Tank + Heal + Dps = Is this the only way the game can work?

[MatthiasLehner]

Blizzard forced this on HotS, Overwatch as well and this basically killed the games in many regions.
Simply because most of the time, non-dps are just not as fun and not wanted from the player base, yet Blizzard continues this design.



The games that flourished like Battleground style, requires teamwork but no one is forced to play a certain role by the system.
Everyone's able to perform the same roles, but people are given same set of capabilities within the game, and it's your choices that decide the roles. (I prefer to be a camper sniper, I rather be a scout for the team, I love collecting grenades and great at using them, etc)



Of course, we're comparing MMORPG and another genre, so if we consider other MMOs,
the system usually tends to be similar; making me think is it really the only way.


WoW relies on this almost outdated T + H + D system without almost 0 changes for over a decade and
a lot of players tend to avoid Tank roles due to pressure of being the leader in charge.


Ultimately though, had the dungeons and raids offer different design, this system wouldn't be required.
So I believe it's the game design that can be updated or tested in different ways.


What do you think?

[Alvito]

One big problem they run into every time they try to do something that doesn't need this set up, people that love playing tanks or healers get pissed off and in many ways shit on by the design. Since they are a crucial role for the main PVE features it is poor design to lean on them so hard in some areas and leave them out in the cold in others.

[Ragnarohk]

I actually enjoy the trinity system. Mostly play healer/tank.

I played some GW2 back when it was new and remember disliking how roles were not clearly defined.

If anything, it would be nice if they added a 4th role. A support role focused on Debuffing/Buffing. But it would be a nightmare to balance I guess.

[Kralljin]

I disagree.

At the end of the day, someone has to take the aggro from mobs and face them, if that entirely falls on some random dps that happens to do the most aggro, that's a terrible design.
I mean, it's part of an RPG that a guy who actually specialized itself on defense to take the huge hits and not just some guy.

The Tank / Healer / Dps is a pillar because it is a basic concept of teamwork, tank keeps aggro, heal keeps everyone alive, dps kills everything.

Like, what do you want to remove here?
Healers? Sure, let's just delete specs that a core pillar of fantasy for every healer class.
Tanks? Yeah, let the Mage tank the Boss, who cares?

It's a problem in literally every teamsport.
Everybody wants to play striker when it comes to soccer because they're the ones getting the fame, but you can't play a proper game with 11 strikers on both sides.

In WoW this effect is amplified by the fact in your dungeon group, you only have a single tank / healer.
Meaning that if you screw up, the group is screwed, but even that has become less of a thing as classes have become far less reliant on other people.

If your tank is incompetent, it doesn't matter in lower difficulties because most trash / bosses can even be tanked by a dps for some time, it's not TBC heroics where aggro = death.
If your healer is incompetent, it again doesn't matter matter as much because most tanks have pretty decent active mitigation / self heal that they barely need any heals.
Almost any dps has absorb / self heal, so they aren't as reliant on a healer as well.

The game has really changed on that front that a group can compensate a less skilled healer / tank (at the detriment of class fantasy, but that's another story).

It's really just this perception of "I'm the only one, if i fail, everybody will be mad at me", despite the fact that in lower difficulties, you really need to fail on a grand scale that it will actually lead to a wipe.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Obviously this is not the only way, as there are other models out there. The reality is simply that changing it now is too late and would alienate too many people.

- - - Updated - - -

At the end of the day, someone has to take the aggro from mobs and face them, if that entirely falls on some random dps that happens to do the most aggro, that's a terrible design.
I mean, it's part of an RPG that a guy who actually specialized itself on defense to take the huge hits and not just some guy.

Plenty of ways to deal with this in a different way, highest agro + closest, you can assign positioning "costs" that affect who gets targeted and some other ways. There is no rule that combat has to be as floaty as in WoW where players have only very limted collision checks with non-static objects in the gameworld.

[melodramocracy]

Its a very good system for mmos. When not applied, you get awful combat like GW2.

Its a terrible system for fps games.

[Azerate]

It's not. But WoW has always worked that way and there's no good reason to change that. At least for certain types of content, there's plenty of content that is doable by dps players only.

[Anastacy]

The holy trinity used to be Warrior, Cleric, and Enchanter/Shaman (Enchanter necessary when CC was crucial, Shaman otherwise for superior debuffs).

WoW never had a strong “support role” archetype, if we discount “healing” as “support”.

If CC’ing and buffing/debuffing were more essential to the game, there could have been bigger variety.

Never found anything in any MMO as fun as being an Enchanter in EQ and keeping a room of 5-10 mobs on lockdown while we killed them 1 by 1.

[Nfinitii]

Blizzard forced this on HotS, Overwatch as well and this basically killed the games in many regions.
Simply because most of the time, non-dps are just not as fun and not wanted from the player base, yet Blizzard continues this design.



The games that flourished like Battleground style, requires teamwork but no one is forced to play a certain role by the system.
Everyone's able to perform the same roles, but people are given same set of capabilities within the game, and it's your choices that decide the roles. (I prefer to be a camper sniper, I rather be a scout for the team, I love collecting grenades and great at using them, etc)



Of course, we're comparing MMORPG and another genre, so if we consider other MMOs,
the system usually tends to be similar; making me think is it really the only way.


WoW relies on this almost outdated T + H + D system without almost 0 changes for over a decade and
a lot of players tend to avoid Tank roles due to pressure of being the leader in charge.


Ultimately though, had the dungeons and raids offer different design, this system wouldn't be required.
So I believe it's the game design that can be updated or tested in different ways.


What do you think?

What system do u think blizzard should go to that’s better than the tank/healer/dps?

Every system has flaws, just because it does doesn’t mean it needs to be replaced or fixed.

I can’t think of any that would be better.

[deenman]

I actually enjoy the trinity system. Mostly play healer/tank.

I played some GW2 back when it was new and remember disliking how roles were not clearly defined.

If anything, it would be nice if they added a 4th role. A support role focused on Debuffing/Buffing. But it would be a nightmare to balance I guess.

oh yeah,I rly wish they would add a true support class,but blizz in recent years seems unable to copy good stuff from other games,like housing for example,would be an amazing adition to the game if done right like in wildstar

[Shelly]

City of Heroes was entirely built with support in mind as a 4th role.

Fun fact though, in order for everyone to not just roll a healer supports had to be incredibly OP. So you'd have power sets that could slow every enemy they faced by 100% and buff all your recharge abilities by 100% and others that would buff your recharge as well as your resource regen. Still another set would give everyone 50% dodge and it all needed to be on a fairly short CD to really make supports useful.

Whereas WoW spreads support around and it's put on long CDs. This is mostly because WoW is a PvE game and the purpose of support is to grant a specific buff at just the right time to avoid a hefty chunk of damage from a boss. The support abilities offered are pretty powerful but also a secondary part of your toolkit - even for healers. Yet for being secondary a properly timed Darkness, Commanding Shout or even just a big slow from a hunter's Tar Trap can save a raid.

Anyhow, WoW had their choice and made it. Adding in another role at this point would probably be too disruptive to the game as a whole and they've decided the most powerful support they want to really offer is the ability to rewind damage through healing.

[Lulbalance]

I support anything lowers our reliance on tanks.

[Darkimpact]

THD is and always has been the bedrock of dungeon grinding games. I think you could add a support class type and be fine, and really old wow did this to some extent with various DPS sacrificing their damage for buffs (curses, winters chill, hunters in general, Nightfall does this too). The issue is that system requires limits set on each support for balance which leads to niche required classes that don't feel fun or are required, something Blizz moved away from.

[spalernTJ]

I wish they would double down on the roles tbh. Make them even more defined and create actual consequences for each respectively. Corruption system for example, if anyone fucks up, it's mostly the healer who gets the consequences, as they have to cover for others mistakes. as every punishment is centered around damage, and yet all the meta corruption effects are only about doing damage.

Same goes for affixes. Explosive? If DPS doesn't do it right, the entire group takes damage, again punishing the healer more than anything, unless it's an instant wipe of course. Sanguin? Prolonging fights, likely causing more work for the healer. Necrotic? Bad tank? Healer again has to compensate.

I'd like to see less raw damage being the punishment for every mechanic in the game. What if the negative effects for corruption was tailor made for classes? Healers fucking up? Lose mana. DPS fucking up? Get a reduced damage debuff. Tank fucking up? Lose threat. And affixes, in a gamemode that is all about clear speed, why not put time waste punishments into the mix instead of damage? Reduce Explosive damage, make it stun. Grievous, less damage, stacking slow.

[OldPerson]

Trying to think through a run with no tank needed....
Basically people look for the path of least resistance.
Ultimately one person would still be grabbing the Lion's share of the aggro and would ultimately be designated the "group tank" by the rest of the group who do not want to deal with individual responsibility.

For myself. I prefer the trinity. I'm just not interested in the demands players seem to add-on to each position (tanks MUST lead and be the most knowledgeable player in the group, healers and dps MUST be specced in a very specific manner). Such things are not mutually inclusive but are treated as such by the community at large.
I wouldn't mind if they started developing more content that blurs the lines of what will work in a group dynamic. Could be fun (though slower paced) to be in a run with an extra tank or two healers as a matter of choice (not necessity). But then I am not a meta-gamer and prefer to just enjoy playing a fantasy RPG with some friends.

[Revi]

To me the THD gameplay is vastly superior to other systems I've seen in MMOs. Maybe it's possible that one day someone will figure out an alternative that works even better, but imo that hasn't happened yet. Maybe I'm biased as I've always tanked in raids and dungeon content, and I like that role.

The only thing I miss is the support role. I played with an excellent enhancement shaman in TBC, both in raids and in my usual dungeon group, and with the way they worked as group-buffers/utility at the time, he was the key to absolutely demolishing dungeons, far more valuable than another pure DPS would have been. It's probably very hard to balance, but I think that kind of role would be a nice addition to the THD-trinity.

[CostinR]

I'm sure there are ways Blizzard could change it and make it work, but with another game not WoW.

[cuafpr]

I think one or 2 games have tried most notably GW2 and its just blah for grouping... I think the way T+H+D is done can be improved through better AI but replaced nope. I don't think wow could do it but think of a game where players couldn't pass through each other and tank(s) could block a hallway while dps and heals stood behind them. Less about agro and more protecting the party. After all with better AI a mob would see the healer and know to go after them first.

[rrayy]

oh yeah,I rly wish they would add a true support class,but blizz in recent years seems unable to copy good stuff from other games,like housing for example,would be an amazing adition to the game if done right like in wildstar

They are in no way unable to copy anything. They just don't think it is good for their game. Players need to stop acting like WOW absolutely needs it simply because other games have it.,

[callipygoustp]

Having played RPGs for the past 40 years or so, in a wide variety of mediums, I can't imagine NOT having healers and tanks.