did not fail to link dps with essences, this is my dps WITH essences. So comparison is everything or nothing (excluding twilight devastation)

But your sims are useless since you don't sim it with bis corrupted gear and essences. You try to compare mediocre essences/corrupted gear when you try to make a point that BfA got less rental power than Legion. And we are just three weeks into 8.3. I got decent corrupted gear and its 60% in difference. In a month or two it will surpass the 70% you claim artifact and legendaries were(and you don't want to show the numbers). And we have 4 rental powers now, Legion had 2. You are objectively wrong, and you try to show non optional sims to prove a point.

So either you are trying to make it show less powerful on purpose or you don't know how this works and how to compare it.

[Rhozul]

It takes some impressively ass-backwards logic to label the creation of completely new, complex gameplay/progression systems every expansion as lazy.

As unsatisfying as things like Azerite armor have been at times, I'd still rather them come up with new stuff rather than 'now u grind even more levels of powr 4 ur warlurdz ring!!1'

So, basically the idea behind rental power is that Blizzard ideally would have a working baseline for every spec and class in the game. Then they would go and design a new system for their class (in this case, let's use Legion's Artifact system as an example) and place that artifact on top of the existing baseline. Then at the end of the expansion, they remove the Artifact system and put a new system in its place for players to progress through.

Ideally, this system exists to prevent power creep and to limit the consequences of poor design during an expansion. If Blizzard designs something that's extremely OP, the rental power aspects of their progression system allow them to remove OP element as part of removing the entire package. They wipe the slate clean instead of having to actually iterate on what didn't work. This is probably what the person you quoted meant when they referred to the rental power system was lazy. A better term would probably be non-committal. Blizzard's rental power systems are non-committal to any given expansion's game mechanics.

Now it's unfair to say that Blizzard has always used rental power systems; they haven't beyond gear and Legendary items. Warlords of Draenor had the Draenor Perks, but those were basically just abilities you got randomly as you leveled up. Legion was the first expansion that introduced a game mechanic that grew with us over the expansion back, and it's removal was the first time an entire gameplay system was officially categorized as "rental." You can see that it was unexpected by people's reaction to losing their artifacts. People I play with STILL bemoan losing their artifacts. And, of course, Legion exposed to huge problems in Blizzard's design for "rental power progression" gameplay systems.

First, Blizzard overhauled every spec in Legion and they tied the artifacts closely to how those specs functioned. Many specs didn't work without the proper Legendary perks and Artifact Gold Traits, and many of the classes that are struggling today (or have struggled at any point throughout this expansion) are doing so because they are effectively playing with holes in their kit that were created by the removal of the artifact system. Holy Priest is a prime example of this, but nearly every spec has obvious holes in its kit that Azerite and Essences have only barely begun to mend for some specs (for example, Vision of Perfection fixing fire mage). Basically, a rental power progression system needs a strong, functional baseline to work and Blizzard did not have that.

Second, Blizzard made a system that they didn't test with the public, ended up months behind schedule trying to fix their rental power system, and now we're at 8.3 with no content for 7-10 months because so much development time had to go into repairing their core gameplay system. If the new system is inferior to the old (either literally or perceptively), then people aren't going to like renting the new powers and you'll face a backlash.