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  1. #521
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    Hillary beat Sanders before superdelegates. Sanders lost because he couldn’t win gap opening victories against Hillary like Obama did in 2008. He could only muster Marginal wins and losses to large losses in delegate rich states.

    This year, super delegates will almost certainly NOT get a chance to vote that matters to new Democratic rules. But Bernie will probably lose the nomination to the same reason. He needs win big in places that, right now, he is looking to lose big or win narrowly.

    Think if it like this. All the candidates are cups with a line that says 1900 (exact number escapes me). Every stare is 50 different cups with different colored beads in it per state. Each bead represents 1 delegate. When you’re diving the huge number of red beads of Texas 63-37 in Biden’s favor (as an example), how is Bernie supposed to win when he can only claim by comparison almost the exact number of green beads from California as his competitors and a small handful of blue beads by comparison from North Dakota. He needs a big state that gives him a lot of beads and gives Biden few beads to cancel out Texas.

    I will literally buy beads and cups and illustrate this if it is what it takes to get the point across. Not joking.
    I mean, you’re obviously right, but I don’t know why you keep saying Sanders is going to narrowly win California, and lose Texas big. In all likelihood he’ll win California by a similar margin than Biden wins Texas. Those two will be about a wash. All the other Southern states are where Biden will eventually pull ahead like you’re describing.

    But if Biden ends up 4th here, and another similar showing in NH, people could freak out and shift to Pete or Bloomberg as the main option against Bernie. In that scenario, Bernie doesn’t lose any of these states by as much as he’d lose to Biden. Bernie wins easily if it’s somehow not Biden.
    Last edited by Fabray; 2020-02-04 at 12:46 PM.

  2. #522
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    Well the DNC certainly fucked up this kick off, pretty incompetent of them to not be able to count votes.
    The DNC doesn’t run the Iowa caucus.

    Fortunately, compulsive bad faith arguing is a treatable condition and would be covered under Medicare For All.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  3. #523
    Merely a Setback Adam Jensen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommunismWillWin View Post
    Only in America would they use a sketchy/shitty app to hold an election.
    There's a lot of "only in America"'s that's been pissing me off the past few years. For at least as long as I've been an adult.
    Putin khuliyo

  4. #524
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    There's a lot of "only in America"'s that's been pissing me off the past few years. For at least as long as I've been an adult.
    All I can think of is Bong Joon-Ho saying “perhaps this is something western audiences could also partake in” whenever I see an election going over smoothly elsewhere, lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  5. #525
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    What have either of those things to do with the fact the numbers weren’t there for Bernie regardless of superdelegates.
    https://www.yourdictionary.com/rigged

    Did suddenly words change meaning for you guys?

    The process was influenced unfairly to get a desired outcome. As in a Hillary nomination. It wasn't an impartial or fair process. The numbers that came out of the process were tainted. Making the whole process tainted.

    What the fuck is happening here? Holy shit, I can't believe I'm having this conversation.

    This is why we fucking lost in 2016. People being fucking disgusted by the DNC.

  6. #526
    Quote Originally Posted by Hextor View Post
    The DNC apologism is almost as funny as trumpism. See what I did here?
    Because protecting a man who conspired with foreign powers to steal elections and spy on American citizens is the same as the DNC.

  7. #527
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    Hillary beat Sanders before superdelegates. Sanders lost because he couldn’t win gap opening victories against Hillary like Obama did in 2008. He could only muster Marginal wins and losses to large losses in delegate rich states.

    This year, super delegates will almost certainly NOT get a chance to vote that matters to new Democratic rules. But Bernie will probably lose the nomination to the same reason. He needs win big in places that, right now, he is looking to lose big or win narrowly.

    Think if it like this. All the candidates are cups with a line that says 1900 (exact number escapes me). Every stare is 50 different cups with different colored beads in it per state. Each bead represents 1 delegate. When you’re diving the huge number of red beads of Texas 63-37 in Biden’s favor (as an example), how is Bernie supposed to win when he can only claim by comparison almost the exact number of green beads from California as his competitors and a small handful of blue beads by comparison from North Dakota. He needs a big state that gives him a lot of beads and gives Biden few beads to cancel out Texas.

    I will literally buy beads and cups and illustrate this if it is what it takes to get the point across. Not joking.
    At this point, I can totally see you doing a Penn & Teller-style video.

  8. #528
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    https://twitter.com/jaylencavil/stat...31122354298881


    Can anybody tell the US how democracy is supposed to work?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    At this point, I can totally see you doing a Penn & Teller-style video.
    Skroe doing a bunch of libertarian-inspired videos does fit him, yes.

  9. #529
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Because protecting a man who conspired with foreign powers to steal elections and spy on American citizens is the same as the DNC.
    Where did I state that? Thanks for proving my point.
    Some people on this board get a hard-on from posting hit pieces comparing Bernie to russians and trumpists, but the DNC is above criticism. "It's their rules"... ignoring the fact that they're partially responsible for the shitty state of affairs. They'll never move to reform the status quo, it's the one thing they will always have in common with republicans - being the gatekeepers of 'democracy'.
    Last edited by Sorshen; 2020-02-04 at 01:01 PM.

  10. #530
    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    At this point, I can totally see you doing a Penn & Teller-style video.
    The thing is....Everything he just said is fucking horseshit.

    People lost their fucking jobs for rigging the 2016 primaries. Sanders polled significantly better in most swing states than Clinton etc.

    It's like a Jordan Peterson talk...Makes sense on the surface but as soon as you take one hard look at what is being said, the whole thing falls apart as superficial dogmatic drivel.

  11. #531
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    https://www.yourdictionary.com/rigged

    Did suddenly words change meaning for you guys?

    The process was influenced unfairly to get a desired outcome. As in a Hillary nomination. It wasn't an impartial or fair process. The numbers that came out of the process were tainted. Making the whole process tainted.

    What the fuck is happening here? Holy shit, I can't believe I'm having this conversation.

    This is why we fucking lost in 2016. People being fucking disgusted by the DNC.
    It was not rigged because the outcome was not predetermined. “Influence”, however great, is just that - influence. If your complaint is that the DNC was being partial - yes, they were. They were also being partial in 2008.

    Bernie failed where Obama succeeded because he could not turn out the numbers, simple as that. That is in no way “rigging”.

    Now if you want to have a discussion as to the optics of the DNC being partial, that’s a whole other story. But it isn’t the existential threat to the democratic order as you seem to be implying. Party hackism is just a thing that exists in representative bodies, in varying degrees.

    It’s very much in the vein of, dare I say it, Hunter Biden. Nothing he did was illegal or outright “wrong”, but it is highly questionable.

    But painting the DNC as this nest of vipers is just unmerited vitriol especially considering said DNC ensured you don’t have a Republican House at the moment.

    I don’t much care for their practices either. But I won’t question the value in a political machine.
    Last edited by Elegiac; 2020-02-04 at 01:01 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  12. #532
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    The thing is....Everything he just said is fucking horseshit.

    People lost their fucking jobs for rigging the 2016 primaries. Sanders polled significantly better in most swing states than Clinton etc.

    It's like a Jordan Peterson talk...Makes sense on the surface but as soon as you take one hard look at what is being said, the whole thing falls apart as superficial dogmatic drivel.
    Eh, to be fair. Penn & teller also had some very bullshitty episodes. Well they had good points in plenty of episodes, their idealogy was still obvious in the episodes against people getting an income from the gov for being disabled and against progressive taxes.

  13. #533
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    The US doesn't have an issue with voter engagement or undemocratic representation, apparently...

    Every American thinks they're a political scientist. It's adorable.

    - - - Updated - - -



    *turns on megaphone*

    The Democratic National Committee is not responsible for the conduct of the Iowa Democratic Party and expressly advised against Iowa holding a virtual caucus years ago.

    Get better material.
    Since when did Repubs care about facts over slogans?

  14. #534
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    Since when did Repubs care about facts over slogans?
    These aren’t Republicans, mystifyingly enough.

    We are having to explain to Democrats how their own fucking party is operated.

    Caucuses. How do they work?

    - - - Updated - - -
    @Skroe

    Let’s play a game of “Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner.”

    Your hints are:

    - You need them to win the Democratic nomination.
    - Hillary was popular with them relative to the other candidates.
    - Bernie typically hasn’t had much support from them regardless of what the DNC said or did in 2016.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  15. #535
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    These aren’t Republicans, mystifyingly enough.

    We are having to explain to Democrats how their own fucking party is operated.

    Caucuses. How do they work?

    - - - Updated - - -
    @Skroe

    Let’s play a game of “Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner.”

    Your hints are:

    - You need them to win the Democratic nomination.
    - Hillary was popular with them relative to the other candidates.
    - Bernie typically hasn’t had much support from them regardless of what the DNC said or did in 2016.

    Zenkai is a dem?

  16. #536
    Quote Originally Posted by Fabray View Post
    I mean, you’re obviously right, but I don’t know why you keep saying Sanders is going to narrowly win California, and lose Texas big. In all likelihood he’ll win California by a similar margin than Biden wins Texas. Those two will be about a wash. All the other Southern states are where Biden will eventually pull ahead like you’re describing.

    But if Biden ends up 4th here, and another similar showing in NH, people could freak out and shift to Pete or Bloomberg as the main option against Bernie. In that scenario, Bernie doesn’t lose any of these states by as much as he’d lose to Biden. Bernie wins easily if it’s somehow not Biden.
    Simply put, because at the present the best Data from polling we have says there will be a 3 to 4 way delegate split in California followed by a big Biden win in Texas. And then Florida something similar.

    Obviously the situation changes if sanders out performs the most recent polling, but right now the Data doesn’t suggest a different outcome.

    The question is, when do the also rans quit. Is it after New Hampshire? Unlikely after this Iowa fiasco. Is it after Super Tuesday? That’s really bad for Sanders if Warren stays in (and far less bad By comparison for Biden If Klobuchar and Pete stay in). If it’s The week after Super Tuesday, after the March 10th election, theN It’s a true problem For Bernie.

  17. #537
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    Simply put, because at the present the best Data from polling we have says there will be a 3 to 4 way delegate split in California followed by a big Biden win in Texas. And then Florida something similar.

    Obviously the situation changes if sanders out performs the most recent polling, but right now the Data doesn’t suggest a different outcome.

    The question is, when do the also rans quit. Is it after New Hampshire? Unlikely after this Iowa fiasco. Is it after Super Tuesday? That’s really bad for Sanders if Warren stays in (and far less bad By comparison for Biden If Klobuchar and Pete stay in). If it’s The week after Super Tuesday, after the March 10th election, theN It’s a true problem For Bernie.
    Doubly so if the reports coming out of Iowa regarding Klobuchar's delegates are to be believed; namely in that they apparently gravitated to Warren rather than Biden, giving her more potential longevity in the race.

    Biden tanking as hard as he apparently has is something of a novel factor, since a lot of folks were speculating electability was going to be the chief determinant for Iowa.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  18. #538
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    These aren’t Republicans, mystifyingly enough.

    We are having to explain to Democrats how their own fucking party is operated.

    Caucuses. How do they work?

    - - - Updated - - -
    @Skroe

    Let’s play a game of “Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner.”

    Your hints are:

    - You need them to win the Democratic nomination.
    - Hillary was popular with them relative to the other candidates.
    - Bernie typically hasn’t had much support from them regardless of what the DNC said or did in 2016.

    Haha I maintain that the best option and most electorally logical option for any VP remains Stacy Abrams.

    This just shouldn’t be hard. I never seen people who want to win only under certain terms and conditions like this.

  19. #539
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    I don’t much care for their practices either. But I won’t question the value in a political machine.
    The cognitive dissonance is mighty here.

    Influence is rigging when you are running the process. You are engaging in this odd semantics game where you are trying to reinterpret the meaning of words.

    Furthermore you spent several posts literally arguing that the process wasn't rigged when people lost their jobs for rigging it. It doesn't matter that you want to use the word "influence" instead of what it was ...rigging, it was still rigged.

    And on top of that you are literally poking fun at people who feel offended by the corruption of the process and equating their feelings (mine included) to fucking Trumpist Alternate Reality La La Land.

    It boggles the mind.

    You have a rigged process...you gloat about the rigged process and then you are literally telling people to a, not question the value of the political machine rigging the process and b, that they need to fall in line and enthusiastically support the product of a rigged process.

    This is incredibly infuriating, this is what is creating the division within the party that Republicans exploit for winning elections. It's not helping.

    And the optics of what is happening now are creating the perception that 2016 is repeating itself. If you, at all, actually care about beating Trump, the number one thing you should care about is the fairness of the primary process because that is the only way to get the Sanders, Yang, Tulsi etc voters to the ballots in 2020. If they come out of this process feeling FUCKED again, there's an amazingly good chance that they won't go and vote in 2020 even if someone, Biden let's say, won the primaries relatively fairly.

    And the thing is that you and others who ...let's say, share your views on the 2016 primaries, do this strange fucking semantic game about influence is not rigging and such is making this worse and reduces your credibility when commenting what is happening now.

    I understand the value of the DNC, but I refuse to accept the dictums of DNC, if the DNC wants me and people like me to vote and to vote for democrats they at least need to appear an honest actor. They are doing a shit job at that.

    Right now, the DNC should be all over the media, beating the Iowa Democrats over the head with the biggest fucking stick they can find. Offer resources to accelerate the process and demand complete and utter transparency inviting all the various campaign organizations to review the results.
    Last edited by Mihalik; 2020-02-04 at 01:30 PM.

  20. #540
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    Haha I maintain that the best option and most electorally logical option for any VP remains Stacy Abrams.

    This just shouldn’t be hard. I never seen people who want to win only under certain terms and conditions like this.
    I concur. Though I do think there's merit in Warren's choice to groom Castro for her VP pick for similar reasons, Stacey Abrams is by and far the party's most obvious VP pick in terms of profile and appeal.

    Barbara Tuchman has a very good line in the March of Folly regarding one of King George III's many faults - "he was convinced of his own righteousness, and therefore anyone who disagreed with him must be a scoundrel". Similar phenomenon at work, if I had to explain it: the historical record of Bernie polling poorly with black voters compared to Hillary and that preventing him from picking up critical delegates in the South was turned into a narrative of the DNC rigging the primary because acknowledging the former necessitates some uncomfortable explorations into why the Sanders camp hasn't typically done well with people of colour.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

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