So when will Blizzard stop giving players rental powers?

[morningstar123]

Wow,the complaints in this thread are all over the place. We got some saying it is lazy to reuse the same systems. Others saying it is shitty to use new systems every expansion. And some other random complaints that make no sense. It looks like you are all playing different games or do not understand the game you are playing

[kaminaris]

The catch-up system for the neck is the same one that the weapon had right from the start too, merely reversed so that now levels get cheaper whereas in Legion you got more AP. It was pretty rough for alts and off-specs early in Legion though, for sure. However, that problem was fixed and BfA merely retains that fix (and a bunch of new improved screw ups were added).

You seem to forget that you had 2-4 legion artifacts, so AP, talents in there, crucible relics were separate per spec.
Neck and essences are one, for all specs.

You wanted to play offspec at later patch of Legion? Too bad, farm relics, farm AP for that spec. So no, it's not even comparable.

I don't find a whole lot of improved QoL over Legion.

Well, for starters we don't have legiondaries, that is massive QoL. Neck has hardcap artifact didn't. We don't have to farm veiled argunite to get unstable arcanocrystal.
Tier sets take 3 slots instead of 6 and have a vendor which sells them.

And why is it boring? Because the base class kits were so sparse, being the result of several expansions of 'trimming' and losing a bunch of stuff when the weapons went as well. Many specs were just a skeleton, barely functional enough to level with, and even now the azerite traits don't actually fix that, merely disguise it with band-aids made of big numbers.

Well, maybe because people got addicted to power like glue sniffing addicts and expects fireworks to happen on every move? I really don't get this idea of "boring".
Having less buttons doesn't mean it's boring.

[Muajin76]

Artifacts, Azerite, Essences, Corruption.

All these powers came for an expansion and then got taken away with a few "player-favorite" traits implemented into the classes' core, and leaving us with the feeling of bland class depth.

They replace one another, buy the feeling of "class complexity" but sometimes (especially in BFA and 8.2/8.3) they are so powerful, that it makes me feel like im playing not my class, but the rental power Blizzard gave me for two years.

Can we just get, i dont know, the big pool of talents, PvE/PvP/Legendary/Essences/Corruptions combined, like, 80+ talents for each class that could be unlocked 1 per level?

Then the player can choose the set of ~10 talents they pick from the unlocked pool. On the cap they will get full variety of PvP/PvE combinations they can use for PvE and PvP content.

Someone would mention the balance, but its essentially the same pool we have now, but combined, without split on PvP and PvE. Tune the numbers and we will be fine. Class balance isnt perfect anyway.

Just stop giving us toys and then taking them from us and replacing with another (as practice tells - way worse) toys.

Soo..would renting a mercenary be wrong to you?

[Kalisandra]

You seem to forget that you had 2-4 legion artifacts, so AP, talents in there, crucible relics were separate per spec.
Neck and essences are one, for all specs.

Essences are not one for all specs. A fair number are for individual specs.

You wanted to play offspec at later patch of Legion? Too bad, farm relics, farm AP for that spec. So no, it's not even comparable.

Didn't find it any more annoying than farming stuff this expac, and for alts it was easier, frankly.

We don't have to farm veiled argunite to get unstable arcanocrystal.

No, just farm random drops hoping for good corruptions on decent pieces of gear.

[rhorle]

Essences are not one for all specs. A fair number are for individual specs.

They are for role type. They are shared across all specs of the same role. This is why you don't need to unlock multiple vision of perfections just to use it for both Demonology and Destruction even though it impacts two separate spec abilities.

[Kokolums]

Without "rental powers" as you put it, people could buy carries to max out their toon. Rental powers forces people to actually play the game. Otherwise, I can just buy a mythic carry for gold and gear up.

[Dracullus]

Lazy is just a handwaving buzzword some people use to label anything they don't like because they can't think of an actual argument for why it's bad. Clunky is another. It's basically "lol I called Blizz lazy I won argument!"

Oh we have more of this. "They did it to increase MAUs", "It's all Activision fault", etc. Seriously, I think many people don't even know what MAU is, in their mind it's some evil idol from Acti-Blizz shamans.

[Niroshi]

Without "rental powers" as you put it, people could buy carries to max out their toon. Rental powers forces people to actually play the game. Otherwise, I can just buy a mythic carry for gold and gear up.

This is not true at all. There are quite a few very strong Essences that are trivial to get and the necklace now is basically automatically punted to 55 with 70 easily within reach. You can burn through cloak levels extremely fast too off the back of basic gear. You can buy gold, mythic carries and be competitive probably in less than a week. No difference from older systems.

Your argument didn't work in Legion either as one AP item on a new alt eventually just put you like 10 ranks behind everyone else or something crazy.

Rental power just lets them slack on creating interesting specs. They don't need to make any systems that stand the test of time, or deal with small tweaks to core gimmicks in a spec. They can just throw shit like Igneous Potential at a spec and let it limp through content for 2 years barely functional.

Honestly thinking about it, that annoys the hell out of me. All of the pieces are there for every spec in the game to have some interesting pole to build a spec's gameplay around. Affliction used to have stuff like Soulburn and Reap Soul. Warlock themes have always included rituals and demonic summoning. Between Malefic Grasp, Shadow Bolt Nightfall procs, rituals, demons, Reap Soul, Soulburn, Haunt, etc there is enough there to build a killer Affliction spec. It nearly designs itself when you look at the pieces they've added and removed over the years and they still prefer this rented shit.

[Swnem]

Wow,the complaints in this thread are all over the place. We got some saying it is lazy to reuse the same systems. Others saying it is shitty to use new systems every expansion. And some other random complaints that make no sense. It looks like you are all playing different games or do not understand the game you are playing

I see a pattern though. No one likes it.

[rhorle]

Rental power just lets them slack on creating interesting specs. They don't need to make any systems that stand the test of time, or deal with small tweaks to core gimmicks in a spec. They can just throw shit like Igneous Potential at a spec and let it limp through content for 2 years barely functional.

Except they can do both. Tweak specs and give "rental power". Just as they can do one or the other. You are acting like they have to pick and we know they haven't just picked because they have done both in Legion and Battle for Azeroth. Just because it doesn't fit what people want it is suddenly this flavor of the month "Rental Power".

They have thrown gimmicks and abilities at classes and had them limp through patches, or expansions, in past systems. Look at how many times it took them to get Demonology Warlocks into a "good" design. Heck they even did that in an expansion with rental power which seems to poke holes in your argument.

[Niroshi]

Except they can do both. Tweak specs and give "rental power". Just as they can do one or the other. You are acting like they have to pick and we know they haven't just picked because they have done both in Legion and Battle for Azeroth. Just because it doesn't fit what people want it is suddenly this flavor of the month "Rental Power".

They have thrown gimmicks and abilities at classes and had them limp through patches, or expansions, in past systems. Look at how many times it took them to get Demonology Warlocks into a "good" design. Heck they even did that in an expansion with rental power which seems to poke holes in your argument.

There's no reason to give them so much credit when they're pretty much 0/2 on having well designed classes with rental power systems. You can hold up Demonology as your example as to how it can work, but I'd like to remind you that Demonology in its current form, or its Legion form, is still lesser than its MoP form. It has not benefited much from this era of rented power and the small crumbs Legion threw it were removed in BFA as with everything else Legion threw us.

[Sondrelk]

Blizzard will stop giving rental gear when players stop asking for items that feel good to get and that change the way you play your spec.
In a world completely void of rental gear your character would get a single set of armor when levelling that would not change ever.

Personally i am much more interested in raids dropping interesting items like when Rastakhan dropped an item that made you more powerful in Zuldazar, or when i get a cool trinket like the Blademaster's mirror from HFC.
I am sure some players also quite liked tier sets, which is possibly among the most blatant levels of rental gear. You get it once, use it for a tier, then scrap it the next.

[Gaidax]

It's easier to stabilize the game and make the game feel different each expansion. Plus, if we had a new power every expansion, the game would be so hard to learn for new players. Overall it's a good thing.

Pretty much all there needs be said.

I personally like this approach, it prevents another Cataclysm where you get classes with literal soup of random shit packed from 3 expansions creating pure cancer gameplay of 500 buttons with zillion damage sources parses that ends up pruned to the ground next expansion.

I'd rather have decent and clean base template for each spec and then 1-2 seasonal/expansion abilities that are added and then changed next season/expansion.

[kaminaris]

There's no reason to give them so much credit when they're pretty much 0/2 on having well designed classes with rental power systems. You can hold up Demonology as your example as to how it can work, but I'd like to remind you that Demonology in its current form, or its Legion form, is still lesser than its MoP form. It has not benefited much from this era of rented power and the small crumbs Legion threw it were removed in BFA as with everything else Legion threw us.

Nonononono

Pre legion demonology was garbage in both gameplay and having spec-identity. It was literally a demon hunter knock off.

[Gaidax]

Nonononono

Pre legion demonology was garbage in both gameplay and having spec-identity. It was literally a demon hunter knock off.

As a guy who played mostly Demo from WoTLK to BRF in MoP - Demo got progressively worse with time.

I actually do think that Meta for Demo was a giant mistake from a get go, because as a guy who played titles before WoW I literally face-desked myself when I seen them giving Meta to locks, especially after all this DH teasing in TBC. In WoTLK, overall demo played really nicely, it was not really a "demon summoner" spec, but more of a nuker spec with bigger pet and Meta was pretty much a simple DPS CD really.

Then they started adding more bullshit in Cata and with MoP it became this stance dance cancer, which culminated in WoD being absolute shit to play carried only by being overtuned as fuck with spells that made no sense whatsoever, were counter intuitive and generally felt weak because it ended up being a spec that tried to be everything at once - pets, dots, nukes, forms, burst - this made every individual spell hit like a wet noodle and you had a lot of those wet noodles - almost random abilities.

I am glad they did what they did with Legion - it had to be done. I do wish they would review it a bit in Shadowlands, because nowadays Demo plays well, but its niches are not really viable in core content. You can't really have ST only + burst AoE ranged spec with shoddy mobility in a world where spread cleave or multidotting is generally king.

[kaminaris]

As a guy who played mostly Demo from WoTLK to BRF in MoP - Demo got progressively worse with time.

I actually do think that Meta for Demo was a giant mistake from a get go, because as a guy who played titles before WoW I literally face-desked myself when I seen them giving Meta to locks, especially after all this DH teasing in TBC. In WoTLK, overall demo played really nicely, it was not really a "demon summoner" spec, but more of a nuker spec with bigger pet and Meta was pretty much a simple DPS CD really.

Then they started adding more bullshit in Cata and with MoP it became this stance dance cancer, which culminated in WoD being absolute shit to play carried only by being overtuned as fuck with spells that made no sense whatsoever, were counter intuitive and generally felt weak because it ended up being a spec that tried to be everything at once - pets, dots, nukes, forms, burst - this made every individual spell hit like a wet noodle and you had a lot of those wet noodles - almost random abilities.

I am glad they did what they did with Legion - it had to be done. I do wish they would review it a bit in Shadowlands, because nowadays Demo plays well, but its niches are not really viable in core content. You can't really have ST only + burst AoE ranged spec with shoddy mobility in a world where spread cleave or multidotting is generally king.

As I guy who played all classes and specs since MoP. Demo currently is the best iteration that has been ever created, not only the best iteration but the best spec in entire WoW history by so large margin nothing can even hold a candle to it.

Demo may not be the best but is still viable on single target and SUSTAINED (but stacked) aoe, not burst. Thus it is still best spec for M+. Nevertheless that is numerical balance issue where blizzard simply cannot handle.

[rhorle]

There's no reason to give them so much credit when they're pretty much 0/2 on having well designed classes with rental power systems. You can hold up Demonology as your example as to how it can work, but I'd like to remind you that Demonology in its current form, or its Legion form, is still lesser than its MoP form. It has not benefited much from this era of rented power and the small crumbs Legion threw it were removed in BFA as with everything else Legion threw us.

There is no reason to deny that it can happen when it already has happened. Do they always hit the mark? No. But the existence of "rental power" does not mean classes can't be good. Barely anything was taken from Demonology with BfA in terms of power so if anything it would have been a trade between Legion and BfA. But your opinion of Demonology proves my point.

Rental power and Class changes can coexist. They certainly need to work on it more but your assertion that it allows them to slack on creating interesting classes is dumb. Because it doesn't. In order for rental power to really shine you need a good class to use as a base. If the class doesn't shine then the rental power will not as well. Or its loss will be felt more then it should be. But that is just the nature of expansions and classes. Each expansion tries something and some things get pruned while others baked into the class. The spell modifiers of WoD were baked into many of the classes. Just as some of the Legion artifacts were added in a similar form to classes for BfA (Like with ret pally).

And as for MoP Demo being superior or not that is just a matter of opinion. Some like the new style and fantasy. Some like the old. I miss parts of the old but like most of the new. I miss demon form (and the hand of gul'dan landing) but I think I do prefer the style of game play now. But talking about demonology is not the purpose of this thread.

[Gaidax]

Thus it is still best spec for M+.

Spec that has no interrupt will never be "best" spec for M+. It was ok there (and helped by a fact that 2 other specs were shit for M+), but not really holding a candle to melee train there. Now that Destruction caught up with its own bullshit and having interrupt on top of that, I'm not even sure Demo is particularly good for anything nowadays.

If you want to push really high keys then Demo is not something to bring over much stronger picks, while anything mainstream M+ - Destruction does just fine anyway and kicks ass in Raids and PvP on top of that.

That's why I'm saying that despite Demo playing really well - it's almost useless as it is now because its niches simply do not justify using it over other options for Warlocks. Demo simply needs another niche to be actually viable - maybe some way to give it reasonable and snappy spread cleave. I mean, it is a commander of Demonic army - sounds to me like they can figure out how you as such accomplished tactician can divide your forces on the fly.

Of course they can simply overtune it balls to the wall and create yet another WoD situation, but that will inevitably be nerfbatted back and likely to shitty state, just like Spriests now.

[kaminaris]

Spec that has no interrupt will never be "best" spec for M+. It was ok there (and helped by a fact that 2 other specs were shit for M+), but not really holding a candle to melee train there. Now that Destruction caught up with its own bullshit and having interrupt on top of that, I'm not even sure Demo is particularly good for anything nowadays.

It is, destro still doesn't have any sustained aoe. Only has burst. But well, demo does needs a buff. And a damn interrupt baseline

[Gaidax]

It is, destro still doesn't have any sustained aoe. Only has burst. But well, demo does needs a buff. And a damn interrupt baseline

Top class M+ leaderboards are filled with Destros for a good reason. The burst is ridiculous and is frequent enough to have teams play around it.

Demo is really unnecessary nowadays for M+ as Warlock, for the reasons I already stated - you do as well with Destruction and on top of that it's a great spec for raiding and FOTM in PvP.

Overall Warlocks are still weaker pick for M+, but as I said - if you want your +15 keys - you don't need to play Demo and if you want to push hard to the top - you don't bring Warlock anyway. Which leaves Demo with literally no use nowadays, unless you simply want to gimp yourself.

Demo is a spec that plays great, but it almost useless as it is now, given the great alternative just one click away. Blizz needs to address that in Shadowlands - Demo was always an underdog after rework, but right now it's simply pointless because its toolkit does not really cater to content we have.