It's time for Rank 1 Essences to be account wide

[cparle87]

More like you boneheads can't grasp the fact that asking for BoA Essences and asking for actual free gear isn't the same at all.

Nobody is asking for a handout because the timegated work was already earned, I'm sorry you feel cool about doing 3 dailies a day for 2 weeks. Blizzard has already made items similar to Essences(Legiondaries) BoA before and it was perfect because they understood how much of a grind it is even if it was too late at the time.

You're asking for player power you've earned on one character to be given to another. Doesn't matter if it's from gear directly or not.

[Sharby]

You're asking for player power you've earned on one character to be given to another. Doesn't matter if it's from gear directly or not.

And this is an issue why? Levels are player power, you can boost, you can send benethic tokens and black empire BoA items, how exactly are essences any different?

I'd argue that the gear that's BoA is way more impactful than any essence would be, because as I stated essences do not give you Ilvl. A 380 alt with R3 essences is still a 380 alt, nothing would change except people will have a significantly better experience playing alts.


Just admit that Blizzard just doesn't want to do it because they don't, which is a fine and valid reason and I can't argue against that.



But every single time you guys try spinning it as a failure of capability its just cringe.

[Softbottom]

Here is what happens with a 120 boost char just doing the questlines and some WQs:



This is just silly, unlocking rank 1 essences for all alts will open for more character progression instead of regression.

A simple change with no downsides that will open up the progression for all our characters and make the game much more enjoyable.


What are your thoughts on this?

Cool. Do some content on that alt and get them essences maybe? They shouldn't be handed to you.

[cparle87]

And this is an issue why? Levels are player power, you can boost, you can send benethic tokens and black empire BoA items, how exactly are essences any different?

I'd argue that the gear that's BoA is way more impactful than any essence would be, because as I stated essences do not give you Ilvl. A 380 alt with R3 essences is still a 380 alt, nothing would change except people will have a significantly better experience playing alts.


Just admit that Blizzard just doesn't want to do it because they don't, which is a fine and valid reason and I can't argue against that.



But every single time you guys try spinning it as a failure of capability its just cringe.

This is an issue because Blizzard doesn't want to do it. Ion literally had an interview last week where he said why they weren't doing it. They don't want player power to be account wide. We're not spinning it. You are.

[Allinna]

So you are saying you can't spend a couple hours to bring your toon up to speed?

• It takes about ~30 or so minutes to do opening Nazjatar and get your HoA up to Level 50.
• A hour to do the cloak questline

That's ~1.5 hrs to hit Neck 50 and have 2 essences (which you can't use until 55). Go to Blood Mallet/Hero Damage/Icy Veins/etc and find out your top 4 essences you want, go grind them out and by then you'll be neck 75.

All of that you can do within ~3 hrs and have at least Rank 1 or 2 on most (which is good enough for vast majority of the stuff you'll do on an alt unless you plan on high end raiding / high end M+ on every alt).

So yeah, you are basically saying you can't spend a little bit of time getting your toon prepared. Yup, must be real hard to play an alt.

So for hunter the best essence is the Eternal Palace Raid one, thats what, 3 weeks+ on LFR, if LFR is still running as much as it was? And for minors Essence of the focusing Iris, which is the M+ one, and im sure i'll just JUMP right into a M+ with shit gear! Third is Breath of the dying which is at least easy to get through the cloak. Fourth is "Conflict and Strife" which means filling a conquest bar.

But this isn't a "Pop on a bam you're done" I have shit to do on the two main toons i run already. So no it's not a "little time" to get my toon prepared. So yeah it IS hard to play an alt.

[Dald]

I'm just not bothering with alts at all. Saves me time and I can knock out everything on my DH in no time, only having to do it once per day is actually kinda nice and then I move on doing other things. Pop back into the game for some pvp or any other extra stuff that sounds fun, then back to RL.

EDIT: NOT SAYING THE SYSTEM IS GOOD. IT'S FUCKING DUMB. I'M JUST USING IT FOR WHAT IT IS.

[arkanon]

Just wondering what everyones thoughts would be in this scenario:

Obtaining max Rank on an essence allows rank 1 to become BOA.

Thoughts? Arguments against?

[Powerogue]

Oof, been there. Though even the Black Empire intro questline gives me 2 rank 1 essences. Having enough essences to fill the slots isn't hard, but having them be anything but crappy rank 1 sure is. I'm struggling to get my rogue even just rank 2 of the adrenaline rush one because I'm swamped keeping up all the 8.3 stuff. I would not be against all ranks of essences being account wide.

I like essences for rewarding effort with clear progression, but they are definitely not alt friendly. I'm sure Blizzard is beating their heads against the wall right about now with "YEAH, THAT'S KIND OF THE POINT. THINGS CAN'T BE BOTH."

[arkanon]

Oof, been there. Though even the Black Empire intro questline gives me 2 rank 1 essences. Having enough essences to fill the slots isn't hard, but having them be anything but crappy rank 1 sure is. I'm struggling to get my rogue even just rank 2 of the adrenaline rush one because I'm swamped keeping up all the 8.3 stuff. I would not be against all ranks of essences being account wide.

I like essences for rewarding effort with clear progression, but they are definitely not alt friendly. I'm sure Blizzard is beating their heads against the wall right about now with "YEAH, THAT'S KIND OF THE POINT. THINGS CAN'T BE BOTH."

Damned if they do, Damned if they dont. Personally, i preferred a system where you leveled your character to max level, and then started progressing through your chosen content (raiding, world content, pvp) and that was that - linear gearing through doing the content you enjoyed. I dont enjoy HUGE amounts of our dmg / power coming from all these secondary systems. I personally dont like the essences, neck, corruption, cloak, or any of these additional systems of progression.

Maybe im just the old bastard yelling "back in my day.....also, get off my lawn!", but i do miss the simpler days were gearing was linear and less complex.

[Lucetia]

So for hunter the best essence is the Eternal Palace Raid one, thats what, 3 weeks+ on LFR, if LFR is still running as much as it was? And for minors Essence of the focusing Iris, which is the M+ one, and im sure i'll just JUMP right into a M+ with shit gear! Third is Breath of the dying which is at least easy to get through the cloak. Fourth is "Conflict and Strife" which means filling a conquest bar.

But this isn't a "Pop on a bam you're done" I have shit to do on the two main toons i run already. So no it's not a "little time" to get my toon prepared. So yeah it IS hard to play an alt.

This illustrates part of the main problem as you have the essences wrong (some right, some wrong). People thinking which essences are the ones they absolutely need and not needing at all. Granted these are all done with boss + adds figured in since Patchwerk type fights aren't that common. The other problem is most people don't realize Worldvein is pretty strong for them and don't run it. If they were to run it more often then that would guarantee more of the +3 especially.

Since I'm not sure of your spec here are the differences for each one rather than your specific. As you can see from the list below CLF isn't the top or main essence of any spec. It's usable, yes, but not top.

• Majors
  
  • Vision of Perfection Rank 1-2 takes 2 heroic Mechagon runs and some parts. The only problem here is getting the part you get from dailies which takes two days. Once you craft it then Rank 3 drops and you can spam M+2 and get all 4 parts in a day,
  • Worldvein Essence Rank 1 and 2 are done within about a hour. Rank 3 has the bottleneck of 3 weeks.
• Minors
  
  • Vision of perfection / Worldvein see above
  • Essence of the Focusing Iris you can get Rank 1 and 2 without much problems and start working on Rank 3 the same week. The Rank 3 varies on times depending on key level
  • Blood of the Enemy is the main time commitment one since need 30k Honor kills overall; personally I would say skip it unless you really wanted it
  • Conflict and Strife is another one that might be tricky since you have to wait to loot each week and Rank 2 and 3 needs rating
  • Purification Protocol Rank 1 heavily outweighs a lot so you could get buy with Rank 1 for a long while. This one shouldn't be that hard since the WQ gives 800, pet battles 75, the intro quests. Should be able to hit in within a hour (enough time to do material) or second day. Can use contract to speed up or Insignia if you have pattern unlock
  • Breath of the Dying Rank 1 still does pretty well. It's just Rank 2 / 3 are gated so that's the only downside.

So by the time you get 75 heart level unlock you should have a vast majority of that already. Having shit gear isn't the problem since you can hit 420 pretty easily by the time you are finished with the cloak quest line. You can fill in slots with pieces you got lucky from on World Bosses, etc. Run LFR or a M+0 and hit 430 pretty easily which people will take into at least M+4. M+7 you might need a little more gear or get lucky since you are ranged. Like next week is Sanguine and Quaking which are pretty easy for range to handle.

Beast Mastery:

• Major
  
  • Vision of Perfection (14,395 dps)
  • Blood of the Enemy (13,138 dps)
  • Essence of the Focusing Iris (12,043 dps)
• Minor
  
  • Vision of Perfection (7,627 dps)
  • Essence of the Focusing Iris (7,109 dps)
  • Worldvein Resonance +3 (5,634 dps) Note: This is top 4 in a lot of people's if there are 3 others with it so if people coordinate it should be doable
  • Blood of the Enemy minor (Rank 2 5,5542 dps / Rank 3 5,449 dps) -- Rank 2 here is fine
  • Conflict and Strife (5,022 dps)

Marksmanship:

• Major
  
  • Worldvein +3 (10,002 dps)
  • Blood of the Enemy (9,050 dps)
  • Purification Protocal (8,480 dps) Note: Rank 1 outperforms Rank 1 outperforms every single major by a major portion)
  • Essence of the Focusing Iris (8,107 dps)
• Minor
  
  • Worldvein +3 (5,182 dps)
  • Breath of the Dying (5,072 dps)
  • Purification Protocol (4,377 dps) Note: Rank 1 still a lot higher here
  • Confilict and Strife (4,016 dps)
  • Essence of the Focusing Iris (3,641 dps)

Survival:

• Major
  
  • Worldvein +3 (9,554 dps)
  • Essence of the Focusing Iris (9,380 dps)
  • Condensed Life-Force (8,539 dps)
  • Purification Protocol (7,508 dps) Note: Rank 1 beats everything here except Rank 2/3 Worldvein, Rank 3 Essence and Rank 2 and part of 3 Condensed
  • Worldvein +0 (7,189 dps)
• Minor
  
  • Worldvein +3 (4,472 dps)
  • Breath of the Dying (4,121 dps)
  • Purification Protocol (3,679 dps) Note: Rank 1 beats out everything but Rank 3 Worldvein/Breath
  • Conflict and Strife (3,347 dps)

Sources:

• Beast Mastery
• Marksmanship
• Survival

I'm struggling to get my rogue even just rank 2 of the adrenaline rush one because I'm swamped keeping up all the 8.3 stuff. I would not be against all ranks of essences being account wide.

That's weird. Vision Rank 2 only takes 10 minutes to get if you run Heroic. The only problem would be the 2 pieces you get from World Quests but you can knock those out in 5 minutes. Then you can get Rank 3 just by running 4 M+2's real quick. So you've spent maybe a hour to get Rank 3 total so it shouldn't detract you from 8.3 stuff at all unless you barely play during the week as is.

[Sharby]

Visions can be gotten as R3 in a single day as for some reason you can spam queue heroic without being locked out and the mats can be gotten for R2 in a day as well if you're lucky. Not to mention any m+ keys for workshop OR junkyard both drop sprockets.



Worldvein isn't only 3 weeks though, its 3 weeks to unlock the 3 missions which take days each to completely, its more like a month.

[Danvash]

MAUs? Lol

That doesn't stand for # of players logging in for several hours a day to grind something. It's just a measure of who has an active sub.

[Lucetia]

Worldvein isn't only 3 weeks though, its 3 weeks to unlock the 3 missions which take days each to completely, its more like a month.

It does take a month, but not quite how you think it does. Rank 1 you get at the end of your first Island Weekly Quest. Rank 2 is gotten by spamming islands (all done in the same week) then for the next 3 weeks you get 1 part of the map each week. Once you have all 3 maps it takes roughly 3-4 days. If it takes longer then you aren't countering things properly and reducing the time. Rank 4 I'm pretty sure doesn't exist since I've been doing islands every week and have yet to see the mission pop.

[Nozari]

It does take a month, but not quite how you think it does. Rank 1 you get at the end of your first Island Weekly Quest. Rank 2 is gotten by spamming islands (all done in the same week) then for the next 3 weeks you get 1 part of the map each week. Once you have all 3 maps it takes roughly 3-4 days. If it takes longer then you aren't countering things properly and reducing the time. Rank 4 I'm pretty sure doesn't exist since I've been doing islands every week and have yet to see the mission pop.

Rank 4 exists i got it after running maybe 3 weeks after rank 3. Its just rare to get it, my alt doesnt have it yet despite having rank 3.

[Lucetia]

Rank 4 exists i got it after running maybe 3 weeks after rank 3. Its just rare to get it, my alt doesnt have it yet despite having rank 3.

Yeah. I figured it does. I'm just salty over it since I've been running it every since you could get Rank 3 and still haven't seen it. I don't mind rare, but having something drop like a raid amount is just meh especially since it's just a cosmetic for the expansion. Making Rank 4's harder to get is fine, but RNG is meh. I know someone who got it their first week and they barely touch islands.

[Sharby]

It does take a month, but not quite how you think it does. Rank 1 you get at the end of your first Island Weekly Quest. Rank 2 is gotten by spamming islands (all done in the same week) then for the next 3 weeks you get 1 part of the map each week. Once you have all 3 maps it takes roughly 3-4 days. If it takes longer then you aren't countering things properly and reducing the time. Rank 4 I'm pretty sure doesn't exist since I've been doing islands every week and have yet to see the mission pop.

Still though, having to do that on alts is ridic, I have no idea why Blizzard just didn't put every essence behind content you can actively grind out, the timegating is the biggest flaw of Essences. Tell me to do 50 dungeons, I'll do it, tell me to do 30 islands, I'll do it, 15 bgs? Sure. But waiting an entire month for an essence? Really?

[Lucetia]

Still though, having to do that on alts is ridic, I have no idea why Blizzard just didn't put every essence behind content you can actively grind out, the timegating is the biggest flaw of Essences. Tell me to do 50 dungeons, I'll do it, tell me to do 30 islands, I'll do it, 15 bgs? Sure. But waiting an entire month for an essence? Really?

Why is that ridiculous? It's not different than having to grind out gear and waiting weeks for upgrades. Rank 1 and most 2's are easy to get. It's not unreasonable to ask for a little bit of grinding for a Rank 3 when it's equivalent to getting a slot of gear in terms of effort. Stop being lazy and put in a little time. Over the entire span of Rank 1 - 3 you do 20 Heroic Islands (give or take depending on if Normal/Mythic are involved). Islands themselves take ~10 minutes at most so you are only looking at ~3.33 hours for Rank 1-3.

[Sharby]

Why is that ridiculous? It's not different than having to grind out gear and waiting weeks for upgrades. Rank 1 and most 2's are easy to get. It's not unreasonable to ask for a little bit of grinding for a Rank 3 when it's equivalent to getting a slot of gear in terms of effort. Stop being lazy and put in a little time. Over the entire span of Rank 1 - 3 you do 20 Heroic Islands (give or take depending on if Normal/Mythic are involved). Islands themselves take ~10 minutes at most so you are only looking at ~3.33 hours for Rank 1-3.

1. I'm not lazy, enough with that please.


2. You have way less agency compared to gearing up because there are multiple avenues to acquire gear but Essences only have the one route they were assigned.


3. It isn't even a grind, its just a waiting game. Grinds are supposed to be things you can continuously chip away at your own pace, waiting for missions or weekly resets isn't a grind, its a boring wait with no engaging gameplay. Considering as you said islands don't even take brainpower, neither do rep dailies.


4. The work has already been done, the time has already been spent, I sincerely doubt there's a good argument as to why one has to do the same shit all over again. I'm all ears but I have yet to see it.

5. It doesn't matter how strong r1-r2 is because some essences have giant power gaps between R2/R3. Look at lucid dreams, the R2 is whatever compared to the huge vers boost you get from R3. You don't >need< it in the same vein a player didn't >need< good legendaries in Legion, but you absolute do need them to do any sort of competitive content.


EDIT: Being prevented from being able to be competitive regardless of how much you gear up because you didn't sit and wait long enough for a mission isn't good game design. Especially on an alt, Blizzard has already historically made essence-type systems BoA in the end game patch as well (Legion tokens.)

[Lucetia]

1. I'm not lazy, enough with that please.

If someone can't put in ~3 hours to gear an alt then it tends to be more laziness. Especially since people spend way more time getting a piece of gear that is more likely to be upgrade.

2. You have way less agency compared to gearing up because there are multiple avenues to acquire gear but Essences only have the one route they were assigned.

Not really. Most people still want specific ilvls and they still come very specific content. Just because you have a branch of M+ vs Raid doesn't change anything. You could run the contents for months and still never get an item in that slot. Essences on the other hand have specific goals that you'll get to regardless.

3. It isn't even a grind, its just a waiting game. Grinds are supposed to be things you can continuously chip away at your own pace, waiting for missions or weekly resets isn't a grind, its a boring wait with no engaging gameplay. Considering as you said islands don't even take brainpower, neither do rep dailies.

Grinds are things you do to achieve a goal whether there is gating or not. That's two different things. Some essences have Rank 1-3 grindable in a day or two. Otherwise are gated. It's a mixed bag and you make it sound like all are gated.

4. The work has already been done, the time has already been spent, I sincerely doubt there's a good argument as to why one has to do the same shit all over again. I'm all ears but I have yet to see it.

The same could be said about gear. So while we are at it why not let my alts have the same ilvl as my main? I mean the work was done, time spent. It's the same deal.

Rank 1-3 the way they are fine. If anything maybe reduce requirements by 25%. The only thing that should be account bound is Rank 4's, but that's due to them being more cosmetic based similar to unlocking a mount or transmog.

[Sharby]

The point was never what you have to do to reach point B but how you get there.



People hate grinding essences because the things you have to do for some of them is not engaging, timegated content that adds zero to player experience. There is no journey to be had, nothing is different from the first time I did it on my main. It isn't meaningful but necessary to do.

Having M+ vs Raid absolutely does change a lot, if I need to hit a certain DPS benchmark through ilvl I can either do raids for a chance at the best loot or do higher level M+ which rewards very competitive gear outside of a few slots(Azerite for example.) The raids are gated yes, but M+ isn't and that's the entire reason why gearing up alts isn't an issue. Players have agency in the paths they take to get to point B.

Essences for the most part have none of this agency, some like VoP are very easy to get, but a lot of strong ones are not. And essences that are timegated have zero player agency. 4800 follower XP is 4800 follower XP, there is nothing I can do to expedite the process even if I am dedicated, it is simply a boring waiting game, the dailies aren't challenging and from outdated content. This is the crux of the issue; you are forced to do boring content that adds nothing to play experience just to be on an even playing field with players who have it completed, which is perfectly okay if it is your first character, but extremely boneheaded on alts.


Gear isn't and will never be comparable to Essences because gearing up, especially in the higher ilvl tiers requires a certain degree of competence to achieve, thus if playing on an alt it adds to the player experience and is engaging because it has to be approached differently with a completely different playstyle in some aspects. My Destro Lock, Unholy DK, and Brewmaster play nothing alike, so I absolutely should have to be tested on my ability to play all three if I want to gear up each of them, which is completely fine, simply due to the fact that the content I am doing is engaging. And it still is fine despite being timegated because the content is enjoyable and again if I'm still thirsty for more I can do an alternative via M+.


EDIT: The arguments against BoA essences are very eerily similar to the arguments against making Legiondaries easy to get on alts. I was constantly told that I didn't >need< best in slot leggos to do content, but you absolutely did need them to be competitive in anything. The RNG aspect puts Legiondaries far under Essences as far as acquisition goes, but at the very least the more content I did, the faster acquiring them was to a point. BoA tokens aside, it was completely up to the player how much they wanted to do to get what they wanted and that's why I find that philosophy to be way better.