Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[I Push Buttons]

Interesting. Are doctors paid a LOT of money compared to the average salary such as in the United States?

Essentially Canada has a government run healthcare plan that doesn't have any insurance companies, etc. I know that's a pretty basic question/statement, but I'm trying to figure out what the essential problem is with the U.S. system, and it seems to be the privately run health insurance companies.

Insurance companies are only one small part of the problem. The exorbitant cost of US healthcare is a combination of a multitude of things.

- Tons of bureaucracy, much of it redundant multiple times over. (IE: Instead of there being one overarching system, every individual hospital system is doing their own thing.)
- Pretty much everyone working at all levels of the healthcare industry expect to be paid well in the US...
- People in the US have, a lot of the time, come to expect a much higher level of care so to speak; that costs more money... For example, where in many other countries you might go into a hospital and wait around a little while and eventually get a bed in a big ward with dozens of other beds separated by sliding curtains, in many US hospitals, you will go in and wait far less (if at all, depending on location) and get a bed in a private room.
- Insurance companies are small part of the problem, but their profit margins, however small, are still a markup.
- Drugs prices are another issue, but once again, just part of the problem.
- Another big problem is people delaying treatment due to cost. As in having a problem for months, but never going to a doctor about it because they don't want to spend a lot of money on the visit/tests, then months later the problem is much worse, forcing them to go to a doctor because they can't stand it any longer and requiring far more extensive intervention than if they had gone earlier.
- Our healthcare services are used more... Our people are fatter and unhealthier than many other countries, we have more violent crime (relative to Europe), we are significantly larger geographically so far more driving and thus far more car accidents, etc... Every little thing is just more spending.

[Endus]

Interesting. Are doctors paid a LOT of money compared to the average salary such as in the United States?

Probably not, but "I'm gonna make SO much money" isn't the motivation we really want motivating people to become doctors, to begin with. It's still comfortably six-figure. It's difficult to assess, since while a physician might be taking in ~$300k Canadian a year, that's gross income. It does not include office rents, servicing, supplies, insurance, staff salaries, etc. They still generally make north of $200k before taxes, but it varies a lot by speciality.

Essentially Canada has a government run healthcare plan that doesn't have any insurance companies, etc. I know that's a pretty basic question/statement, but I'm trying to figure out what the essential problem is with the U.S. system, and it seems to be the privately run health insurance companies.

It really is.

Canada has private insurance companies, but they cover those secondary things that public health care doesn't; vision, dental, prescriptions, and room upgrades and such if admitted to hospital. These aren't generally health-critical, and where they are, they often get covered by the public system.

There's a profit motive, in the USA. That's the corruption. Profit is, fundamentally, a form of inefficiency. You have expenses to pay for production, and you have the sales from production, and then expansion considerations and such, and then whatever's left over is profit (loosely speaking). If your margins are 5% profits, then in terms of your business, it's not functionally different from if your staff were grifting 5% of your product out the door to sell on the black market, or managers shifting those funds into personal accounts. The difference is that the shareholder profit "grift" is formalized and legalized, at the express expense of the workers and customers, who enjoy lower salaries/benefits and higher prices, respectively, to allow for that "grift" of profit.

Sure, it's unfair to claim that it's like stealing, but it's a question of where in that process value is taken out, and for whose benefit. Profit incentivizes the wealthy's benefit at the expense of everyone else in society. Even Adam Smith knew this; it was a key part of what he was attacking about mercantilist economics, and what he was proposing capitalism to improve upon. Because he saw that governments needed to support consumers, not producers. Within that focus, profit incentives would maximize self-interest while regulation oversaw public interest, and things should work out. What he didn't foresee is that this "self-interest" would involve attacking that regulatory oversight, and refocusing government's attention on business interests, rather than the public's.

Which is why countries like the USA are trending back towards mercantilism, away from Adam Smith's capitalist proposals.

[Milchshake]

Google trends from last night's debate. Maybe the Buttimentum is real.

I do find it weird people in Vermont are just now googling their senator. Let the vetting begin.

[Endus]

Insurance companies are only one small part of the problem. The exorbitant cost of US healthcare is a combination of a multitude of things.

- Tons of bureaucracy, much of it redundant multiple times over. (IE: Instead of there being one overarching system, every individual hospital system is doing their own thing.)
- Pretty much everyone working at all levels of the healthcare industry expect to be paid well in the US...
- People in the US have, a lot of the time, come to expect a much higher level of care so to speak; that costs more money... For example, where in many other countries you might go into a hospital and wait around a little while and eventually get a bed in a big ward with dozens of other beds separated by sliding curtains, in many US hospitals, you will go in and wait far less (if at all, depending on location) and get a bed in a private room.
- Insurance companies are small part of the problem, but their profit margins, however small, are still a markup.
- Drugs prices are another issue, but once again, just part of the problem.
- Another big problem is people delaying treatment due to cost. As in having a problem for months, but never going to a doctor about it because they don't want to spend a lot of money on the visit/tests, then months later the problem is much worse, forcing them to go to a doctor because they can't stand it any longer and requiring far more extensive intervention than if they had gone earlier.
- Our healthcare services are used more... Our people are fatter and unhealthier than many other countries, we have more violent crime (relative to Europe), we are significantly larger geographically so far more driving and thus far more car accidents, etc... Every little thing is just more spending.

1> Hospitals are privately and, often, separately owned in Canada (as in, the same organization may only own the one hospital, not a massive chain). The lack of bureaucracy is the lack of insurance bureaucracy.

2> Literally everyone in every field expects reasonable pay. C'mon.

3> Wait times in the USA aren't much shorter than in Canada. And where they are, it's because they've denied care to someone. When you kick people out of the line, the line gets shorter. That doesn't mean things are working out for those who got kicked out of line. Quality of care is comparable between the USA and Canada. You're essentially just wrong on this point.

4> Not much to say, but insurance margins are only a fraction of the issue.

5> Drug prices are high because insurance companies collaborate on pricing. It's a system pharmacorps, insurance providers, and hospitals are all colluding on. Because they know the customer can't just walk away. This is also why systems like Canada's get the drugs so much cheaper; their value is much lower than what Americans are being forced to pay.

6> And those costs are set by hospitals, to make more money, leading to worse health outcomes. Yes, that's the point.

7> This is directly contradicting #6. Also, "larger geographically" is almost cartoonishly false when compared to Canada, which is what Cubby and I were discussing. The USA is much denser than Canada, in terms of population distribution.

[bmjclark]

Man, those NH polls for Biden are not pretty. It's looking like he's in for another pretty devastating loss. If he fell in other states anywhere near as much as he did in NH he's going to be having a rough couple of weeks. He may just continue his primary tradition of not being able to win a single state.

[Masark]

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile...and-mcconnell/

[PACOX]

Insurance companies are only one small part of the problem. The exorbitant cost of US healthcare is a combination of a multitude of things.

- Tons of bureaucracy, much of it redundant multiple times over. (IE: Instead of there being one overarching system, every individual hospital system is doing their own thing.)
- Pretty much everyone working at all levels of the healthcare industry expect to be paid well in the US...
- People in the US have, a lot of the time, come to expect a much higher level of care so to speak; that costs more money... For example, where in many other countries you might go into a hospital and wait around a little while and eventually get a bed in a big ward with dozens of other beds separated by sliding curtains, in many US hospitals, you will go in and wait far less (if at all, depending on location) and get a bed in a private room.
- Insurance companies are small part of the problem, but their profit margins, however small, are still a markup.
- Drugs prices are another issue, but once again, just part of the problem.
- Another big problem is people delaying treatment due to cost. As in having a problem for months, but never going to a doctor about it because they don't want to spend a lot of money on the visit/tests, then months later the problem is much worse, forcing them to go to a doctor because they can't stand it any longer and requiring far more extensive intervention than if they had gone earlier.
- Our healthcare services are used more... Our people are fatter and unhealthier than many other countries, we have more violent crime (relative to Europe), we are significantly larger geographically so far more driving and thus far more car accidents, etc... Every little thing is just more spending.

Most of what you described are symptoms of an industry ruled by for profit insurance companies.

[mvaliz]

Awwwwwww, look at you, becoming everything you loathe, and not the wits to realize it.

The Bernie Bros phenomena is now a documented effect - your kind has people out there that would rather Trump win over another democrat that isn't your candidate. How you deal with that reality is your decision. I've committed to voting for any of the current primary contenders - even Bernie.

Have you?

I honestly at this point in the thread can't tell the two of you apart enough to even care. =/

I mean, even that statement I boldfaced is really projection. The Cubby I know doesn't write childish shit like that.

[cubby]

Insurance companies are only one small part of the problem. The exorbitant cost of US healthcare is a combination of a multitude of things.

Gonna go line-by-line here, imo most of what you've said is wrong.

- Tons of bureaucracy, much of it redundant multiple times over. (IE: Instead of there being one overarching system, every individual hospital system is doing their own thing.)

Agreed here - a fully unified state/federal system would eliminate this particular problem. The biggest issue here is that the only federally run healthcare system we have is the VA, and that is a total shit show. @Endus - could we hire some Canadian peeps to revamp everything? EVERYTHING.

- Pretty much everyone working at all levels of the healthcare industry expect to be paid well in the US...

No, they don't. Not even close to other countries. Some of the healthcare fields do expect high pay, but not "everyone".

- People in the US have, a lot of the time, come to expect a much higher level of care so to speak; that costs more money... For example, where in many other countries you might go into a hospital and wait around a little while and eventually get a bed in a big ward with dozens of other beds separated by sliding curtains, in many US hospitals, you will go in and wait far less (if at all, depending on location) and get a bed in a private room.

Higher than...Canada? England? Those countries have fantastic care. Maybe elaborate....

- Insurance companies are small part of the problem, but their profit margins, however small, are still a markup.

Agreed. But not sure why you're saying this again, unless there was more re the insurance companies you wanted to add.

- Drugs prices are another issue, but once again, just part of the problem.

Agreed. Unfortunately, there isn't much in the way around this. IIRC, the U.S. is where drug prices are high because everyone else gets subsidized. We eat the development costs, basically. What do you think?

- Another big problem is people delaying treatment due to cost. As in having a problem for months, but never going to a doctor about it because they don't want to spend a lot of money on the visit/tests, then months later the problem is much worse, forcing them to go to a doctor because they can't stand it any longer and requiring far more extensive intervention than if they had gone earlier.

Which would be fixed with a Canadian-like system, where people aren't put off appropriate treatment because of "costs". And more importantly, regular preventative treatment would be significantly easier to get. It's always MUCH less expensive to prevent than to treat.

- Our healthcare services are used more... Our people are fatter and unhealthier than many other countries, we have more violent crime (relative to Europe), we are significantly larger geographically so far more driving and thus far more car accidents, etc... Every little thing is just more spending.

No. Not at all. We have more people, obviously, but that means we also have more of the resources that build and maintain appropriate healthcare systems. This sentiment above is entirely wrong, and moreover, it paves the way for seriously dishonest arguments against systematic revamping of the U.S.' healthcare system.

- - - Updated - - -

I honestly at this point in the thread can't tell the two of you apart enough to even care. =/

I mean, even that statement I boldfaced is really projection. The Cubby I know doesn't write childish shit like that.

The Bernie Bros phenomenon is a VERY serious problem. People like the ones I quoted, those that ignore the problem. You used the word "projection" - are you implying that I don't have the wits to realize that the Bernie Bros are a serious issue for the DNC?

[mvaliz]

The Bernie Bros phenomenon is a VERY serious problem. People like the ones I quoted, those that ignore the problem. You used the word "projection" - are you implying that I don't have the wits to realize that the Bernie Bros are a serious issue for the DNC?

I'm not making an implication - I'm making a statement.

The problem isn't "Bernie Bros" - it's this frothing-at-the-mouth uncontrolable rage. Who am I talking about? Bernie Bros or You? What's the difference at this point?

A "Real Problem" are the fucking Dump supporters who are forming militas and training to gun us down. But here you think a small bunch of kids trolling you on the internet is a "real problem". >_<

This is EXACTLY what Republicans/Russians wanted - people in the DNC at eachothers throats instead of facing the REAL problem.

So tell me, how does insulting them convince them to change their positions? They're not flat-out-racists like Dump Supporters. They just have information from a biased point of view, but they aren't immoral like Dump Supporters. They're not cheering on the misery of other sects of people. So, why the heck are you treating them like one?

Tell me, does a so-called "Bernie Bros" insulting you, belitting you, and calling you names change your opinion and open your mind to what they see? Then how the hell do you expect them to?

Better still, if you think it's fruitless - than what's the point of letting the internet trolls get under your skin to convert you into one of them? eh?

[starlord]

no one should expect bernie bros to change- they've only gotten worse in four years.

calling out the spreading of disinformation is not "trolling" just because who's doing it happens to not be a trump supporter.

for that matter if your concern is "russians", their main goal was to undermine the validity of our democratic institutions - who're the ones constantly trying to undermine the dem candidate elections?
the "everything is a conspiracy against bernie" crowd are doing their best to aid in the goal of making elections seem illegitimate.

[derpkitteh]

A "Real Problem" are the fucking Dump supporters who are forming militas and training to gun us down.

those LARPing swine aren't gonna do anything. they're nothing but cowards that'll roll over the second master tells them to. you can take that to the bank. the US is a land of privileged, domesticated cattle. i say this as an american.

but anyway, it seems like buttigieg could win in new hampshire. i can see the appeal, he does seem somewhat likable honestly. i have no problem other than snickering every time i hear his surname. how unfortunate, to be born gay and have a surname that sounds like "booty judge".

[mvaliz]

those LARPing swine aren't gonna do anything.

They've HAVE done things... ALOT of things - mail bombs, shootings, people being busted for stockpiling munitions for some mass shooting plan, ect. There's like a White Supremacist getting busted every other week at this point for planning crazy shit. It doesn't make the mass headlines because we've got currently Election Fish to fry.

The FBI, in fact, have just recently this week elevated the Domestic White Supremacist terrorist threat level to be equal to that of ISIS.

Oh, trust me, they'll do something. Will it be a Civil War like Kolkums bitches about? Hells no... but there will be a very sad week of mass slaughterings by dumbasses who were spoonfed decades of pure fear.

[cubby]

I'm not making an implication - I'm making a statement.

The problem isn't "Bernie Bros" - it's this frothing-at-the-mouth uncontrolable rage. Who am I talking about? Bernie Bros or You? What's the difference at this point?

No. The problem is the Bernie Bros. How they express themselves and their points is secondary.

A "Real Problem" are the fucking Dump supporters who are forming militas and training to gun us down. But here you think a small bunch of kids trolling you on the internet is a "real problem". >_<

This is EXACTLY what Republicans/Russians wanted - people in the DNC at eachothers throats instead of facing the REAL problem.

Since we can't tell the difference between the R/R's and the B/B's (man that worked out well) we have to address the arguments in a coherent matter every time they are brought up. Can't ignore them, otherwise they fester, and grow.

So tell me, how does insulting them convince them to change their positions? They're not flat-out-racists like Dump Supporters. They just have information from a biased point of view, but they aren't immoral like Dump Supporters. They're not cheering on the misery of other sects of people. So, why the heck are you treating them like one?

Because they are walking down a road that involves a LOT of willful ignorance. Their reasoning for being and backing B/B's is essentially intellectually bankrupt. Not based on facts or logic. No other DNC's backers are acting this way.

Tell me, does a so-called "Bernie Bros" insulting you, belitting you, and calling you names change your opinion and open your mind to what they see? Then how the hell do you expect them to?

Better still, if you think it's fruitless - than what's the point of letting the internet trolls get under your skin to convert you into one of them? eh?

For some, they are beyond hope, no longer listening to reasoning or facts. But again, their statements can't go unanswered. Otherwise that's all people will hear.

[mvaliz]

For some, they are beyond hope, no longer listening to reasoning or facts. But again, their statements can't go unanswered. Otherwise that's all people will hear.

And by you frothing-at-the-mouth instead of engaging at an intelectual level is helping to convince more people of exactly what you DON'T want.

Again, when somebody insults you - does that open your mind? Does that make you see reason? Or does that make you double-down further on your ideals? And, lets be honest, you're not fighting them. You're just insulting them at this point... there's no debate here. No combat. It's just animalistic rage - and that sure as spit convinces nobody of what you believe in.

Also, if you really REALLY think that little of people are that gullible, after 4+ years of this nonsense to fall prey again to any "Bernie or Bust" shitposting again? That IMO it speaks more about the population if it's really worth saving then, doesn't it?

Want to know what really speaks more volumes to me? The deafening silence post-aquittal. No protests. Nothing organized. No marches... nada.

Now, the typical cynical jerk might think "Everyone gave up" - but I don't think so. I think there's more to that. I think people realized the futility of protesting, and they're instead focusing purely on election time.

[Sorshen]

Because they are walking down a road that involves a LOT of willful ignorance. Their reasoning for being and backing B/B's is essentially intellectually bankrupt. Not based on facts or logic. No other DNC's backers are acting this way.


For some, they are beyond hope, no longer listening to reasoning or facts. But again, their statements can't go unanswered. Otherwise that's all people will hear.

Ironic, you're engaging in that right now.

[cubby]

Ironic, you're engaging in that right now.

Please summarize my argument to demonstrate your point. We'll wait.

- - - Updated - - -

And by you frothing-at-the-mouth instead of engaging at an intelectual level is helping to convince more people of exactly what you DON'T want.

Again, when somebody insults you - does that open your mind? Does that make you see reason? Or does that make you double-down further on your ideals? And, lets be honest, you're not fighting them. You're just insulting them at this point... there's no debate here. No combat. It's just animalistic rage - and that sure as spit convinces nobody of what you believe in.

Also, if you really REALLY think that little of people are that gullible, after 4+ years of this nonsense to fall prey again to any "Bernie or Bust" shitposting again? That IMO it speaks more about the population if it's really worth saving then, doesn't it?

Want to know what really speaks more volumes to me? The deafening silence post-aquittal. No protests. Nothing organized. No marches... nada.

Now, the typical cynical jerk might think "Everyone gave up" - but I don't think so. I think there's more to that. I think people realized the futility of protesting, and they're instead focusing purely on election time.

I haven't been "frothing at the mouth" whatsoever. I've patiently, over and over again, explained my position and the faults of the opposition. I'm sorry you're seeing it that way, but what I'm doing isn't what you're describing, you're only seeing it in that light. Pointing out people's inconsistencies in their argumentation and reasoning is a cornerstone of good debate. Doing it with a little flair is just being letting off some steam.

People that gullible? I can't tell if you're kidding or not. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point in this aspect.

What do you mean re your post-aquittal point?

[Thelxi]

I'm not making an implication - I'm making a statement.

The problem isn't "Bernie Bros" - it's this frothing-at-the-mouth uncontrolable rage. Who am I talking about? Bernie Bros or You? What's the difference at this point?

A "Real Problem" are the fucking Dump supporters who are forming militas and training to gun us down. But here you think a small bunch of kids trolling you on the internet is a "real problem". >_<

This is EXACTLY what Republicans/Russians wanted - people in the DNC at eachothers throats instead of facing the REAL problem.

So tell me, how does insulting them convince them to change their positions? They're not flat-out-racists like Dump Supporters. They just have information from a biased point of view, but they aren't immoral like Dump Supporters. They're not cheering on the misery of other sects of people. So, why the heck are you treating them like one?

Tell me, does a so-called "Bernie Bros" insulting you, belitting you, and calling you names change your opinion and open your mind to what they see? Then how the hell do you expect them to?

Better still, if you think it's fruitless - than what's the point of letting the internet trolls get under your skin to convert you into one of them? eh?

In gaming terms you are the person that whines about whining. You can't be brandishing a Bernie pitchfork and then act surprised when other Democrats swat you down or insult your intelligence. It's what you are signing up for, so you better get thicker skin because this election is just getting started.

[Endus]

And by you frothing-at-the-mouth instead of engaging at an intelectual level is helping to convince more people of exactly what you DON'T want.

Nothing cubby has said is "frothing at the mouth".

Again, when somebody insults you - does that open your mind? Does that make you see reason? Or does that make you double-down further on your ideals? And, lets be honest, you're not fighting them. You're just insulting them at this point... there's no debate here. No combat. It's just animalistic rage - and that sure as spit convinces nobody of what you believe in.

Digging back through the past few posts, here's things cubby has actually said;

"The Bernie Bros phenomena is now a documented effect - your kind has people out there that would rather Trump win over another democrat that isn't your candidate. How you deal with that reality is your decision."
"Because they are walking down a road that involves a LOT of willful ignorance. Their reasoning for being and backing B/B's is essentially intellectually bankrupt. Not based on facts or logic. No other DNC's backers are acting this way."

These are arguments. You're reacting emotionally, and wanting that emotion to be given the same respect as an actual argument. And that's just not gonna happen. You're the one lashing out in anger, here, misconstruing cubby's posting.

Also, if you really REALLY think that little of people are that gullible, after 4+ years of this nonsense to fall prey again to any "Bernie or Bust" shitposting again? That IMO it speaks more about the population if it's really worth saving then, doesn't it?

We've literally had people say they wouldn't vote if Bernie doesn't get the nomination, on these forums, in the past couple months. It's not imaginary, no matter how much you don't like it.

Want to know what really speaks more volumes to me? The deafening silence post-aquittal. No protests. Nothing organized. No marches... nada.

Now, the typical cynical jerk might think "Everyone gave up" - but I don't think so. I think there's more to that. I think people realized the futility of protesting, and they're instead focusing purely on election time.

Who's gonna protest, and what?

If they're in a Democratic region, their rep already pushed impeachment through, and supported it in the Senate. You can't protest people doing what you wanted.

If they're in a Republican-dominated region, they're not gonna change anyone's minds with protests, and they know that, and they'd be putting their lives at risk given the rhetoric around all this. So again, protesting makes no sense.

I don't know why anyone would think a lack of protests says anything, in this moment.

[draynay]

And by you frothing-at-the-mouth instead of engaging at an intelectual level is helping to convince more people of exactly what you DON'T want.

Again, when somebody insults you - does that open your mind? Does that make you see reason? Or does that make you double-down further on your ideals? And, lets be honest, you're not fighting them. You're just insulting them at this point... there's no debate here. No combat. It's just animalistic rage - and that sure as spit convinces nobody of what you believe in.

I already tried making this argument and it clearly didn't work.