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  1. #1

    False dichotomy: hardcore vs. casual

    Contrary to popular belief, WoW's convenience and "casual" features are not designed to appeal to casuals. Rather, they are designed to appeal to WoW's current core target audience which I will NOT explicitly name until the end of this post because without context, explicitly naming that target audience would result in a ban.

    -AP and similar endless progression grinds-
    There is nothing casual about having to follow a set routine every day in order to progress your character. World and daily quests encourage you to log in every day and do the same repetitive tasks in order to increase your character's power. World quests are by far the bigger offender because their introduction concurred with the introduction of Artifact Power in Legion. With old daily quests, you could get away with doing them for several weeks per character because you got your big power reward upon achieving revered / exalted and further repetition provided no material benefits other than gold. Despite being named "daily" quests, you didn't actually have to do them daily. You could do Sons of Hodir every other day and you'd still unlock your shoulder enchant in the end.
    World quests, on the other hand, encourage repetition over the course of the entire expansion. There is no big power reward upon achieving revered / exalted. Rather, minor power rewards are spread over the entire set of world quests that you could potentially do over the course of the expansion. By skipping a day of world quests, you are not postponing your power reward. You are actually missing out on your daily power reward that will disappear at the end of the day forever. As a result, many people feel like they're "falling behind" if they don't actively do world quests. This never happened with old daily quests.

    Who does this feature appeal to? WoW addicts who feel like they need to get their daily fix of WoW. What does this feature induce? Compulsive addiction towards logging in daily to get your "fix" aka minor power rewards from world quests.

    -Titan/Corruptforging-
    There is nothing casual about having to repeat the same content in order to get the best reward. In older iterations of WoW, you'd move on to the next level of difficulty after exhausting all available rewards from your current level of difficulty in order to grow your character more powerful. Once again, moving on to the next level of difficulty did not necessarily mean that you were going to do content that was harder from a mechanical point of view. It meant that you would do content that was more difficulty from the point of view of your character's stats. Outside of the crazy stunts that world top-100 guilds pull during WF races, there's nothing inherently difficult about WoW's raids. It's just a learning experience that's pretty easy to execute once you've pulled the boss a dozen times or so.
    The big thing about the old system of character progression is that it was finite. Once you exhausted a particular level of difficulty e.g. dungeons, you'd move on to the next thing e.g. raids and wouldn't spend nearly as much time doing dungeons. You'd maybe do them once a day or so for badges (and that was only until you bought all the gear that was purchasable with badges).
    Titan/Corruptforging broke the exhaustability of content. With these systems in place, the person who farms the MOST content is the best geared rather than the person who follows the progression path from easy to more difficult content.

    Who does this feature appeal to? WoW addicts who feel like they need to get their daily fix of WoW. What does this feature induce? Compulsive addiction towards repeating the same content ad nauseum to get your minor power increase from titan/corruptforged gear.

    -LFG and LFR-
    There is nothing casual about obliterating WoW's social experience in order to make running group content more convenient. In reality, many people who play WoW exclusively for social interactions (people who roleplay in major hubs and don't bother progressing their characters otherwise) would argue that it is THEY who are the most casual of WoW's subscribers.
    Adding LFG and LFR along with the introduction of world quests and titan/corruptforging led to the perfect shitstorm in which you would be invited to groups not on the basis of your sociability, but based solely on your stats / rankings / ilvl. In older iterations of WoW, you did not have access to an infinite supply of players willing to run a particular dungeon / raid with you and you had a harder time vetting them because tools like raider.io had not been made yet. Rather, you'd invite people based on their willingness to do a particular dungeon / raid AND their gear and social standing on the server. Now all the people in LFG might as well be faceless drones with IO scores branded on them. There's no need for social interactions. Addons, raider.io and LFG do all the talking for you.

    Who do these features appeal to? Socially awkward people who weren't able to join guilds / be friendly with people / build a reputation in previous iterations of WoW. By introducing these features, Blizzard encourages people to compulsively grind power increases through world quests and titan/corrupforging in order to improve their raider.IO scores / ilvl / whichever flavor of the day metric is considered the most important.

    It's not hard to see why Blizzard went in this direction. In order to retain people who are not addicted and are socially well-adjusted Blizzard would have to release quality, FUN content. Why would those people stay if the content Blizzard releases is shit and their friend networks quit? That's right, they wouldn't.

    Addicted, socially awkward and otherwise mentally unwell people, on the other hand, don't really care about the quality of content. Rather, it's the quantity they're after. They want their daily fix of WoW no matter how bad it is and Blizzard is more than happy to design infinitely grindable features to satisfy their cravings. The longer the content takes to do the better. Why bother designing fun content when you can pump out crap after crap after crap? After all, quantity is much easier to do than quality.

    The shift already started to occur during the Cataclysm when people cried about there being "nothing" to do at max level while never stepping into raids or the arena. There is absolutely nothing casual about modern WoW's infinite grinding. A casual can easily clear all current raiding content while investing minimum time. I played no more than 12 hours a week back during Vanilla-Cataclysm eras and still managed to most of then-current raiding content. That is what I would consider a casual. I can't call myself a casual anymore. I have to dedicate at least two hours a day and that's WITHOUT raiding to just staying relevant with all the endless grinds. With all this bonus shit that I have to do on top of holding down a job, looking after myself and maintaining my hobbies and irl relationships, I don't see myself being able to keep up with these grinds much longer. But Blizzard doesn't care because their addicts will keep giving them endless $$$ as long as they keep pumping out infinite, boring, repeatable, grindy content.

  2. #2
    To me it's all time based with how much one invests into the game. You can have a hardcore scrub that plays 24/7 or a casual Mythic raider that only plays a few hours a week.

  3. #3
    Except you can play less than 12 hours a week and clear all casual content now WITH the introduction of LFR/LFG. You just argued against yourself.
    Also, social aspects in game are not what makes it casual or not. I’m also getting tired of seeing this excuse. Blizzard introducing LFR/LFG did not kill social aspects in the game, the playerbase did when it decided they don’t need to spam LFxM for Y dungeon. Btw, that’s not being social, and neither is forced socialization.
    The casual playerbase also wanted a reason to continue to log in as they didn’t do high endgame content. So Blizzard gave a continuing grind that allows that in place. A way for casuals to keep growing in power at a “for them” pace that allows them to play on their own time.
    A true casual gamer would look at what Blizzard made and say “okay, this works for me.” What you are describing you are angry with is that you want to feel like a hardcore gamer while doing minimalist work as a casual. Well, guess what, you absolutely can pretend to be that with things like corrupted gear giving you a lucky chance at a huge power increase. You can get that with LFR/LFG to clear end game content. This is just a big blog post of why you aren’t happy, not something that Blizzard has objectively done wrong.

  4. #4
    Of course. All such simple slogans/buzzwords are simplifications or just downright falsehoods. You can't describe a community with two words. Anyone with a brain understands that.

    The issue with wow specifically is that people tend to believe that wow is all about raiding (it isn't) and thus doing good at raids means you are a hardcore player (it doesn't) and partaking in other activities makes you a casual (it also doesn't).

    WoW is a very versatile game and that's why I enjoy it so much. It is definitely too complex to describe with a couple simplistic keywords

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    Addicted, socially awkward and otherwise mentally unwell people, on the other hand, don't really care about the quality of content. Rather, it's the quantity they're after. They want their daily fix of WoW no matter how bad it is and Blizzard is more than happy to design infinitely grindable features to satisfy their cravings. The longer the content takes to do the better. Why bother designing fun content when you can pump out crap after crap after crap? After all, quantity is much easier to do than quality.
    This is why not many people complained about flying being gated behind mindless rep grinds and pathfinder achievements. The problem is who the game ends up being played by. It starts up being played by all sorts of people, but ends up being played by mostly the people you perfectly described above.

    People will argue that this and that is bad for the game, bad design, ends up ruining other aspects, etc ,etc, and yes they may be right, but in the end all of it happens at the expense of fun which fully nullifies their arguments.

    Not many people care enough about the game to get on the forums and share their opinions....they have plenty of other games to play and actually enjoy. Those who suffer the most are those who only enjoy the MMORPG genre, like myself, and who still have not found a decent alternative to WoW.
    Last edited by RemasteredClassic; 2020-02-09 at 06:00 AM.

  6. #6
    100% agree. I am a little bit annoyed by all the people complaining about "casual" mechanics in WoW. I would define myself as a casual and all these systems are too boring for me.

    Most of these systems are designed for the people you mentioned above. Blizzard doesn't get feedback from the audience which played WoW at its peak anymore, because most of them already left the game.

    When I read complaints or suggestion threads, where people talk about what to change to bring back more players, the current WoW players only suggest features which would make the game more enjoyable for them. But they are not the casuals who have left WoW back in the day. They are players who enjoy the current systems.

  7. #7
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    If you play WoW on a regular basis - you are not a casual. It doesn't really matter what you do in it.
    Similarly, if you don't grind AP and similar shit (most of your free time) to be at the peak of your performance - you are not hardcore - no matter if you raid or not.

    You are most likely just a Core player (a.k.a. Midcore). The one this game was designed for.

    Raiding doesn't make you hardcore, not raiding doesn't make you a casual.

    A guy who plays AH 20+ hours a week (on average, not just once in a tier) - is the most hardcore player of all mythic raiders.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  8. #8
    Are you just trying to make use of the latest buzzword you learned while pursuing your liberal arts degree?

    This is not a false dichotomy and using the phrase "it is not casual" then going on to explain extreme situations does not make your argument any stronger. The fact of the matter is that many of the systems that you say can be abused by people playing the game too much exist because there also exist people on opposite ends of the spectrum who never bother thinking about these systems because they literally give zero fucks. These people will never log onto a forum to complain because... yikes, they're casual. Yet you'll find overwhelming support of your flawed thinking from people on this forum because it is a very skewed sample size.

    In short, your thread provides nothing new or interesting to the conversation and seems like yet another surface level rebuke of Blizzard's current design philosophy aimed to appeal to the very short-sighted vocal minority which posts here.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    --- snip ---
    No.
    /10char
    Last edited by Aucald; 2020-02-09 at 05:05 PM. Reason: Removed Quote

  10. #10
    One of the reasons I quit WoW back in January of 2019. Things kind of lost their appeal for me. Granted I played since 2005 so it was just time for me to let go. Maybe it's time for you to let go too. It's definitely hard at first, but well worth it. Who knows, maybe a solid break could bring back some zeal you once had for the game once Shadowlands drop.
    Be willing to serve and build up others at any cost. Never be a man of laziness and self absorption. Be willing to grow daily in integrity, strength, and boldness.

  11. #11
    Thanks for the laugh mate.
    Error 404 - Signature not found

  12. #12
    I actually agree with you here even though most of what you said could be applied to earlier iterations of WoW to a lesser degree. The current reward structure appeals to people who are prone to addictive behaviors because it basically mirrors the structure of addiction. Since the introduction of M+, AP and TF, power progression has become a circle of insatiable power growth that is acquired through heavily randomized means with no obtainable end-goal in sight.
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2020-02-09 at 06:24 PM.

  13. #13
    You talk a whole lot without saying anything.

    Cataclysm you say eh?

    Let me enlighten your pathetic little world view: we had Gearscore in WotlK which worked exactly like Raider.io does today: You had a number, and people grouped with you based on that number. I cleared ICC with that number. What is your excuse?

    I bet you are one of those "causal" people on RP servers who do nothing all day but roleplay tauren sex in some random building in OG. Much gameplay.

  14. #14
    Legendary!
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    If there's no official definition of the term, how can it be false? Because you say so? Yeah, world doesn't work like that.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by thilicen View Post
    If there's no official definition of the term, how can it be false? Because you say so? Yeah, world doesn't work like that.
    relaxed and unconcerned/not regular or permanent.

    Btw, anyone who has an account on this site or the official forums with a dozen or more posts that are not all directed to technical stuff/problems literally is a hypocrite if they call themself a casual.

    You are discussing a video game with fellow nerds, you put this much thought into it, even if you are playing irregular you are not a casual.

  16. #16
    We get, you don’t like an AP system and group finders... it was your turn to make the daily post about why they suck... but a D- attempt to shoehorn in the casual v. hardcore conversation.

  17. #17
    About the topic: i can't agree with most of it, the systems in place since legion are pretty much about having no target audience at all, blizzard wants all the players.

    Think about it, you can grind every waking hour without hitting a wall or cap or really hard diminishing returns but on the other hand catch up is insane and gear more plenty than ever before, the systems in place are there so WoW caters to everyone.

    Before that there was a certain optimum/cap you needed to hit and that took a certain time investment to hit that a designer at Blizzard set, not very flexible or scale-able, some players wouldn't be satisfied with it because they had a ton more time and others more casual couldn't get it.

    So i guess that is why we are where we are now.

    Edit: your lfg and lfr part reads like pulled out of your arse, most players are not socially awkward or anything, they don't join guilds and groups because they are casual, they don't care, i got RL friends like that who never do groups or raids without our RL circle because they simply don't care, they aren't invested enough into the game like most players.

    lfg and lfr is rightfully the only way casuals would see endgame content.
    Last edited by Caprias; 2020-02-09 at 06:35 PM.

  18. #18
    I am Murloc! dacoolist's Avatar
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    Take myself: I play a decent amount of time, but I'm bad at the game.. I consider myself a hardcore casual (hardcore for playing a few hours per day) (casual as in skill level for me is SHIT)

  19. #19
    tl;dr for those who misunderstood the point of my original post.

    There are 2 categories of gamers that Blizzard can target:
    1. social gamers
    2. anti-social gamers

    WoW used to be a social game. Organizing 40 man raids, spamming trade to find a group, waiting for longer BG queues because you could only play with your realm ate up a lot of time. But the payoff was that you interacted with other people and formed friendships.

    The problem with targeting social gamers is that their continued subscription is heavily dependent on the networks that they formed as well as the overall quality of the game. Take Cataclysm for example. Many people quit because they didn't like the game's core design anymore. Others, while they liked the game's core design, started to quit because their longstanding friends / guilds quit and they felt discouraged. Designing content for social gamers is inefficient from business PoV because how well they integrate into the game's social structure is an externality the business has no control over and them liking a particular expansion is influenced by subjective factors as well as the objective state of the game.

    Anti-social gamers, on the other hand, don't give a shit about the game's social structure. They effectively play WoW as a lobby / singleplayer game. To them it DOESN'T matter if others quit. Designing content for them is efficient because you can be assured they won't quit en-mass because of network effects. Plus they tend to be mentally unwell and exhibit compulsive behaviors. Hence instead of aiming to design quality content, you can just pump out addictive crap to keep them subscribed.

    WoW's core audience is essentially the second group now.

    Blizzard's shifting direction for WoW was never about casualizing the game. If anything, it's more hardcore than ever now. It was all about their conscious decision to start targeting anti-social, addicted and otherwise mentally unsound people.
    Last edited by Wilfire; 2020-02-09 at 06:55 PM.

  20. #20
    I think the difference between casual and hard-core isn't time or level of gaming. It's about commitment.

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