Mythic is too tight, guilds are dying

[Nurvus]

The real problem in the most recent expansions is that Heroic is far too easy, specially with all the Titanforge (and now Corrupted) stuff, and allows you to jump into Mythic far too early.

Think about it - Mythic just got out and you're already complaining it's too tight?

How loose should it be?
Want to beat bosses first week?
Expect to watch a video and beat the bosses or something?

[Baleful]

Now that's a total lie. It might be 30 minutes for people who get 75 in few weeks, but not for those who did it in week one. 30 minutes might be enough to do dailes in one invasion zone + minor vision, but that's a miniscule amount of AP. There's islands. Another invasion. AP world quests. Killing rares for even more AP. Mythic+. Horrific visions. It all adds up to a far larger amount than merely half an hour.

Got neck on 78 by just doing daylies, ap WQ and 3 expeditions/week plus raid, 4 hours/day top. Got an 8 hour/day work, 8 hours to sleep and there is still about 3 hours to spare every day, plus most of the shit can be done in weekends. As soon as i get 80 i can forget about AP and just do daylies (about 30 minutes) and raid, then about a month in we are finished with the tier and i have only 2 nights/week to clear the raid, implying i play only about 10 hours week max unless i want to play more on purpose. This is doable for anyone.

[Vulgrym]

3 Night guilds does not mean 3 nights, its 3 nights of raiding, 5-7 days of dalies/world quests and 1-3 days of m+ depending how early you are in the patch cycle.

This is disingenuous. The non-scheduled stuff is irrelevant, as it comes with significant flexibility. Your argument was that you have to give your life over to mythic. Part of the reason our guild was founded was for working professionals and students with heavy workloads that could bank on a set schedule.

The things they do on off days are largely activities they had been doing anyway - a bit of questing, dungeons or PvP, depending on preference.

Like I said, there are tons of guilds that do this now and you absolutely do NOT have to go HAM outside of raid hours to clear a mythic tier while getting cutting edge. Your argument just looks silly to anybody actually doing this at the moment.

[Marrilaife]

Now that's a total lie. It might be 30 minutes for people who get 75 in few weeks, but not for those who did it in week one. 30 minutes might be enough to do dailes in one invasion zone + minor vision, but that's a miniscule amount of AP. There's islands. Another invasion. AP world quests. Killing rares for even more AP. Mythic+. Horrific visions. It all adds up to a far larger amount than merely half an hour.

Tbh there are too many "mid core" guilds that tryhard way too much thinking they're Limit / Method. Sensible requirement would be 75 by the time mythic opened, no pressure to grind to 80, and be up to date on cloak upgrades. But no, there's always those people who believe to clear mythic even as some rank 800 guild that will need 5 months to do so, you have to nolife dailies, every event every day on invasion, clear visions with 5 masks asap and whatever else.

And yes, there are always idiots like that and there's always animosity in guilds because there's always some nolifer that's gonna whine others didn't nolife as much as him and "are dragging the guild down".

People who are "oh you don't have rank 3 essence from horrific visions? you aren't yet revered with the new factions?" seriously fuck off none of these are "mandatory" for mythic progression when average guild is gonna clear 3 bosses or less this week.

People need to understand there's a HUGE difference between "clear raid as world first", "clear raid in top 100" and "clear raid after 3 waves of nerfs and 6 months later" and btw the last one still counts as cutting edge. And guilds that don't achieve cutting edge but clear halfway still consider themselves mythic raiding guilds.

It's the same bullshit Asil was telling me earlier, you can't compare rank 100 and rank 1000 guild, yet both count as "mythic raiding". What's "piss easy" for top 100 might be very hard for 1000 ranked guild.

Tbh currently if there's a guild that struggles to get into mythic best thing they can do is clear heroic and normal and wish for corruptions, and ensure every raider does at least weekly m+ chest for guaranteed corruption. Rank 75 neck is also important, rest is absolutely small impact in comparison. Doing 1 m+ per week is what I'd consider very important, doing 3 invasion caches per week and 1-2 runs of major visions for cloak upgrade too, the rest you can skip if you have busy life and already 75 on neck.

People who spend hours grinding islands or new reps are imo wasting their time.

[KaPe]

Got neck on 78 by just doing daylies, ap WQ and 3 expeditions/week plus raid, 4 hours/day top. Got an 8 hour/day work, 8 hours to sleep and there is still about 3 hours to spare every day, plus most of the shit can be done in weekends. As soon as i get 80 i can forget about AP and just do daylies (about 30 minutes) and raid, then about a month in we are finished with the tier and i have only 2 nights/week to clear the raid, implying i play only about 10 hours week max unless i want to play more on purpose. This is doable for anyone.

So now it's 4 hours/day vs 30 minutes. That's 8 times as much time spent compared to previous claims. I'm not saying this is some insane grind, since it will be much shorter than in previous patches (thank God, I'm sick of world quests) but it's still a significant amount of time *on top* of actual raiding.

[Xath]

So now it's 4 hours/day vs 30 minutes. That's 8 times as much time spent compared to previous claims. I'm not saying this is some insane grind, since it will be much shorter than in previous patches (thank God, I'm sick of world quests) but it's still a significant amount of time *on top* of actual raiding.

That's 78 neck not 75. My alt warrior hit 75 neck just doing 30 mins of dailies and weekly island a couple of days ago. Realistically as long as you had your reps capped at double paragon which was very easy to do in the time leading up to the patch you could be 75 with very little work by mythic week. So yes 30 mins a day max.

[Baleful]

So now it's 4 hours/day vs 30 minutes. That's 8 times as much time spent compared to previous claims. I'm not saying this is some insane grind, since it will be much shorter than in previous patches (thank God, I'm sick of world quests) but it's still a significant amount of time *on top* of actual raiding.

Raid time was taken in account inside those 4 hours. Also i am on a semi-hardcore somewhat tryhard guild (we aim for top ~70), most guilds can complete the raid at a much slower and comfortable pace.

[GringoD]

The real problem in the most recent expansions is that Heroic is far too easy, specially with all the Titanforge (and now Corrupted) stuff, and allows you to jump into Mythic far too early.

Think about it - Mythic just got out and you're already complaining it's too tight?

How loose should it be?
Want to beat bosses first week?
Expect to watch a video and beat the bosses or something?

I think you underrestimate heroic a bit. Multiple thousand guilds just progress through that the whole tier.

Who are you talking to, btw? Who's complaining that Ny'alotha mythic is too tight right now? There was this one guy who said Wrathion is tight, but he acknowledged he was wrong.
No way we can accurately talk about tuning for the 1,5k to 3k range when barely any of them have killed N'zoth heroic yet. Wait a few months and we'll talk.

[apustus]

After reaching 6/12 mythic, day 1 Wrathion is still probably the tightest tuned fight so far.

[potis]

snip

This have been the case since 2005.

People dont understand their actual skill level, its nothing new.

You have people that simply dont understand basic Math.

They dont understand how Method did 300 pulls with 10-12 item levels less, as a raid group, on a boss that wasnt nerfed, and that the average guild that did the fight with 15 item levels more plus a 10% overall nerf to the fight, are not the same.

They simply dont understand, how Method has 14 DPS, lets say, everyone pulling 50K, which at that weekly progression, they are all 95-100% log players, and 3 months after, the other guild with +15 item levels, has 14 DPS, with 2 at 50K, instead of the 60K they should be, and the rest barely reaching 45K, despite the 60K should be doing.

So Method did 700K DPS, with 15 item levels less, and this guild is doing 640K with 15 item levels more, instead of 840K they should be doing, and they cant kill the boss, then magically, that amazing 10-20% nerf hits, and the boss dies..Go figure.

People dont like being told they are bad, so they will find whatever excuse to defend themselves.

"Its because our raid didnt farm the neck".

"Its because you people dont tryhard as much as XX and XX and cant do".

No, the answer is simple, you arent good enough to play comfortably at the level required to both take minimal damage, and deal maximum DPS as a raid group, so despite your insane gear advantage 3 months after, you still cant pull Method numbers and you are having difficulties unless its 10-20% nerfed boss.

AP farming helps but its not the issue, and its the same on every guild.

I lead a HC only guild/raid, i have people that farm more but arent good enough, half my raid deals 45-50K DPS, and the other half cant get past 35K, half of those 35K, are actually slackers also, so it aint surprising, but the other half of the 35K, have grinded more , they simply cant perform as much for different reasons.

[Nurvus]

Who are you talking to, btw? Who's complaining that Ny'alotha mythic is too tight right now?

Did you read the Thread title?

- - - Updated - - -

The OP was talking about Eternal Palace in mid-December.

Yet my reply is relevant now as well.
Players have gotten used to clearing things faster and faster, and seem to have a distorted expectation of what a healthy balance between difficulty vs reward should be.

[Marrilaife]

I lead a HC only guild/raid, i have people that farm more but arent good enough, half my raid deals 45-50K DPS, and the other half cant get past 35K, half of those 35K, are actually slackers also, so it aint surprising, but the other half of the 35K, have grinded more , they simply cant perform as much for different reasons.

On "heroic only" guild there's literally no point to enforce farming. "Heroic only" meaning you never go into mythic so heroic content is meant to occupy the guild and give them content for the next few months. By the time people learn strats and reach the later bosses they'll get enough gear and corruptions to carry their normally low dps, so if they learn what are the 1-shot mechanics and how to avoid them, bosses will die.

Mythic guilds look at a different time frame, and they should clear heroic week 1, especially when in this tier Wrathion mythic isn't a push-over and hc Nzoth isn't brutal (it was common for guilds to not kill hc KJ in tomb until they killed 2-3 bosses on mythic, because hc KJ was much harder, it was also common for people to zerg mythic Taloc / Champion of the Light before getting curve because these were so easy they didn't deserve to be called mythic).

Imo Wrathion mythic being clearly harder than hc Nzoth is actually a step in the correct direction. People should feel mythic is a step up from heroic. Especially on tier with no titanforge, I wouldn't wanna see loot pinata chugging 475s out.

What I don't understand is why mythic Skitra is such a joke, but I guess people deserve some free loot after passing Wrathion.

But nope, I think it's too early for anyone to call for nerfs, since there's plenty of gear to obtain especially farming m+ for 465s, so guilds that are "stuck" on Wrathion this week might be able to kill him much easier next week.

[potis]

On "heroic only" guild there's literally no point to enforce farming. "Heroic only" meaning you never go into mythic so heroic content is meant to occupy the guild and give them content for the next few months. By the time people learn strats and reach the later bosses they'll get enough gear and corruptions to carry their normally low dps, so if they learn what are the 1-shot mechanics and how to avoid them, bosses will die.

Its an example, "Mythic" guilds are the same in their majority, what you described is how most "Mythic" guilds work, especially past the top 800+ range.

No one is enforcing anyone to farm, some people simply do it cause lots of free time, or its how they play, majority of "HC" guilds, is burnt out Mythic raiders and not "mythic" raiders, the mentality to be decent doesnt change, the mentality to wipe 300 times on the same boss because little billy thinks he is a Mythic raider, does.

[Onikaroshi]

No one is enforcing anyone to farm, some people simply do it cause lots of free time, or its how they play, majority of "HC" guilds, is burnt out Mythic raiders and not "mythic" raiders, the mentality to be decent doesnt change, the mentality to wipe 300 times on the same boss because little billy thinks he is a Mythic raider, does.

Very true, or those of us who preferred the more tight knit 10 man raiding and got shafted with the move to mythic and just want to keep that more relaxed, small raid, atmosphere.

[Marrilaife]

majority of "HC" guilds, is burnt out Mythic raiders and not "mythic" raiders, the mentality to be decent doesnt change, the mentality to wipe 300 times on the same boss because little billy thinks he is a Mythic raider, does.

Dunno man, anecdotal evidence and all, I can't confirm the feeling that "majority" of heroic progressing guilds are retired mythic raiders that just wanna blast through the place. From my experience "majority" of heroic progressing guilds are casuals i.e. if you're a bad player but someone's friend, you're in, if you come drunk to the raids it's fine, if you go afk 20 mins in the middle of the raid no probs everyone has a life, etc. That's why flex normal / hc was a godsend because these guilds rarely have fixed roster and people with as high attendance as mythic guilds.

The upside is if you're new, clueless or bad player you WILL eventually get curve in those guilds while you might never get it through pugging because you'd be declined or kicked endlessly. It usually has some very patient GM that is gonna explain everyone every tactic (instead of expecting people to watch a video or read a strat summary) and often overly analyze every wipe. Half the time it feels like it's not a raid leader but raid's mom.

I can imagine to some players this is a fairly good situation to be in. Obviously not to those who want to be fast & efficient and not spend hundreds of wipes and months of progress before they achieve curve. But yeah, for example I have some friend of friend in "heroic" guild, they're 7 normal after 2 weeks. At least they won't run out of content any time soon.

But yeah, at this level I wouldn't expect neck or cloak levels to matter, at all. If some people want to farm because they find it fun, obviously nobody forbids them. But I wouldn't expect the guild leadership to ask people to meet specific cloak / neck levels.

If your guild is set up differently, then yeah, you can't compare these experiences. Personally I just found it very hard to find that kind of guild, every time I had to step down from mythic raiding and joined a heroic guild the amount of time waste and carefree attitude towards performance pushed me back into mythic raiding again. And by mythic raiding I mean "at least cutting edge by the end of the tier", otherwise yeah, the attitudes often are closer to a heroic guild.

However what's worst of both worlds are guilds that should be casual, but tryhard too much. I have a friend who returned after a break and joined a guild that ended up 6/8mythic in EP. Holy shit, the amount of tryharding. Adding extra raids. Extending raids 2h extra (so making 5h raid out of planned 3h). Going to kill hc Nzoth with a 10 man group so they can boast they did it, because they know the other 10+ people are not good enough to kill it week 1 without extra gear. Having super convoluted rank system and guild ruleset (I mean in most guilds I were in there were ranks gm / officer / raider / trial / social, they have 2-3 extras within the raider structure, something like priority raider, ordinary raider and backup raider... wtf).

I think this is literally the quintessence of "avoid like the plague". It's fine to be casual and go yolo some content. It's fine to not want to bother with mythic yet try to be efficient with heroic. It's fine to tryhard if you're aiming high and can achieve it, and the guild has competitive outlook and attracts similarly oriented players. But it's not fine when you're clearly composed of low skill players and pretend you're "aiming high", that's a straight way to burn out your players and spark resentment when clearly unrealistic, yet loudly trumpeted goals aren't met.

In the end, every guild is different I guess.

[potis]

snip

Everything you said is true pretty much, its just different situations and yeah, there are tons of tryhard "Mythic" guilds, hence why i use " " to describe them.

Extra raids, stupid requirements, but the overall skill level is so low, that their hope is literally bruteforcing, the same way Vanilla/TBC/Wotlk raiding was.

And yeah,i was slightly wrong using the term "majority" of HC guilds, i am guessing because i am on a highly populated server that we have more than a few of "HC only guilds" it seems like the case when it probably isnt for the game itself.

And i never ask my raiders to farm anything, as i said before,they do it because rivalry and banter, and then the other half of the raid that didnt even have 70 neck when the patch hit, despite having an active sub, and clearing HC EP for like 5 months (most boring period ever).

But things werent always like this, my bias about HC guilds mostly comes from the fact that the last 2-2.5 raid tiers i have random ex-mythic raiders asking me to join quite regularly, i think its because actual HC guilds that arent complete cancer, cause either fake-tryharding Mythic eventually or insanely bad HC raiding, are hard to find.

Or they simply dont last long because inactivity.

[shyguybman]

Tbh there are too many "mid core" guilds that tryhard way too much thinking they're Limit / Method. Sensible requirement would be 75 by the time mythic opened, no pressure to grind to 80, and be up to date on cloak upgrades. But no, there's always those people who believe to clear mythic even as some rank 800 guild that will need 5 months to do so, you have to nolife dailies, every event every day on invasion, clear visions with 5 masks asap and whatever else.

And yes, there are always idiots like that and there's always animosity in guilds because there's always some nolifer that's gonna whine others didn't nolife as much as him and "are dragging the guild down".

I wouldn't really call them idiots just because they try harder or put more time into the game than their guildmates. It's like saying they are dumb for wanting to perform well in the raid. My guild (not raiding mythic this tier cuz we lost too many) is one of those that take 5 months to clear the raid and only do it ONE time before the next tier is out. We've never had an actual neck requirement just do a +10 and islands every week but obviously some of us play the game more and go above and beyond that. I've kept up 3-4 alts the entire expansion with gear, ap, essences etc. and I have guildies that can't even do the bare minimum on ONE.

I don't shit on them for not doing it, but that doesn't mean it isn't frustrating when you can't meet some DPS check that people were doing 2 months ago with 10 less ilvl because of how inconsistent your raiders are. Obviously just playing better is the answer but that's hard for people who raid log, and don't come prepared ie: never looking at a video of a boss. People having higher necks or the next rank of their essence counteract that inconsistency, like hitting 65 in EP was huge as far as dps output goes.

[GringoD]

Did you read the Thread title?

Yes. I'm the one who made it. Did you at all notice that the creation date was well before Ny'alotha came out? Nobody talked about mythic Ny'alotha being too tight yet, which is why I was asking you who you're talking to.

[dreamdaddy]

As someone who was in a guild that slumped from top 100 US to top 1000 US, our issue was that people would refuse to learn fights out of laziness or procrastination. They would rather wipe an extra 200 times than spend 30 minutes reviewing charts, reading up on mechanics, and adopting the strategies that officers laid out for them.

[deenman]

Thunder and Warforging were limited to +5 Ilvl's which is a big deal because then its just a little fun bonus you can get and not something you grind for over and over because some dungeon trinket is BiS if it procs Titanforging multiple times.

it was +6,but yeah much better than legions +70