Could something be done to make people tank?

[SirCowdog]

of course I did. I know obelisks will enable skips. or different pulls. So my description although it was short was; +10AD, 1st time with ADobeliskpatience

I am honest. I warned before we started and rog left, got a new person, and guess what it was cleared.

I'm sorry I even had to ask. You know how people are on forums sometimes. "Woe is me! I'm a victim!" Then it turns up later they weren't telling the whole story.

Yeah. Sadly, that's the atmosphere of wow right now in PUGs. Entitlement and elitism. Neither of which are usually justified.

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Blizzard tried this back in WoD
In order to do heroics via group finder you had to do silver proving grounds for that role

The result was terrible and I think there was a video about it by preach gaming

You see a rank based matchmaking system cannot work in WoW because you will have the worst players feel punished

Proving grounds was shit. Half the stuff in it didn't even apply to what current dungeons had at the time, because it was mechanics from MoP. Added to that problem is that they tried to male it mandatory instead of optional.

It didn't work because it was a bad system that was halfassed designed, not necessarily that it was a bad concept. Although if you can find the Preach video about it, I'd love to watch it and see what he says.

As for punishing players: That's what unranked mode would be for. Again, I'm not trying to shut people out, only trying to add a public system for grouping that mitigates the bad parts of the current open-ended system.

[Sansnom]

You see a rank based matchmaking system cannot work in WoW because you will have the worst players feel punished

I don't know. I think it may be at least be worth trying. Ranked matchmaking happens in other games and particularly in PvP.

After all, a grand master will not enjoy playing against a amateur and vice-versa.

Of course there are problems to resolve. The first being the trinary of tank/dps/healers. Will there more or less tanks/healers available in the various ranks? What if players are matched with people much lower or even higher due to the availability of those roles?

It may work or not, at least I think it is worth exploring further.

[Revamp Man]

I'm sorry I even had to ask. You know how people are on forums sometimes. "Woe is me! I'm a victim!" Then it turns up later they weren't telling the whole story.

Yeah. Sadly, that's the atmosphere of wow right now in PUGs. Entitlement and elitism. Neither of which are usually justified.

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Proving grounds was shit. Half the stuff in it didn't even apply to what current dungeons had at the time, because it was mechanics from MoP. Added to that problem is that they tried to male it mandatory instead of optional.

It didn't work because it was a bad system that was halfassed designed, not necessarily that it was a bad concept. Although if you can find the Preach video about it, I'd love to watch it and see what he says.

As for punishing players: That's what unranked mode would be for. Again, I'm not trying to shut people out, only trying to add a public system for grouping that mitigates the bad parts of the current open-ended system.

Again I totally agree with the fact that the proving grounds system was shit but in warlords of drain or there was an obvious difference between those who could complete them and those who could not and I’m not just talking about the people on the forums who complained about the gear not scaling

You could do a heroic relatively easily no matter what role you were but you go into normal and the dungeon becomes much much harder

As for the preach video give me like five minutes

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I don't know. I think it may be at least be worth trying. Ranked matchmaking happens in other games and particularly in PvP.

After all, a grand master will not enjoy playing against a amateur and vice-versa.

Of course there are problems to resolve. The first being the trinary of tank/dps/healers. Will there more or less tanks/healers available in the various ranks? What if players are matched with people much lower or even higher due to the availability of those roles?

It may work or not, at least I think it is worth exploring further.

As I have said World of Warcraft already tried this to expansions ago and it did not work that well right now the ranking system that some people would call it is an add-on and in order for you to go up in rank you need to do harder content but in order for you to do that hurt or content some groups not all not even a majority require you to have a much higher rank than is actually required

As I have said World of Warcraft already tried this to expansions ago and it did not work that well right now the ranking system that some people would call it is an add-on and in order for you to go up in rank you need to do harder content but in order for you to do that harder content some groups not all not even a majority require you to have a much higher rank then is actually required

Let’s say that we do have a ranked system it would be almost entirely dominated by the same people who will sit in a +5 and see how you need to know the skips you need a Rogue and you need an item level equivalent to a heroic raider and you need the score equivalent to someone who has cleared pretty much everything at a +7 or higher

Let’s say that we do have a ranked system it would be almost entirely dominated by the same people who will sit in a +5 and see how you need to know the skips you need a Rogue and you need an item level equivalent to a heroic raider and you need the score equivalent to someone who has cleared pretty much everything at a +7 or higher

Is it needed is a question and the answer is no

Should we try it on the off chance that it allows players to not run into crappy people and the answer is no because it will not do that because you just get people who can do higher content worried more about rank than anything else and there would have to be about five different systems in order to make this even work and segmenting the player base is not a good idea right now all I have to do to get my key done is place it in the group finder and eventually everything will fill I play a monk so I have access to a tank spec and a heel spec both of which have come in useful throughout this in Expansion

[Mirishka]

The community is a major reason, yeah, but the gear design has made it a lot worse, too.

The periods of time that I switched roles the most were the ones where I could use all the same gear except for weapon/shield and trinkets to tank.

Now I have to farm essences, azerite gear with the right traits, weapons/shields, trinkets, and corrupted gear with the right traits for every role that I want to play and I just do not have that kind of time to waste on WoW.

I also used to enjoy tanking for PUGs a lot more when you could actually outgrow content and become confident that you could handle whatever happened by yourself if you had to when you were in one of the starter dungeons 3 patches into an expansion. Now everything gets harder as the gear gets better and there's no actual progression of power, so you're just as beholden to randos to survive and succeed in a day 1 dungeon on day 700 and it's stressful.

If you stick to normal and heroic dungeons 'like in the good old days' then you can absolutely outgear and smash through them just as you always could. Hell you can outgear Mythic0 and trainwreck your way through those. The only dungeons that are challenging to the degree you're complaining about are M+ dungeons and that was kind of the point of M+ dungeons.

[Darkeon]

I tank for fun - so when it comes to more challenging content, I would rather play with friends.

You, the random player that is prone to rage at the minor mistep, can learn to tank.

[Gref]

I'm sorry I even had to ask. You know how people are on forums sometimes. "Woe is me! I'm a victim!" Then it turns up later they weren't telling the whole story.

Yeah. Sadly, that's the atmosphere of wow right now in PUGs. Entitlement and elitism. Neither of which are usually justified.

the healer also was understanding at least I guess. He said; man its just the second week ffs.
I mean I am not offended or anything by what happened. It is OK, I run my own keys, If I fail i genuinely apologize to people for wasting their time. If I could do more I would but I really state what run it is going to be. well it is just 6 more dungeons. then I am good to go for the whole season. Also, I wish I could find a mythic dungeon guild. with the time difference playing from japan, even aussies are in the bed when I log in.

[Sevyvia]

For every tank main you see, there are probably a dozen would-be tank mains who gave up and switched to DPS, and at least a dozen more who group exclusively with friends (ie, you'll never encounter them where it matters) specifically for that reason.

That was certainly exactly what it was like when I still played. I tanked for public groups a bit at the beginning of each expansion, and then went exclusive to my friend group. Even if I still needed gear, I had a baseline. But at least I can have a conversation about how we do dungeons with my friends, as opposed to insane arguments and aggression each time some tiny thing is mentioned with a pub.

I'm also petty enough to occasionally enforce the "you pull it, you tank it" type thing if someone's being particularly annoying with it. But it wastes my time, it wastes 3 other people's time, and usually the blameless healer just trying to get through the dungeon will be left holding the shit after the DPS uses their aggro-drop ability. And trying to get a healer not to heal some asshole in a public group - good luck.

[SirCowdog]

Again I totally agree with the fact that the proving grounds system was shit but in warlords of drain or there was an obvious difference between those who could complete them and those who could not and I’m not just talking about the people on the forums who complained about the gear not scaling

You could do a heroic relatively easily no matter what role you were but you go into normal and the dungeon becomes much much harder

As for the preach video give me like five minutes

So I watched the video, and here's what I think:


The point that Preach seemed to be making was that the silver proving grounds was stopping people from progressing, and as a result, normal mode dungeons were acting as a kind of chokepoint that players couldn't get past because of the sheer quantity of bad players. And that heroic difficulty was actually easier because the quality of good players who passed the silver barrier.

There are a few things to consider before dismissing the idea of ranked matchmaking:

There a fairly significant difference between a hard barrier that literally prevents you from accessing content, and a ranking system that simply places you in a difficulty of content that your skill/gear warrants. One is a static, arbitrary barrier that has nothing to do with the actual content being played, and stops progress, the other is a dynamic scale that constantly sorts players into groups of similar progress and ability using the very same content that the ranking applies to!

Secondly, WoD had only two difficulties of dungeons: Normal and heroic. Modern wow has M+ that scales up in difficulty across 10-20 settings. In truth, normal and heroic dungeons almost serve no purpose, and should really be replaced entirely by the M+ system, with appropriate adjustments to the early levels to accommodate entry-level players. Done properly, even a low ranked bad player would still be playing the content and more accurately being rewarded based on their ability over time.

As I have said World of Warcraft already tried this to expansions ago and it did not work that well right now the ranking system that some people would call it is an add-on and in order for you to go up in rank you need to do harder content but in order for you to do that hurt or content some groups not all not even a majority require you to have a much higher rank than is actually required

Let’s say that we do have a ranked system it would be almost entirely dominated by the same people who will sit in a +5 and see how you need to know the skips you need a Rogue and you need an item level equivalent to a heroic raider and you need the score equivalent to someone who has cleared pretty much everything at a +7 or higher

Is it needed is a question and the answer is no

Should we try it on the off chance that it allows players to not run into crappy people and the answer is no because it will not do that because you just get people who can do higher content worried more about rank than anything else and there would have to be about five different systems in order to make this even work and segmenting the player base is not a good idea right now all I have to do to get my key done is place it in the group finder and eventually everything will fill I play a monk so I have access to a tank spec and a heel spec both of which have come in useful throughout this in Expansion

Again, there's a few very important differences you should consider carefully.

First is that the ranking system is already effectively part of the game and social dynamic. RaiderIO is almost required at the high end of M+, and has a bleeding edge further into the middle ranks as people begin to emulate the elite.

Second is what I mentioned earlier in the thread. The main problem with a system like RaiderIO is that it's influenced by the very players that use it. This causes the elitism and entitlement that you mentioned, where players demand ridiculous skill or ability that far outpaces what's actually required.

However, if the ranking and matchmaking is out of the community's hands, then more fair groupings will happen. You might still have elitism and entitlement in pre-made groups for unranked runs, but when using ranked matchmaking every player in your group would actually be there because they deserve it. Players would be less able to inflate their rank through carries, and completely unable to demand unreasonable requirements for matchmaking groups.

Also, I don't see how this would "segment the players". Can you expand on that?

All in all, the problems you're describing seem to already effectively be in the game. A ranked matchmaking system would only serve to streamline it and cut down on abuse and toxicity while grouping with randoms.

Is it needed? No. Very few addons or QoL features are strictly needed,a as Classic shows. But would it do the PUG community good? I believe so, especially the way things have steadily been getting worse lately, with more and more tanks taking themselves out of the pool to play only with friends or guildies.

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the healer also was understanding at least I guess. He said; man its just the second week ffs.
I mean I am not offended or anything by what happened. It is OK, I run my own keys, If I fail i genuinely apologize to people for wasting their time. If I could do more I would but I really state what run it is going to be. well it is just 6 more dungeons. then I am good to go for the whole season. Also, I wish I could find a mythic dungeon guild. with the time difference playing from japan, even aussies are in the bed when I log in.

Well, if I was still playing, I'd help you out. I work nights on the west coast, so most of my game time matches up perfectly with oceanic players.

[ro9ue]

I tanked a lot more back in MoP or Cata, whenever they gave you the satchel with the chance for a mount/pet.

[PenguinChan]

Please don't confuse this suggestion as an attempt to remove people's ability to find groups. Manually made groups would still exist. I could even see an option for both ranked and unranked matchmaking being available. But there definitely needs to be something to help curb the nonsense that goes on in current random groups.

If people quit mid-run because they can't handle it, their rank goes down, and when using ranked mode they'd get put with people at their same level. People that stick it out would eventually rise and sort out their place in the ranking as well.

I don't know how the actual details of the ranking system would work. That would, of course, be something for the devs to work out internally. I'm just talking about theoretical concepts. Any such system would of course have to take ilvl into account, among other factors.

I don't think "everyone else would get fucked by the system" would be something that would be implemented. Anyway, "I'm fucked by the system" sounds like something a bad player would use as an excuse because they don't like having their actual skill level shown to them. That's half the problem in current random groups: People thinking they're much better than they are, and shitting on anyone that doesn't meet their unrealistic and inflated sense of entitled perfection for groups.

Oh I don't expect it to be a system that is enforced on players (If it is a matchmaking system), much like how if you really wanted to - you can manually put together a group and queue or go to the areas physically if need be. But it's just how the fundamental process of how PVE works that it's extremely difficult to have this work out in any capacity that'd be a positive. In PVP you can fight and lose or win, and either way you decrease or increase your ranking respectively. Now let's look at it for PVE: You either beat the dungeon, or you don't. So you either win, or lose. If you win, you did it! If you don't, well that sucks.

Guess what a traditional matchmaking algorithm really loves to see? That win or loss, plus many other factors but it certainly has a huge influence. So now you have to determine whether or not the players, including the tank, did well. It's extremely difficult for a machine or an AI to actually do this, compared to a human looking at what had gone wrong or was going right even with data.

If Blizzard did implement a 'ranking' system it wouldn't be anything like what others are probably thinking about.

Chances are they'd gauge how people play their class and how they play with others. Are they quick, are they slow, are they mixed? Do they play afar, do they play up close; are they good at damage but bad at survival, or are they mediocre at damage but survive? Things like that I can see them gauging and providing a more 'equal' experience in M+ if they added that in.

Because then, depending on how you play will determine the type of Healer or DPS or Tank you'll get. But I wouldn't ever consider that a ranking system but a personality-type system, or whatever it would be called. Putting you with others that compliment your kind of gameplay and style.

[Spiel]

The game can throw the tanks all the gifts and goodies in the world. As long as people are so unforgiving, impatient, and toxic in general towards tanks, their population will go in decline

[SirCowdog]

Oh I don't expect it to be a system that is enforced on players (If it is a matchmaking system), much like how if you really wanted to - you can manually put together a group and queue or go to the areas physically if need be. But it's just how the fundamental process of how PVE works that it's extremely difficult to have this work out in any capacity that'd be a positive. In PVP you can fight and lose or win, and either way you decrease or increase your ranking respectively. Now let's look at it for PVE: You either beat the dungeon, or you don't. So you either win, or lose. If you win, you did it! If you don't, well that sucks.

Guess what a traditional matchmaking algorithm really loves to see? That win or loss, plus many other factors but it certainly has a huge influence. So now you have to determine whether or not the players, including the tank, did well. It's extremely difficult for a machine or an AI to actually do this, compared to a human looking at what had gone wrong or was going right even with data.

If Blizzard did implement a 'ranking' system it wouldn't be anything like what others are probably thinking about.

Chances are they'd gauge how people play their class and how they play with others. Are they quick, are they slow, are they mixed? Do they play afar, do they play up close; are they good at damage but bad at survival, or are they mediocre at damage but survive? Things like that I can see them gauging and providing a more 'equal' experience in M+ if they added that in.

Because then, depending on how you play will determine the type of Healer or DPS or Tank you'll get. But I wouldn't ever consider that a ranking system but a personality-type system, or whatever it would be called. Putting you with others that compliment your kind of gameplay and style.

I made this point earlier, but RaiderIO is already effectively a reality of higher keys when using randoms.

So the counter argument is that if a group of players can make an addon (RaiderIOl) that works ok...then the massive team of professional devs should theoretically be able to improve upon it.

Again, this is assuming that any ranked mode would not be the only mode. It would occupy the space RaiderIO does currently, but adding a matchmaking component to promote fairness. Unranked manually-formed groups would exist along side, exactly as they do now.

.

[potis]

So, you're pointing out the game is poorly designed for the audience it has.

The game is fine, its the people playing it that refuse to store information in their brains to become better at it.

[Segus1992]

Here's how to fix the tank shortage: make tanks more like a combination of the three current roles - more damage, more damage taken (than current, still less than the others), less hp (again, less than current), give tanks support/heal effects for the group.

Basically, make tank less of a "required role people don't want to play" and more of a bruiser/support that does almost the same damage as a DPS. People would play the role more in open world/random dungeons, and that would transfer to higher level play as well.

EDIT: As a bonus, it also makes tanks a lot more balanced and less annoying in PvP.

[Xorzor]

The game can throw the tanks all the gifts and goodies in the world. As long as people are so unforgiving, impatient, and toxic in general towards tanks, their population will go in decline

This times infinity. You can't make people do anything.

A possible solution would be to undo the whole trinity nonsense. Just make every class DPS and give them their on defensive and healing skills (if they lack a sufficient amount of them, or lack them at all). I guess that turn WoW into an action RPG of sorts.

But to do that would require A LOT of time. Time which no one at Jizzard has.

[Segus1992]

This times infinity. You can't make people do anything.

A possible solution would be to undo the whole trinity nonsense. Just make every class DPS and give them their on defensive and healing skills (if they lack a sufficient amount of them, or lack them at all). I guess that turn WoW into an action RPG of sorts.

But to do that would require A LOT of time. Time which no one at Jizzard has.

I mean, not really. Reduce mob damage done, reduce tank damage reduction & hp and give them damage and support to compensate, and reduce their bonus threat. Now everyone can tank easy content, but you'll still want tanks for high level stuff.

[Super Kami Dende]

For every tank main you see, there are probably a dozen would-be tank mains who gave up and switched to DPS, and at least a dozen more who group exclusively with friends (ie, you'll never encounter them where it matters) specifically for that reason.

This was myself in WoW, I tanked most content in the game but only with friends and guildies as I was sick of shitty/toxic dps.

[Garymorilix]

All the people who don't tank because of "toxic dps" players are just simply bad af at tanking period.

If you don't know your route, if you can't skip, if you dont know how much you can pull you are simply bad af.

A tanks job is not to tank mobs. That's the easy part. Most of tanking is meta gameplay unrelated to actual tanking.

[Revamp Man]

So I watched the video, and here's what I think:


The point that Preach seemed to be making was that the silver proving grounds was stopping people from progressing, and as a result, normal mode dungeons were acting as a kind of chokepoint that players couldn't get past because of the sheer quantity of bad players. And that heroic difficulty was actually easier because the quality of good players who passed the silver barrier.

There are a few things to consider before dismissing the idea of ranked matchmaking:

There a fairly significant difference between a hard barrier that literally prevents you from accessing content, and a ranking system that simply places you in a difficulty of content that your skill/gear warrants. One is a static, arbitrary barrier that has nothing to do with the actual content being played, and stops progress, the other is a dynamic scale that constantly sorts players into groups of similar progress and ability using the very same content that the ranking applies to!

Secondly, WoD had only two difficulties of dungeons: Normal and heroic. Modern wow has M+ that scales up in difficulty across 10-20 settings. In truth, normal and heroic dungeons almost serve no purpose, and should really be replaced entirely by the M+ system, with appropriate adjustments to the early levels to accommodate entry-level players. Done properly, even a low ranked bad player would still be playing the content and more accurately being rewarded based on their ability over time.



Again, there's a few very important differences you should consider carefully.

First is that the ranking system is already effectively part of the game and social dynamic. RaiderIO is almost required at the high end of M+, and has a bleeding edge further into the middle ranks as people begin to emulate the elite.

Second is what I mentioned earlier in the thread. The main problem with a system like RaiderIO is that it's influenced by the very players that use it. This causes the elitism and entitlement that you mentioned, where players demand ridiculous skill or ability that far outpaces what's actually required.

However, if the ranking and matchmaking is out of the community's hands, then more fair groupings will happen. You might still have elitism and entitlement in pre-made groups for unranked runs, but when using ranked matchmaking every player in your group would actually be there because they deserve it. Players would be less able to inflate their rank through carries, and completely unable to demand unreasonable requirements for matchmaking groups.

Also, I don't see how this would "segment the players". Can you expand on that?

All in all, the problems you're describing seem to already effectively be in the game. A ranked matchmaking system would only serve to streamline it and cut down on abuse and toxicity while grouping with randoms.

Is it needed? No. Very few addons or QoL features are strictly needed,a as Classic shows. But would it do the PUG community good? I believe so, especially the way things have steadily been getting worse lately, with more and more tanks taking themselves out of the pool to play only with friends or guildies.

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Well, if I was still playing, I'd help you out. I work nights on the west coast, so most of my game time matches up perfectly with oceanic players.

I mean what I pulled from the video was that you have really shitty players who could not do the bare minimum and thus they could not progress so when you did Heroics the pool of players that you had lacked the shitty players

So for the rent matchmaking and why I don’t think it will work in World of Warcraft even if you take out the previous attempt for blizzard to do it you also have to take into account a few things

First and foremost is something that people can’t really deny and that is how eventually the group composition becomes a factor for some bosses for example the second boss in under rot

Then you also have to take into account would this work with premade groups which could be used for boosting let’s say that the rating or rank system is on a scale of 1 to 10 and you have a group of rank 10 players offering boosts so you get that rank one player to pay for a boost and they get up to seven

So after that boost the player will now be playing with others who are of a considerably higher skill or at least able to do more than the boosted player is that this can lead to what seems to be punishment for the players who did not get boosted
So after that boost the player will now be playing with others who are of a considerably higher skill or at least able to do more than the boosted players that this can lead to what seems to be punishment for the players who did not get boosted

This is actually something that we saw recently with Legion and the early keystones where you had some players paying to boost their keys to a +10 and thus next week they got a +8 however since they were boosted there was no conceivable way for them to complete that key and it was definitely an issue that was only solved when blizzard made it impossible to deplete keys

This is some thing that blizzard themselves do tend to struggle with and by that I mean they have their game designed around a reward structure that is supposed to reward players for their skill level as perceived by the game system for example if I go in to a base mythic dungeon and clear it on my man I leave with at least a level five Keystone because I clear it quick And whatever the other factors are

Now if I were to judge my character based on the gear which is wet blizzard currently does then my three alt characters would also be at that level in these characters have done nothing other than world content as many new players or players who are very casual would do

Now if I were to judge my character based on the gear which is what blizzard currently does then my three alt characters would also be at that level in these characters have done nothing other than world content as many new players or players who are very casual would do

Those players are told by the game that they should be doing higher content however a majority of them or at least the majority of the ones that visit the forums complain about the game being too tough

No I kind a got a little off-track but back to the ranking system if we have enough people ranked low then undoubtedly some will stay there now my comment about segmenting the player base is kind of tied to the proving ground system


As we saw in the video that system essentially made two groups those who could do her Roeck dungeons and those who could not so with a ranking system you would have to worry about the players who don’t try to push their rank and stay in that mid range which is currently what we do now because I know some players who refuse to push a key any higher than a seven

As we saw in the video that system essentially made to groups those who could do her Roeck dungeons and those who could not so with a rank system you would have to worry about the players who don’t try to push their rank and stay in that mid range which is currently what we do now because I know some players who refuse to push a key any higher than a seven So this ranking system would essentially just be what we have now except fully endorsed by blizzard and the current ad on that we have that manages to do this actually functions in a very similar way to what the rank system would have to function like until someone can explain to me how the system would work while not negatively affecting the player base

So this ranking system would essentially just be what we have now except fully endorsed by blizzard and the current add-on that we have that manages to do this actually functions in a very similar way to what the rank system would have to function like until someone can explain to me how the system would work while not negatively affecting the player base


I understand that the argument for an unranked system also comes into play and that’s fine but what are the actual positives to implementing an in game rank system beyond what we already have because I honestly see no positives and maybe I am wrong

Little Jimmy might be a new player and really low ranked but his brother Timmy has one friend and they want to bring Timmy with them so he’s rank one they are rank seven they still need to get random players so when they enter the ranked match making the choice will be either to make it impossible because of the rank or make it to where they match with the lowest ranked players so you have two higher ranked players chancing negative affects on their ranking because of this or they are matched with higher ranked players thus carrying the new player and depending on what role the new player is it could be a bad time for everyone involved

And just to reiterate my point earlier if you have random matchmaking or ranked matchmaking there comes a point where this game system just doesn’t work right because this game is not balanced some classes will always outperform others in certain dungeons so would the rank system be on a dungeon basis in which case the only DPS that you would see going for certain dungeons would be those that could get you from it my monk would only ever do
Under rot and my warrior would only ever do kings rest this is another instance in which the player base can be segmented


I thank you for putting up with my rambling it is 6:30 in the morning and I am using voice to text because writing assignments

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All the people who don't tank because of "toxic dps" players are just simply bad af at tanking period.

If you don't know your route, if you can't skip, if you dont know how much you can pull you are simply bad af.

A tanks job is not to tank mobs. That's the easy part. Most of tanking is meta gameplay unrelated to actual tanking.

Skips and all that shit should not matter until you are in higher keys there should not be a mythic five wear one DPS is complaining because two extra mobs got polled or you should not be in this week having a tank a Demon Hunter tank unable to hold Agro on 2 mobs

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I mean, not really. Reduce mob damage done, reduce tank damage reduction & hp and give them damage and support to compensate, and reduce their bonus threat. Now everyone can tank easy content, but you'll still want tanks for high level stuff.

Or players can just learn to hit three buttons and let the tank pull

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The game is fine, its the people playing it that refuse to store information in their brains to become better at it.

100% in agreement and an obvious example of this is when you have a warrior or a druid or a paladin or a deaf night or a demon Hunter or a monk complaining about no tanks when it is relatively easy to swap your spec

I have played a hybrid for the last eight years and in that time I have never been absolutely 100% dedicated to only one of the three specs because that is a waste of time


Why sit around in a Q for looking for a raid for over 30 minutes if I can simply swap my spec and get in to the instance in five minutes at most

[Sunderella]

There's plenty of reasons for a player to tank. Final Fantasy figured it out

Since I recently bought FFXIV and all its expansions for dirt cheap, could you please elaborate that? Honest question here. I just want to learn how is it any different that wow tanking.