Screw corrupted gear

[Onikaroshi]

Again, this is what I'm saying and why I'm saying it's bad. They shouldn't HAVE the possibility of doing crap like this. It ruins the competitive aspect for people like me who don't have the support network necessary. That parse isn't that dude's solo skill. It is his whole fucking raid's parse. But does that matter? Whos name is next to it? How can you even respect the competition with stuff like this?

"You can't"

Yeah, duh, which is why I quit and why it is stupid. I'm looking for this game's raid scene to serve as another on my long list of activities I pack my life with in the form of a competition I can ego stroke to. They're systematically demolishing that with this type of crap. Only problem is I've had the pleasure of enjoying it in a more pure form and don't want them to change it. So, I complain.

Ranked parses have always been from doing stupid shit that most guilds won't let you do.

[BeepBoo]

Ranked parses have always been from doing stupid shit that most guilds won't let you do.

Incorrect, but go on.

[Onikaroshi]

Incorrect, but go on.

Uh huh, no, it's very correct.

[BeepBoo]

So the game should change because you can't manage to do what someone else can. Gotcha.

Nope. You're not understanding. This game is a solo dunk competition and healers stepping in and carrying your ass is like a group of people hauling a trampoline under you when it's your turn while the rest of us have to use our own god-given talent and that's it.

That's the point. The game should be as close to 100% personal skill base as possible for extracting performance.

It isn't about competing it is about having what others can do so you have the illusion of a competition.

Again, you're wrong.

If you can't manage to use the tools of the game to compete then that is on you.

This is entirely about the tools available to any given player being uneven. Imagine being in a 100 meter dash, and you just have your normal body while other people get cars, planes, etc. It's no longer a race you can compete in. The point is to CONSTRAIN it in such a way that it's a reflection of your skill, not your gear, not your support network.

And not any system. Your argument is basically saying because a LFR player can't compete with a Mythic raider then no one should be able to do more than the LFR raider.

In an ideal world where gear is irrelevant, yes. If the person doing LFR has the same mechanical skill as the mythic raider, they should do the same damage.

You keep trying to say you love to compete. You love to have fun. Yet all you are doing is whining that someone else was able to do more then you and you don't have the friends/guild/whatever to do the same.

I love solo competitions. I abhor team sports. Wow used to be just fine for solo-minded individuals in less-than-rockstar guilds. It's very clearly not any more, and is pushing even FURTHER away from it with introduction of crap like this.

That is silly. Of course if you don't have the same tools you won't be doing the same job. So compete with those who have the same tools. Don't compete with the CEO when you are just the doorman.

And who is responsible for controlling and enabling tool distribution? Oh, right, blizzard. They could do what they did to PVP and use stat templates. That'd be a step in the right direction.

They are not demolishing anything. This "crap" has always existed. There have always been ways to pad the meters. So stop crying that you can't play the game the same way and instead want the game changed. Just play the game that you claim your ego craves. Lol.

My ability to pad meters in the past relied less and less on my team to enable me to do that. usually, the cheese strats for bosses that padded meters were the EASIEST way of doing the fight as well.

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Uh huh, no, it's very correct.

Define "most guilds" because, for as long as I can remember, even my scrub guild would do dumb shit like aoe facepull crabs on Skorpyron, etc. So, unless you're talking about the vast majority of sub-scrub-tier "normal people" guilds that don't have a snowball's chance in hell in even finishing the raid on normal difficulty then no... you're wrong. Basically any cheese method that has existed is abused and used by every PUG clear of every raid.

TL;DR: "Stupid shit" that "pads meters" is not only what most guilds LET you do, it's what most PUGs DEMAND you do, or they fucking kick you for being incompetent and not in the meta.

[Onikaroshi]

Define "most guilds" because, for as long as I can remember, even my scrub guild would do dumb shit like aoe facepull crabs on Skorpyron, etc. So, unless you're talking about the vast majority of sub-scrub-tier "normal people" guilds that don't have a snowball's chance in hell in even finishing the raid on normal difficulty then no... you're wrong. Basically any cheese method that has existed is abused and used by every PUG clear of every raid.

Then you wouldn't have a problem doing this cheese method either if even your "scrub guild" would do stupid shit to have someone rank.

[rhorle]

Incorrect, but go on.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/5#boss=1603

So 144k dps compared to 99k second and 67 for fifth is not a "Gaming of the system"? There has always been people, or encounters, that have been used to game the system to increase the rankings. If you won't accept that fact then that is your issue. But it happens, has happened, and will happen no matter what system Blizzard uses for gear.

[Onikaroshi]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/5#boss=1603

So 144k dps compared to 99k second and 67 for fifth is not a "Gaming of the system"? There has always been people, or encounters, that have been used to game the system to increase the rankings. If you won't accept that fact then that is your issue. But it happens, has happened, and will happen no matter what system Blizzard uses for gear.

god i miss mop tank cheesing for ranks... i love you vengeance, please come back to me /sob

[BeepBoo]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/5#boss=1603

So 144k dps compared to 99k second and 67 for fifth is not a "Gaming of the system"? There has always been people, or encounters, that have been used to game the system to increase the rankings. If you won't accept that fact then that is your issue. But it happens, has happened, and will happen no matter what system Blizzard uses for gear.

Again, "gaming" the encounter is entirely the point. The "gaming" has never been this big... or this inaccessible to skilled players who just happen to be in shit raid guilds. This is the first time the game has necessitated you have an entire support network strictly to enable you to get top tier.

I skipped WOD and only hard core raided in WOTLK, Legion, and the first half of BFA. I can't talk to other things like seige of org.

So, to cover it again...

In the past as a skilled player in a scrub guild I could still get 99th percentiles (scrub guild being a relative term here, we were top on the server, but something pathetic like 1200th in the world or something)

I cannot do that now. I would have no hope. The gaming of corruption gear is too large and relies too much on outside support to make it happen.

What we will see now is a lot more of this gaming of this magnitude, which will entirely swing parses in favor of whoever can run the most corrupted gear and away from "who is best at button mashing and maneuvering their character." Whatever was going on in that siege link is very few and far between from the history I can recall. It was an exception.

This corrupted gear stuff is ABSOLUTELY without a doubt going to be the rule.

[rhorle]

Nope. You're not understanding. This game is a solo dunk competition and healers stepping in and carrying your ass is like a group of people hauling a trampoline under you when it's your turn while the rest of us have to use our own god-given talent and that's it.

So you routinely did your raids solo? Oh right. You keep changing the rules in order to keep your ego intact. It wasn't you who failed it was everyone else cheating. It wasn't you who couldn't use the same game mechanics to rank. It was everyone else who was cheating that stopped you from ranking. Insane parses have always required special requirements to make happen.

That is why you don't go off of the clearly set up logs. You go off of the normal fight logs.

This is entirely about the tools available to any given player being uneven

No it isn't. Because you keep trying to compare people who don't have the same tools as if it is one race. Of course people that have a better guild will be able to better things. Just like you could do better then other guilds and players. Because you had access to different things. But instead of playing with in your league you keep whining because a different league has a different ranking. It is dumb. You are whining because the NFL has different stats then the NBA who in turn have different stats then the PGA.

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Again, "gaming" the encounter is entirely the point. The "gaming" has never been this big... or this inaccessible to skilled players who just happen to be in shit raid guilds. This is the first time the game has necessitated you have an entire support network strictly to enable you to get top tier.

Sure it has. Gaming always required luck in getting the right drops. If you are a terrible raid guild you wouldn't be parsing anyways because your guild, those who support any logs, are terrible. You keep trying to compare apples to potatoes. You have always needed an entire support network to get to the top tier because you can never solo current raids. Duh.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/6#boss=1723

Are you really claiming that only one mage was able to get 20k higher then all others with out luck and a support network in place? If it was just skill then everyone could replicate it. Insane parses have always required the same thing. Luck, and a raid group, to support it. That is why if you really care about "top" you don't include the outliers aka the insane ones.

[BeepBoo]

god i miss mop tank cheesing for ranks... i love you vengeance, please come back to me /sob

Vengeance was fucking stupid, as was reck bombing in vanilla. Anything like that is a system I've bitched about as well. I will bitch about any and every "exploit" that does something like this, but corrupted gear is entirely different. It's not even an exploit. It is designed to work the way it is currently working, and what it enables and impacts is stupid as fuck to me.

[rhorle]

Vengeance was fucking stupid, as was reck bombing in vanilla. Anything like that is a system I've bitched about as well. I will bitch about any and every "exploit" that does something like this, but corrupted gear is entirely different. It's not even an exploit. It is designed to work the way it is currently working, and what it enables and impacts is stupid as fuck to me.

The difference is you are arbitrarily applying different rules just to hate on corruption. Which is dumb. If mechanics work a certain way they were no more different then corruption working a certain way. Mechanics can sometimes be cheesed. It is why you can ignore some mechanics once you can out heal them or have enough DPS. Because things have always been able to be cheesed with the right set up.

Literally nothing has changed about the game.

[Onikaroshi]

Vengeance was fucking stupid, as was reck bombing in vanilla. Anything like that is a system I've bitched about as well. I will bitch about any and every "exploit" that does something like this, but corrupted gear is entirely different. It's not even an exploit. It is designed to work the way it is currently working, and what it enables and impacts is stupid as fuck to me.

I mean, Vengeance was designed to increase your AP based on damage taken, so it was designed to work the way it did. And it was fun as fuck.

[BeepBoo]

So you routinely did your raids solo? Oh right. You keep changing the rules in order to keep your ego intact. It wasn't you who failed it was everyone else cheating. It wasn't you who couldn't use the same game mechanics to rank. It was everyone else who was cheating that stopped you from ranking. Insane parses have always required special requirements to make happen.

"special requirements" being "how the raid was routinely fucking done" apparently?
I digress. They will require more special requirements now than they did, and it will become even more inaccessible than it had been, and the parses will be even more havily swayed and influenced than they ever have. The disparity that is due to something other than skill is the problem. "It's always existed!" magnitude matters. It's worse now than ever, and therefore deserves more shit talking than ever.

Sure it has. Gaming always required luck in getting the right drops. If you are a terrible raid guild you wouldn't be parsing anyways because your guild, those who support any logs, are terrible. You keep trying to compare apples to potatoes. You have always needed an entire support network to get to the top tier because you can never solo current raids. Duh.

Try to follow me.

Getting 99th in a raid of 50s or 70s was possible and likely. The minimum support required to attain attempts at cheese tactics wasn't so demanding.
Now, it is far more demanding, and even LESS reliant on personal skill. Probably by a large margin.

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The difference is you are arbitrarily applying different rules just to hate on corruption.

Nope, it works like this:

Does it increase the correlation coefficient of personal skill-to-performance? Good! Well designed!
Does it decrease the correlation coefficient of personal skill-to-performance? Bad! Horrible design!

Nothing arbitrary at all. "The game has ALWAYS been like this" is straight ignoring the magnitude and nuance that exists within the situation. That's called an appeal to tradition. Just because the game has always had dumb shit like this doesn't mean it should continue to, and it doesn't mean it wasn't less pronounced in the past, either.

Literally nothing has changed about the game.

No, you're right. Not like the entire corrupted system was just added or anything.

[rhorle]

Nothing arbitrary at all. "The game has ALWAYS been like this" is straight ignoring the magnitude and nuance that exists within the situation. That's called an appeal to tradition. Just because the game has always had dumb shit like this doesn't mean it should continue to, and it doesn't mean it wasn't less pronounced in the past, either

You just got done saying that it has always existed. It is just more work to set up the insane parses. I am not ignoring any nuance that exists with in the situation. Insane parses have always required luck or setup. Nothing has changed about it that with the game. Only the tools you use to get those insane parses have changed. And if you are interested in top parsing you either aim for "normal" game play ranking or "set up" game play ranking.

You keep trying to claim you were the first while arguing the second ruins the game with corruption. A mechanic you won't even experience yet still hurts your ego apparently. Because you wouldn't be able to obtain it even if you were playing since your support system isn't good enough. This isn't a corruption issue. It is a you issue.

The only reason why a few can do insane parses now is because corruption hasn't equalized yet. Further into the expansion more will be getting good corruptions, or stacking different combinations, where these early crazy parses are meaningless. Unless you are an ex-player with ego issues.

[BeepBoo]

This isn't a corruption issue. It is a you issue.

Completely an issue caused by corruption.

If they would go back to tier gear, a'la WOTLK, this conversation would be nonexistent.

The only reason why a few can do insane parses now is because corruption hasn't equalized yet.

False. All that needs to be is the possibility for me to see it as faulty, but I'm willing to wager there will be live cases as well... whereby someone out there won't get the parse they would if gear were a non-issue. Which is to say they won't get the parse they deserve.

Further into the expansion more will be getting good corruptions, or stacking different combinations, where these early crazy parses are meaningless. Unless you are an ex-player with ego issues.

Unless you think there will eventually be a point where everyone is capped out and cannot possibly get any more corruption, and they also have enough resistance to make corruption's negatives 0 or near 0, this won't be the case and there will always be disparity. I suppose they ARE leaving players hanging for a FULL FUCKING YEAR, so maybe we will get there? Idk. I'm not willing to wait that long. Competition is best and most fierce when it's fresh. 3 months is when raid tiers start to lose interest.

[boz0]

In fact if you don't have a good corrupted piece I seriously question how much content you do.

Feel free to question.
Also feel free to look up RNG on your search engine of choice, and calculate the chances of getting a decent corruption trait per M+ run.

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I'm slowing coming around to the corruption system. The issue is the acquisition method being randomized. However, it is an improvement on Titanforging.

Here's why:

- There's a cap on how much corruption you can realistically use without significantly impacting your group by getting yourself in trouble

That's the big upside of the system, I really can't complain about that, it's actually a fairly good idea.
What irks me is the 7000% difference between the lowest and highest trait (for single target DH).

[The Butt Witch]

Isn't it wonderful when some dude with shit trinkets and 10 item levels lower is doing more dps than you because he found Infinite Stars corruption on the playground?

[Aphrel]

And at the end of it, Legion is still viewed rather favorably by players. Still not seeing what the problem is. The prior 2 expansions also had '*forged' gear based on an RNG system, and there wasn't a huge outcry about it.

Is it that a non raider can effectively become as geared as a raider with the correct focus on the correct content? There's all sorts of player-exclusionary tools out there to ensure that this is a non issue, so I'm not sure why anyone really cares about that.

Prior to all these expansions, gear was FAR more static, and you were either raiding, or you weren't. And each group of players would very loudly complain that after a certain point in the week, there was "nothing to do"... because there wasn't.

So which scenario is worse for the player?

You are missing the point entirely.

The problem isnt the existance of corrupted gear, nor was the problem the existance of legendarys in legion.

Its the aquisition of it either that is bullshit. Theres no reliable way to farm for the corrupt you need. Its basicly a slot machine each reset, either your lucky or your fucked and will remain a useless ancor on the raid for another reset, and theres nothing you can do about it.
Given how powerful these are, it becomes absolutely mandatory to have a good corrupt.

Funny thing that you brought up mop and wod, because that was a 100% reliable way to farm the legendarys in those Qlines. No player was fucked by rng and ended up being usless in the raid for entire teirs because of bad luck.

Immagine if wod and mop isntead had a chest with a 1/50 (there are exactly 51 possible corruption outcomes atm) chance of giving you those insanely op legendarys with 1 chance per week. How would that go down do you think? Would you enjoy playing hellfire citade without the ring for an entire year? with other ppl in the raid having it and outpreforming you by miles? It would ahve been an absolutely dogshit system. Just as the current corruption system is.

It has nothing to do with ahrdcores vs casuals, it has nothing to do with raiders vs non-raiders.
It has to do with a system based on pure fucking luck and nothing else. No player agency whatsoever. We might aswell be playing yatzy.

[Miseration]

Its pure luck and nothing else. RNG huh.. just like War/titanforged was.

[Curaga]

So what is the dps difference between you and the top guy

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Can someone explain to me how having three mechanics that you and your healers have to play around is not related to skill

And I can guarantee you that sub optimal specs do not wipe raids

Dps checks are all around. So playing a suboptimal spec can wipe raids. More damage == decreased lenght of fight == less mana strain on healers etc.

I agree with the fact that ofcourse healing does require skills and healing people with insane amounts of corruption is even more fun. Looking at dps though, 10k+ difference in DPS that comes not from skill but from RNG lotery doesn't. You did what exactly skillwise to get that? Obviously apart from getting the gear itself (which in a way is also luck/rng). That being said; How the hell does it work that gear with 15-20 ilvls higher is not worth it, because of not having the right corruption effect?

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You are missing the point entirely.

The problem isnt the existance of corrupted gear, nor was the problem the existance of legendarys in legion.

Its the aquisition of it either that is bullshit. Theres no reliable way to farm for the corrupt you need. Its basicly a slot machine each reset, either your lucky or your fucked and will remain a useless ancor on the raid for another reset, and theres nothing you can do about it.
Given how powerful these are, it becomes absolutely mandatory to have a good corrupt.

Funny thing that you brought up mop and wod, because that was a 100% reliable way to farm the legendarys in those Qlines. No player was fucked by rng and ended up being usless in the raid for entire teirs because of bad luck.

Immagine if wod and mop isntead had a chest with a 1/50 (there are exactly 51 possible corruption outcomes atm) chance of giving you those insanely op legendarys with 1 chance per week. How would that go down do you think? Would you enjoy playing hellfire citade without the ring for an entire year? with other ppl in the raid having it and outpreforming you by miles? It would ahve been an absolutely dogshit system. Just as the current corruption system is.

It has nothing to do with ahrdcores vs casuals, it has nothing to do with raiders vs non-raiders.
It has to do with a system based on pure fucking luck and nothing else. No player agency whatsoever. We might aswell be playing yatzy.

Exactly, because Blizzard does take corruption effects into account when they calculate bosshealth etc. Does it mean that it's unkillable with having ony 20% of the raid geared with the luck RNG pieces in comparison with 70%? No, but makes life a lot easier!