Theory: Sylvanas knows Yogg-Saron is the Secret Evil Overlord of the Shadowlands

[Kumorii]

Murder is usually not really portrayed as morally justified in stories. Stories that involve murder usually explore the reasoning behind that action, what led to person A murdering person B etc. but it's really rare that it's actually depicted as the "right" course of action.

Tons of action movies beg to differ. John wick is a good example. Plenty of actions scenes and justified killings, but the story isn't about killing people it's about John Wicks escape from his bad past and trying to get out from it. The amount of killing is there to ramp up the stakes. John Wick deserves to be hunted since he was a contract killer but still people cheer for him because the story isn't killing, it's trying to let go of ones bad past.

With killing it's a bit different because people find it way easier to justify killing people e.g. in self-defense, as an act of war which of course makes sense but even then, there's a point to be made about the glorification of violence that is often involved in showing the act of killing.
With genocide it's totally different. Most people can't even conceive a good enough reason that would justify something like a genocide. Again, this is not about not depicting a genocide or telling a story about it, it's about telling the story in a way that makes genocide the only "right" course of action.

It doesn't have to be justified... Sylv can be redeemed but people can still say a genocide was the bad course, it CAN still be the bad course. Doesn't change the fact that it can be understandable with their reasoning.

It's like the AI trope. Who tries to make it better for humans and they conclude that killing humans is the best because they kill themselves yadda yadda. It's obviously retarded and not justified to kill humans due to that, but it's still understandable when you put it in an objective view. I know what people go for when they tell that story.

Another great example is Sargeras. He literally tried to kill Azeroth and that would include everyone who lived there which would be genocide times X. Do I understand his motives? Absolutely. Do I understand his reasoning? Absolutely. Do I celebrate his actions or think they are the right course of action? Hell no. Is the motive noble in the greater scope of things? Sure.

They don't HAVE to make the genocide the right course of action just because they decided that Sylv tried to do something noble and justified to her.

[ChairmanKaga]

Already in Classic she was doing very evil things like experimenting on the living or waging war on humans, whom she called an "infestation".

This is only evil if you are an in game human.

[Newname1234567890]

This is only evil if you are an in game human.

Distinctly not how most irl people consider wars of extermination on other people.

[Schattenlied]

This is only evil if you are an in game human.

Yeah, no, genocide is evil period.

[deenman]

That is an intersting theory, though I despise the idea of Sylvanas secretly having good intentions, the way you tied Shadowlands with WotLK is good. However, they already confirmed at Blizzcon that:

1) They are not continuing the Sylvanas Loyalist questline, she does not care about her former Loyalists.

2) The engine of Death broke around the time of Legion, not WotLK. Sylvanas going to the Maw is what the Arbiter wanted. Already in Classic she was doing very evil things like experimenting on the living or waging war on humans, whom she called an "infestation".

Also I would argue that thousands of ghostly night elf civilians wouldn't really be of much use against an Old God.... just saying. So if Sylvanas wants an army to oppose Yogg-Saron, she might want to rethink her strategy.

sylvanas 120% has good intentions,activision in current year will NEVER make a female be evil AND lose,so she either is good or something happens AGAIN to save her like with azshara

[Nerovar]

It doesn't have to be justified... Sylv can be redeemed but people can still say a genocide was the bad course, it CAN still be the bad course. Doesn't change the fact that it can be understandable with their reasoning.

It's like the AI trope. Who tries to make it better for humans and they conclude that killing humans is the best because they kill themselves yadda yadda. It's obviously retarded and not justified to kill humans due to that, but it's still understandable when you put it in an objective view. I know what people go for when they tell that story.

Another great example is Sargeras. He literally tried to kill Azeroth and that would include everyone who lived there which would be genocide times X. Do I understand his motives? Absolutely. Do I understand his reasoning? Absolutely. Do I celebrate his actions or think they are the right course of action? Hell no. Is the motive noble in the greater scope of things? Sure.

They don't HAVE to make the genocide the right course of action just because they decided that Sylv tried to do something noble and justified to her.

It seems that we don't really disagree. But we were specifically talking about a scenario in which they (the blizzard writers) decided to actually try to justify it by saying "Sylvanas was right all along and if she didn't do it, we'd all be dead and in rape-hell right now" (that was the premise made by author of this thread).

[Varodoc]

Not true. Sylvanas, even as late as Stormheim in Legion, tried to enslave Eyir to create more Forsaken, long after she got her revenge on Arthas. She even says she wanted to spare the Forsaken their fate in Legion and in BfA. And at the end of the Loyalist questline, she essentially says they're on the right side of history. Why would she care and what is her motive if that's the case?

Because her motives completely change everything? She only cared about the Forsaken because they served as a meat shield against Hell. In BfA she finally reveals how she never cared for them and how she always thought they were fools for clinging to life and hope.

This is only evil if you are an in game human.

No? Conducting revolting experiments on captured civilians is frowned upon by everyone.

sylvanas 120% has good intentions,activision in current year will NEVER make a female be evil AND lose,so she either is good or something happens AGAIN to save her like with azshara

Like Elisande, Lady Ashvane, Lady Waycrest, Cordana Felsong, or Warlord Zaela?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

sylvanas 120% has good intentions,activision in current year will NEVER make a female be evil AND lose,so she either is good or something happens AGAIN to save her like with azshara

Are you high? There's been plenty of female evils in Warcraft. Don't look for things that aren't there. Azshara is most definitely evil, just not aligned with lovecraftian horrors anymore.

[ChairmanKaga]

Yeah, no, genocide is evil period.

Pretending that Forsakens killing Humans is somehow distinctly evil vs the reverse of the Humans wiping out the Forsaken or all Undead is specious. The game routinely casts the player in the role of a genocidal murderer killing opposition faction groups/races by the gross be they Aqir, Fel Orcs, Satyrs, Black Dragons, Naga, Quillboars etc. So in the context of the game one race torturing and murdering another is evil based on perspective not by some objective measure.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Pretending that Forsakens killing Humans is somehow distinctly evil vs the reverse of the Humans wiping out the Forsaken or all Undead is specious. The game routinely casts the player in the role of a genocidal murderer killing opposition faction groups/races by the gross be they Aqir, Fel Orcs, Satyrs, Black Dragons, Naga, Quillboars etc. So in the context of the game one race torturing and murdering another is evil based on perspective not by some objective measure.

Even if you wiped out the Forsaken, Undead wouldn't be dead. Pretty much Northrend and any small outposts would have Undead. Not to mention Undeath is considered a bad and negative thing altogether,(Look at the Plaguelands its not nice looking and its an abomination of nature). This "Its all about perspective" stuff is just bullshit.

Nobody cared about wiping out Undead until the Forsaken came around and most of those races you mention.......still exist. So genocide isn't exactly happening, nor should it.


TLDR: Genocide is bad and the "Its all about perspective" is bullshit and close to justifying atrocities.

[Varodoc]

Pretending that Forsakens killing Humans is somehow distinctly evil vs the reverse of the Humans wiping out the Forsaken or all Undead is specious. The game routinely casts the player in the role of a genocidal murderer killing opposition faction groups/races by the gross be they Aqir, Fel Orcs, Satyrs, Black Dragons, Naga, Quillboars etc. So in the context of the game one race torturing and murdering another is evil based on perspective not by some objective measure.

….. and? For all you know, the Scarlet Crusade (the only humans actively fighting the Forsaken) and the player character would have also been destined to the Maw by the Arbiter. You are not proving anything.

[ChairmanKaga]

Even if you wiped out the Forsaken, Undead wouldn't be dead. Pretty much Northrend and any small outposts would have Undead. Not to mention Undeath is considered a bad and negative thing altogether,(Look at the Plaguelands its not nice looking and its an abomination of nature). This "Its all about perspective" stuff is just bullshit.

Nobody cared about wiping out Undead until the Forsaken came around and most of those races you mention.......still exist. So genocide isn't exactly happening, nor should it.


TLDR: Genocide is bad and the "Its all about perspective" is bullshit and close to justifying atrocities.

So you are pro-genocide as long as it's the "right" kind. Got it. That is my point entirely.

[VinceVega]

I generaly despise the idea of "I'm literally the only person in the universe who knows it!" giga-galaxy-brain anyone. There are so many theories about Sylvanas and most of them include her having some never-before-seen truth.

Why would someone like her know such things? Let's remember that the Shadowlands aren't tied to Azeroth, but to the universe as a whole. Come to think of it, it's already ridiculous that by doing something on Azeroth (shattering the helm) she unleashed the Shadowlands upon the whole universe. And of course, it's only Sylvanas who knows it. Cause why not.

We've already had a whole expansion of Sylvanas and her "all according to plan", "they are playing right into my plan", "it might look grim, but just wait for the fruits of my plan", just mystery after mystery, almost as annoying as Dutch. It's already bad that all the imaginable evil decided to strike just now, in the span of few years, I don't think the health of the lore would endure THE person that knows something that millions throughout the millenia never figured out.

Next thing you know, she was the child of Light and Shadow that Xe'ra seeked. I miss the times when Sylvanas was just a banshee, an elf that was unlucky to meet Arthas the Death Knight.

While i agree, that the mystery upon mystery this addon was annoying.... hell do we know ANTHING more then what we did know at the start?
Not really...

I don't think Sylvanas is the only one who knows what she is doing. Just we as mortal beings and player characters have no knowledge of it. Like when you start to read a fantasy book. You know the villain (or sometimes misunderstood antihero) we as a reader and the main character do NOT know what he actually plans.
I also didn't really think Sylvannas had that much of an prominent standing in BfA. She was featured heavily in the cinematics. But did we see her actually in game that much? Not really.
She was the focal point of the secondary story where we as players had no influence in. Apart from the odd short story quest.

All of this played to SL. I truly believe that this is where everything will be revealed. They have a plan. I i do think they knew what they wanted to do with here since Legion. But i also don't believe they will make her a good character again. Maybe she tried to stop something and still does. But she went to far if that is the case and will forever be evil. Then we will go an kill the real evil with some magical shoestring or something.

And Yogg Saron... nah sorry... he is too... not a character really. He has some story behind the curtains of wow. But not enough to suddenly be that big of a deal.

[Schattenlied]

Pretending that Forsakens killing Humans is somehow distinctly evil vs the reverse of the Humans wiping out the Forsaken or all Undead is specious. The game routinely casts the player in the role of a genocidal murderer killing opposition faction groups/races by the gross be they Aqir, Fel Orcs, Satyrs, Black Dragons, Naga, Quillboars etc. So in the context of the game one race torturing and murdering another is evil based on perspective not by some objective measure.

Undead isn't a species, it's an affliction, for starters.

Secondly, the Forsaken started the war with the Alliance, not the other way around. So, "in the context of the game", the Humans were fighting a defensive war... They are fighting to end a threat that wants to end all human life, the Forsaken are fighting because Sylvanas chose to make an enemy of the Alliance instead of keeping to the deal she made in TFT.

[ChairmanKaga]

Undead isn't a species, it's an affliction, for starters.

Who said they were a species?

[Schattenlied]

Who said they were a species?

My point is that the forsaken are not some other species, they are humans, they are just cursed humans, and they are nonsensically trying to spread that curse, even though they constantly complain about it, to even more humans...

You said genocide of humans is only bad if you're in game human ( which is a complete falsehood, because it's also bad for anyone with a conscience or functional moral compass, and anyone allied with them, like the Dwarves, Gnomes, Night Elves, High Elves, etc... But for the sake of argument let's pretend that statement isn't complete BS for the moment), well guess what, the overwhelming majority of forsaken are human... And considering the forsaken can't reproduce, them committing genocide on the unafflicted humans will eventually cause the forsaken to cease to exist as well, as without any living humans to continue to make more humans the existing forsaken will all eventually succumb to rot or death in combat. They are effectively trying to long-term genocide themselves.

[Cronovey]

So, by that logic, N'Zoth returned to Ny'alotha when killed him? That doesn't make any sense and isn't mentioned anywhere in the lore. In fact, the devs have been cagey about what happens to the Old Gods after death.

This one can be answered the same way as demons; killing a demon in the Nether is the only way to permanently kill a demon, so killing N'zoth in Ny'alotha is probably permanent death for him there.

Ny'alotha being the respawn point of void creatures actually works considering that Il'gynoth was a boss last expansion during the Emerald Nightmare raid and upon death says he will return to Ny'alotha, which he does just to become a raid boss again this expansion.

Going off not headcanon but the knowledge we actually have is important. Void creature was killed and respawned in Ny'alotha is a fact.

It's a fun theory, but you're ignoring a large portion of the interview that was posted earlier to try and make your headcanon work here, specifically this quote from the interview:

"If you think about our cosmology and the way that creatures of magic work as opposed to mortals, mortals die they go to the Shadowlands. If you fought the Legion, you fought demons. If you kill them on Azeroth, where do they go? Back to the Twisting Nether, which is the place where they come from."

Mortals go to Shadowlands (players, Azerothian NPC's who have died like Uther, Kael'thas, etc), demons go to the Twisting Nether which is where they come from, so along those lines where would Old Gods return upon death? To their point of origin, the Great Dark where the Void Lords occupy the space entirely outside our reality. The Old Gods are manifestations of these horrific creatures that aren't even a part of our reality, so why would their spawn shot into our reality from outside it go into the death realm that mortal beings go to instead of going back to their own place of origin like demons? It just doesn't make any sense.

If Ny'alotha is some sort of pocket realm of the void, it's possible he's there somewhere but if that were the case you think he and C'thun would have made a move a long time ago unless it just takes them a very long time to respawn because of their magnitude and power.

[PedroloGeo]

How do we know Yogg went to the maw? If when demons die go to the twisting nether because it is the dimention of chaos, shouldn’t beings of shadow go to their dimension of shadow? Ny’alotha? Or something like that?

Do we know for sure that the souls of the dead old gods go to the Shadowlands?

[qwerty123456]

If Sylvanas was doing all this for the greater good it would shit all over Saurfangs sacrifice and mean he died for nothing.

[AbalDarkwind]

This one can be answered the same way as demons; killing a demon in the Nether is the only way to permanently kill a demon, so killing N'zoth in Ny'alotha is probably permanent death for him there.

Ny'alotha being the respawn point of void creatures actually works considering that Il'gynoth was a boss last expansion during the Emerald Nightmare raid and upon death says he will return to Ny'alotha, which he does just to become a raid boss again this expansion.

Going off not headcanon but the knowledge we actually have is important. Void creature was killed and respawned in Ny'alotha is a fact.

It's a fun theory, but you're ignoring a large portion of the interview that was posted earlier to try and make your headcanon work here, specifically this quote from the interview:

Mortals go to Shadowlands (players, Azerothian NPC's who have died like Uther, Kael'thas, etc), demons go to the Twisting Nether which is where they come from, so along those lines where would Old Gods return upon death? To their point of origin, the Great Dark where the Void Lords occupy the space entirely outside our reality. The Old Gods are manifestations of these horrific creatures that aren't even a part of our reality, so why would their spawn shot into our reality from outside it go into the death realm that mortal beings go to instead of going back to their own place of origin like demons? It just doesn't make any sense.

If Ny'alotha is some sort of pocket realm of the void, it's possible he's there somewhere but if that were the case you think he and C'thun would have made a move a long time ago unless it just takes them a very long time to respawn because of their magnitude and power.

It makes sense if you look at it as a scheme by Yogg. You're likely right, or at least partially right: the Old Gods likely return to the Void or Ny'alotha or other pocket dimensions that are Void-adjacent similar to Ny'alotha. However, I'm theorizing that Yogg was attempting to gain access to the Shadowlands to become a literal God of Death, similar to how he entered and corrupted the Emerald Dream. He had to use the roots of a World Tree to do it; in other words, a conduit and anchor. He needed to die to gain access to the Shadowlands, but he needed an anchor that would send him there rather than to the Void. I'm suggesting that that anchor is Icecrown Citadel, as it's made from his living blood and is meant to mirror Torghast.

How do we know Yogg went to the maw? If when demons die go to the twisting nether because it is the dimention of chaos, shouldn’t beings of shadow go to their dimension of shadow? Ny’alotha? Or something like that?

Do we know for sure that the souls of the dead old gods go to the Shadowlands?

We don't know where they go for sure at all. We know creatures related to N'Zoth went to Ny'alotha, like Il'gynoth. However, it's likely that the OGs themselves return to the Void. However, as explained above, I believe Yogg manipulated his way into the Maw, much like he manipulated his way into the Emerald Dream.