Could something be done to make people tank?

[Garymorilix]

Even the most skilled, best tanks in the games have to start somewhere

No shit.

But there is literally no excuse for not knowing routes for dungeons that are out for 1.5 year now.
Even if you never tanked before, all you have to do is literally copy the movement of a tank you saw last time you did the dungeon.

Being lazy af and being a newbie is two different things.

[Danbala]

I *LOVE* to tank and tank all the time and love getting hit in the face with all kinds of stuff and directing all the drama onto my bear butt.. but the number one thing I don't like to tank is the toxic community. Like despite having iron fur and all that stuff, it still hurts when someone screams "WELL IF YOU DON'T KNOW THE FIGHT, WHY'D YOU QUEUE??" or "THIS IS SOMETHING YOUR GUILD SHOULD HAVE TAUGHT YOU!!" Yea.. ok, my "guild" is just my bestie, her hubs, myself, and my hubs. The reason (I find) why there are no tanks or forever wait for tanks, is that people are freaking RUDE and it's too much of a hassle to do LFR and put up with people cursing you out or vote kicking you because you need to learn the fight.

I kind of wish there was a dummy version of LFR where people could go in and practice the fights with a team of NPCs before queing up with real people to play.

[Thelyron]

Have an automated system that instabans every non-tank that ever has aggro in any situation.

[melodramocracy]

I *LOVE* to tank and tank all the time and love getting hit in the face with all kinds of stuff and directing all the drama onto my bear butt.. but the number one thing I don't like to tank is the toxic community. Like despite having iron fur and all that stuff, it still hurts when someone screams "WELL IF YOU DON'T KNOW THE FIGHT, WHY'D YOU QUEUE??" or "THIS IS SOMETHING YOUR GUILD SHOULD HAVE TAUGHT YOU!!" Yea.. ok, my "guild" is just my bestie, her hubs, myself, and my hubs. The reason (I find) why there are no tanks or forever wait for tanks, is that people are freaking RUDE and it's too much of a hassle to do LFR and put up with people cursing you out or vote kicking you because you need to learn the fight.

I kind of wish there was a dummy version of LFR where people could go in and practice the fights with a team of NPCs before queing up with real people to play.

There’s no practical reason as a tank to even pay attention to the chat window as a tank unless you’re giving direction between pulls.

thats really all there is to it.

- - - Updated - - -

No shit.

But there is literally no excuse for not knowing routes for dungeons that are out for 1.5 year now.
Even if you never tanked before, all you have to do is literally copy the movement of a tank you saw last time you did the dungeon.

Being lazy af and being a newbie is two different things.

new players, people who took significant amounts of time off etc. If you deem your own free time to be more valuable than anyone elses (hint, it isnt) then pugging isnt for you.

[Kokolums]

I think the satchel system needs a complete overhaul for bonus rewards, while at the same time not penalizing DPS. .

This is correct. Blizz already has a system implemented to intice people to tank. It is called the bonus satchel system. The problem is the rewards are currently too weak. In Warlords of Draenor, you could get pets, mounts, and lots of gold from them. Now the pets and mounts have been removed from the satchel and the gold reward is paltry. Up the rewards and implment a satchel system for m+ and you fix everything. However, Blizzard seems intent on making Island Expeditions a success, so they slapped a ton of pets, mounts, and mogs in IEs to intice people over there instead. They couldn't fix the satchel system without damaging incentive to run IEs. So I think satchels are dead for now.

- - - Updated - - -

No shit.

But there is literally no excuse for not knowing routes for dungeons that are out for 1.5 year now.
Even if you never tanked before, all you have to do is literally copy the movement of a tank you saw last time you did the dungeon.

Being lazy af and being a newbie is two different things.

That's actually a lot of work. And people lose incentive to even learn when people get angrily demanding. Your attitude is why pugs are toxic.

[Revamp Man]

That's more or less what I was saying as well.

But here's the real question: Why is that actually a problem? Should all players be entitled to progress, even if they actually don't possess the skill to do so?

It's an interesting question, because on the one hand, in modern iterations of the game there are several mechanics that allow character power to continue to increase without ever facing challenging content. AP, Titanforged drops from WQs or LFR, catch-up mechanics, etc. That means that even if a player never increases their own skill at the game, their character will continue to progress in power.

But under a ranked system, they won't be denied access to content. They'll simply be limited in the progress to what their skill(or diligence at utilizing other avenues of power progression) allows them. They won't attain HIGH rank, but then again, neither does every player under the current dynamic run M+25 or mythic raids.






I think you need to expand on this. Because it's true that even under current conditions, the highest level of keys already requires specific group comp to fit the meta. Having a ranked system would not change this, and so it's not actually an argument or evidence against a ranked system.




Again, this already happens under RaiderIO. And unless a player always pays for a boosted run, their ranking will eventually even out to where they should be. While it's true they might receive a temporary boost to rank, I don't really view this as a significant barrier. It certainly wouldn't stop other players from also boosting, or non-boosted players from progressing. And I have serious doubts about the idea of anyone viewing non-boosted runs as a punishment.

Keeping in mind that any system of "ranked" groups is not a competition like with the old Vanilla PVP system, where only a finite amount of players can hold the highest ranks at any given time. But rather a system of scoring how good you are relative to the pool of available players in the matchmaking system. If a player feels they are being "punished" because they don't pay for boosted runs, they're entitled little shits that have an inflated sense of where they should be instead of where their own skill/gear actually places them.

Sorry, that just doesn't fly.





I'm struggling a bit with your sentence structure and typos. Are you trying to say that skill should determine ALL gear rewards?







I'm failing to see the connection.

If a player is stuck in low-ranked groups, it's because that's what their skill/gear determines. They would either need to get better at the game, or spend more time gearing up through other avenues than the ranked system. Why is this a problem? It goes back to what I defined earlier: Silver Proving grounds is a static, hard lock on progress. A ranked system is dynamic and a system to sort players into content difficulty they can actually handle.

You're still confusing the silver proving grounds with what a ranked system would actually do. The proving grounds specifically denied access to heroics. A ranked system would not do that. It would simply place players in the level of difficulty that was appropriate to their skill/gear. Unless you mean to suggest that players of any skill or gear should be entitled to progress without actually doing any work to improve their gear or skill? That makes no sense.

The silver proving grounds only caused the effect that Preach described because of the overall environment of WoD, which did not have the multiple avenues of character progression that more modern expansions have. Even if proving ground locks were implemented in BfA right now, it would not create the same effect because players would eventually overpower the proving grounds with AP, essences, TF gear, or corruption gear.






I already answered this back at the beginning. The benefits are eliminating the elitism and entitlement of the current RaiderIO community.

Players create groups with completely unrealistic requirements far beyond what their own gear or accomplishments warrant. A ranked matchmaking system controlled by the game itself removes the influence of the players, and would result in more fair groups...very likely also returning more Tanks to the pool of random players in PUGs(which is what started this entire discussion).

If you could just pop yourself into the matchmaking queue knowing that you would be grouped with 4 other players at your own level of skill, with a very good chance of also being free of entitled bullshit or unrealistic expectations.....wouldn't you want that instead of what you get right now?









That explains the weird typos and sentence structure!

And this is the kind of discussion I wish I could have more of on these forums. Actually talking about the subject without people getting angry or insulting. It's great!

I believe that gear in the current world of Warcraft should be an indicator of skill because that is how the game it’s self is structured and while I agree the player base in the current kind of player made ranking system is complete garbage the blame partially falls on blizzard

I believe that gear in the current world of Warcraft should be an indicator of skill because that is how the game itself is structured and while I agree the player base in the current kind of player made ranking system is complete garbage the blame partially falls on blizzard

For example let’s go back to the system that had titan forging available so just last patch you could have a player who never did a single mythic dungeon end up with an item level possibly on par with normal to her Roeck raid in fact I know this is possible because my Rogue character had an item level of 421 despite never doing anything above a mythic zero and never doing heroic warfront

So if a player is playing this game for gear rewards which is a majority of the player base the game tells you that in order for you to get an upgrade you should do heroic raids or mid-level mythic plus And thus you will get someone like myself or worse brand new player who does not see the point in doing a plus one or +2 but would instead see the only possible upgrade option outside of rating being to do a +5 dungeon that they would go into that dungeon and it would go one of two ways

And thus you will get someone like myself or worse a brand new player who does not see the point in doing a plus one or +2 but would instead see the only possible upgrade option outside of rating being to do a +5 dungeon bus they would go into that dungeon and it would go one of two ways

They die constantly thus being a burden on the group and possibly getting yelled at the taking away the idea that dungeons are extremely elitist and players are terrible while not understanding that the game did not properly prepare them for that content

Or it could turn out that they never get invited to this content because of the fan made or player made rank system that we currently have

So you would have a character that according to the system blizzard had in place since everything is judged by the item level of your character should be doing harder content and should have access to it and since they are driven by rewards they see no reason to work their way up similar to a ranking system they could easily decide to just quit trying and thus much like the players who never completed A silver proving ground just sit there and wallow at the bottom





Now personally while I do see the possibility of an in game ranking system removing some elitism from matchmaking and the mythic dungeon community there are also some negatives which the game already experiences


Let’s say that I am boosting my characters rank so I am working my way up and I get to level eight in the dungeons I show up for the random dungeon and as a Malay I end up in a dungeon that favors range which means the run will be slightly more difficult but not impossible however another player does not see it that way and would rather quit the group immediately though it would lower his rank but he would be able to try for a higher rank this is already done in player versus player arena

Another aspect would be as I said before the player getting boosted through the ranks yes his ranking would eventually even out but while he is in that higher rank him being there could negatively affect other players

You can implement an in game ranking system you can give the players tools to improve the overall feel of the system you can give the players anything they need to make the system easier and eliminate the negative community perception of liters him but players will not do that it has been shown time and time again

You can implement an in game ranking system you can give the players tools to improve the overall feel of the system you can give the players anything they need to make the system easier and eliminate the negative community perception of liters him but players will not do that it has been shown time and time again

We have had players making red groups requiring the killer chief meant a day after the raid released we have had players make dungeon groups requiring a score of 1500 the day after the season starts these players will not change their mindset because a ranking system is implemented if anything these players will have access to more people and thus they will have a negative affect on them

They will not stop being idiots these people who require a high dungeon score to run low level dungeons will not disappear instead they will keep their attitude and only be running the mid level dungeons that they are meant for but they will still complain about a player being the wrong class a tank being too slow or a healer being too useless they will leave groups immediately suffer the rank loss suffer the 30 minute debuff and the attitude will not change instead in a way it will be forced on other players

For example right now if I want to do a level seven dungeon and I see three groups with idiotic standards I just ignore those groups because nine times out of 10 the people that run them are looking for a carry or will make the run unenjoyable and I have access to choose who I play with but in the ranking system I might get matched with those people I will not have choice and I get that the unranked system is for that but you’re still forcing interaction with these Bad players and the only real fix for that would to be add a player rating system which would then just end up being abused so some players would get blacklisted from the system just because they did not play like other players wanted them to

The ranking system works in matching players with similar skill levels but the situation that the ranking system would be implemented to fix is not a skill issue but an attitude issue

[Itori]

make tanking fun, give abilities that combo with each other. I main a Dark Knight on FFXIV and during boss fights i have a good time using my shields, and buffs while pulling off an actual rotation, even the AOE's combo and fill a bar to be spent on either shields or more powerful aoe.

[SirCowdog]

I believe that gear in the current world of Warcraft should be an indicator of skill because that is how the game it’s self is structured.

For example let’s go back to the system that had titan forging available so just last patch you could have a player who never did a single mythic dungeon end up with an item level possibly on par with normal to her Roeck raid in fact I know this is possible because my Rogue character had an item level of 421 despite never doing anything above a mythic zero and never doing heroic warfront

So if a player is playing this game for gear rewards which is a majority of the player base the game tells you that in order for you to get an upgrade you should do heroic raids or mid-level mythic plus And thus you will get someone like myself or worse brand new player who does not see the point in doing a plus one or +2 but would instead see the only possible upgrade option outside of rating being to do a +5 dungeon that they would go into that dungeon

Actually...that's not solely how the game is structured. In large part you have a mixture of different systems of gearing, as I literally just outlined in my previous post. There are steady increases in power, such as with AP or Corruption resistance. But there is also a large random factor due to the nature of loot drops. You might get lucky and have the perfectly rolled piece of gear drop, or you might get nothing. Completing higher-level content increases your chances of getting higher iLVL gear, but there's no guarantee.

And up until 8.3, Titanforging could literally give a player gear much higher iLVL than what the content they cleared actually warranted. And before that, in Legion, you had legendary drops which could, and did, drop from something as easy as an emissary quest, but could boost character power to ridiculous degrees. We see this reflected in certain Corrupted traits, such as Infinite Stars.

This, I believe, creates a similar effect to what you described. And there's definitely some conflicting and confusing messages being sent here:

1) ILVL is supposed to be king. And yet, depending on the nature of the corrupted trait, certain equipment might be more powerful despite being lower iLVL. This is a problem that has consistently popped up across expansions.

2) Players being rewarded with gear that is far more powerful than the content they're clearing actually warrants. This is an effect created by Titanforging, or traits like Infinite Stars.

To me this says that iLVL is a poor measure of what content a person should actually be engaging with. And this is exactly why the community comes up with alternative measures for ability such as RaiderIO. They need a more accurate estimate of what a player is actually capable of, because gear is so easy to obtain.

and it would go one of two ways:

They die constantly thus being a burden on the group and possibly getting yelled at the taking away the idea that dungeons are extremely elitist and players are terrible while not understanding that the game did not properly prepare them for that content

Or it could turn out that they never get invited to this content because of the fan made or player made rank system that we currently have

So you would have a character that according to the system blizzard had in place since everything is judged by the item level of your character should be doing harder content and should have access to it and since they are driven by rewards they see no reason to work their way up similar to a ranking system they could easily decide to just quit trying and thus much like the players who never completed A silver proving ground just sit there and wallow at the bottom

No amount of gear, or possibility of gear, is going to motivate a lazy player to get better at the game. There's a misconception that having iLVL to access content is the same as being entitled to clear it. This is not the case, even in today's WoW.

However, I agree that the reward system of giving higher iLVL gear for clearing higher level content is a bit borked. But at the same time, as I mentioned before, there are other systems of character progress to mitigate that. In BfA it's corruption resistance and AP. In Shadowlands it sounds like it will be Anima and Covenants.

Let’s say that I am boosting my characters rank so I am working my way up and I get to level eight in the dungeons I show up for the random dungeon and as a Malay I end up in a dungeon that favors range which means the run will be slightly more difficult but not impossible however another player does not see it that way and would rather quit the group immediately though it would lower his rank but he would be able to try for a higher rank this is already done in player versus player arena

I would have to assume that any player who prematurely leaves a group would receive a more stiff penalty to their ranking in order to encourage players to stick it out. But even so, another player leaving would not severely impact your own rating, similar to how if other people leave run, you don't receive a deserter debuff.

Another aspect would be as I said before the player getting boosted through the ranks yes his ranking would eventually even out but while he is in that higher rank him being there could negatively affect other players

I would have to assume that whatever drop in rank you might get from occasionally being matched with a lower-skilled boosted player would even out exactly the same way the boosted player's higher score would. Sure, you might take a slight hit if a run fails(although I wonder how often that would really happen when everyone else in the group is at the difficulty they're supposed to be at). But over the longer term your rank would recover while playing with non-booster players.

You can implement an in game ranking system you can give the players tools to improve the overall feel of the system you can give the players anything they need to make the system easier and eliminate the negative community perception of liters him but players will not do that it has been shown time and time again

We have had players making red groups requiring the killer chief meant a day after the raid released we have had players make dungeon groups requiring a score of 1500 the day after the season starts these players will not change their mindset because a ranking system is implemented if anything these players will have access to more people and thus they will have a negative affect on them

They will not stop being idiots these people who require a high dungeon score to run low level dungeons will not disappear instead they will keep their attitude and only be running the mid level dungeons that they are meant for but they will still complain about a player being the wrong class a tank being too slow or a healer being too useless they will leave groups immediately suffer the rank loss suffer the 30 minute debuff and the attitude will not change instead in a way it will be forced on other players

The ranking system works in matching players with similar skill levels but the situation that the ranking system would be implemented to fix is not a skill issue but an attitude issue

[/quote]

I have to disagree with this entirely. Primarily because a ranked matchmaking system will heavily punish players who repeatedly leave groups. Because it's a matchmaking system, players will not be able to decide who they team with. Those who are persistent and do the run with whoever they're matched with will see their rank rise. Those who attempt to abuse the system and maintain an elitist attitude will never rise, and thus never have access to the rewards of higher ranked runs outside of their own pre-made, non-ranked groups.

In short, those with poor attitudes will get exactly what they deserve: Shitty groups. Those with good attitudes will get better groups.

I don't see this as a bad thing at all.

[La]

No shit.

But there is literally no excuse for not knowing routes for dungeons that are out for 1.5 year now.
Even if you never tanked before, all you have to do is literally copy the movement of a tank you saw last time you did the dungeon.

Being lazy af and being a newbie is two different things.

Except it isn't that easy, and especially is not so for a newer tank. It's just easy to *you* because you already know these things, so you act like anyone who doesn't is an idiot and they can learn it in an hour. Not to mention what you can and can't pull changes based on the affixes and the level you're even doing, as well as the gear you or even other people have.

There is excuses for it. It's just not super difficult to browse and find a quick easy guide for the general route you should try to take. But guess what? That's still ample more time and effort you as a new tank have to put in as opposed to any healer or DPS, who "after 1.5 years" probably can do these routes blindfolded and never had to look up fuck all.

[Marrilaife]

I believe that gear in the current world of Warcraft should be an indicator of skill because that is how the game itself is structured and while I agree the player base in the current kind of player made ranking system is complete garbage the blame partially falls on blizzard

For example let’s go back to the system that had titan forging available so just last patch you could have a player who never did a single mythic dungeon end up with an item level possibly on par with normal to her Roeck raid in fact I know this is possible because my Rogue character had an item level of 421 despite never doing anything above a mythic zero and never doing heroic warfront

So if a player is playing this game for gear rewards which is a majority of the player base the game tells you that in order for you to get an upgrade you should do heroic raids or mid-level mythic plus And thus you will get someone like myself or worse brand new player who does not see the point in doing a plus one or +2 but would instead see the only possible upgrade option outside of rating being to do a +5 dungeon that they would go into that dungeon and it would go one of two ways

And thus you will get someone like myself or worse a brand new player who does not see the point in doing a plus one or +2 but would instead see the only possible upgrade option outside of rating being to do a +5 dungeon bus they would go into that dungeon and it would go one of two ways

They die constantly thus being a burden on the group and possibly getting yelled at the taking away the idea that dungeons are extremely elitist and players are terrible while not understanding that the game did not properly prepare them for that content

Or it could turn out that they never get invited to this content because of the fan made or player made rank system that we currently have

So you would have a character that according to the system blizzard had in place since everything is judged by the item level of your character should be doing harder content and should have access to it and since they are driven by rewards they see no reason to work their way up similar to a ranking system they could easily decide to just quit trying and thus much like the players who never completed A silver proving ground just sit there and wallow at the bottom

The issue is there's a big portion of playerbase who wants to constantly get rewarded for just subbing and spending time in the game without having to group or improve as a player. So Blizzard in order to keep them subbed started this system where there are literal gear handouts, not just "catch up gear", gear that often beats lfr or even normal raiding rewards. It's toned down a bit now, but things like benthic gear meant you could have a player close to heroic raid ilvl but with a skill of a badly programmed bot.

Wow has big problem with reward structure. Should people be rewarded more for content that requires more skill? Or just one that is a bigger timesink? Should the progression path be clear, you pick your game, pvp, raiding, m+ and progress there, or should everything be intertwined? And if it's interconnected, how do you know that player who has the "ilvl" but got it from different content knows how to do the content you want to invite him for? There are very few players who are versatile and equally skilled in all forms of endgame. Meanwhile a lot of players are semi decent in what they focus on, but awful in other forms of content.

There's also this problem that gear is used as both gatekeeper ("must have this ilvl to enter") and as a reward, and for many players it's the most important part of reward structure, more important than ap, essences, cosmetics, achievements and whatever else. We have people who pay hefty money to get boosted just to obtain gear they're never gonna use, just parade in cities, and then when next gear arrives, buy another round of boosts. We have literally people who pay the sub for a game and then pay a fee so they can skip playing the game.

How is it related to tank shortage?

Well, from what I noticed among super skilled players, averagely skilled players and even below averagely skilled players, there's still decent spread between dps, tank and heal. But in the pile of players that are completely useless, the level of "badly programmed bot", vast majority of them are dps. That creates #1 overabundance of dps in queues #2 bad experiences for people who are stuck with these players in a group, because despite these players are very low skilled, they're often entitled, rude, unwilling to learn and improve, and generally make the life a living hell especially for tanks and healers. They're the players who think they "deserve" stuff just by being subbed, and recent wow design only strengthens that belief. They will often have enough ilvl to actually mingle with the crowd and get into groups.

This creates 2 ripple effects: #1 more tanks and healers only stick to their friends / guildies and refuse to pug, or swap to dps when pugging because they cba with bad treatment when crap dps can get away with 10x worse play, #2 development of "elitist" websites and addons that are meant to separate the chaff from the wheat, they're all inaccurate but not as inaccurate as ilvl became now.

Blizzard doesn't want to give people in-game tools to for example blacklist players (ignore list has limited spots, doesn't ignore the character when you log to alts etc.), or to measure their performance without resorting to addons and 3rd party websites. But they create content where your performance is very reliant on your prior experience (memorizing patterns of boss mechanics, layouts, etc. and practicing it ad nauseam), and content where a mistake of a single player doesn't impact just him but the whole group. Raiding especially mythic has became an exercise in synchronised swimming if we want to compare it to any "sport".

What's even worse, there's no good place for people to learn and practice without facing all the scrutiny for a failure. Levelling dungeons became completely disrespected and you're supposed to zoom zoom speed run through them, tanks should mass pull, keep aggro and not die. Which tbh can be more stressful than actually tanking a dungeon that is deemed "dangerous" so you'd pull more carefully and less stuff at once.

[Garymorilix]

Except it isn't that easy, and especially is not so for a newer tank. It's just easy to *you* because you already know these things, so you act like anyone who doesn't is an idiot and they can learn it in an hour. Not to mention what you can and can't pull changes based on the affixes and the level you're even doing, as well as the gear you or even other people have.

There is excuses for it. It's just not super difficult to browse and find a quick easy guide for the general route you should try to take. But guess what? That's still ample more time and effort you as a new tank have to put in as opposed to any healer or DPS, who "after 1.5 years" probably can do these routes blindfolded and never had to look up fuck all.

What do you mean it's easy for me? You think I was born with the knowledge?
I learnt what I'm talking about. If I can learn it, anyone can. Especially now when most routes are the "common" strategies anyways. Like going for Rezan in Atal and then to Vol'kaal and so on. That was never set it stone by Blizz but people have been doing it since 8.0

If someone is so unwilling to learn there is no helping it. You can learn all this stuff in 2 weeks max doing only 10's. After that every dungeon is the same.

[Albert1]

I like tanking, but I don't do it very much. I don't know the optimal tanking routes in most BfA dungeons. Tanking is stressfull, being blamed for people dying when they are in a hyper gogogo mode, keep pulling extra and then die to AoE or something isn't fun, so I'd rather just not do it. As a tank you need to know all the tactics as you tend to be the defacto leader of any group you're in, you're the one expected to deal with all mechanics. That's fine sometimes, I like dealing with mechanics, but still.

[javierdsv]

Give them directions...

Seriously, if you ask around everyone says "it's hard cause I have to lead people and I don't know where to go and what to pull and if I pull something I shouldn't people yell at me when they die".

If the game would guide you on lower difficulties (normal) with arrows, sounds, shining glows, you name it, then people would learn their basics and would feel confident to try on new stuff.

Whether you like it or not, the game is almost a single player game right now, people just like to follow and press buttons, being a tank makes you a leader, and not everyone feels like leading when they are the first to get lost.

[callipygoustp]

Give them directions...

Seriously, if you ask around everyone says "it's hard cause I have to lead people and I don't know where to go and what to pull and if I pull something I shouldn't people yell at me when they die".

If the game would guide you on lower difficulties (normal) with arrows, sounds, shining glows, you name it, then people would learn their basics and would feel confident to try on new stuff.

Whether you like it or not, the game is almost a single player game right now, people just like to follow and press buttons, being a tank makes you a leader, and not everyone feels like leading when they are the first to get lost.

And yet many MANY posts in this very thread say otherwise.

[Zantos]

You can maximize your DPS without doing the same DPS as a DPS.

If a tank does the same damage as a DPS, there is no reason to play DPS.

I can tell you've never tanked. I've done both roles. There is still plenty of reason to play DPS instead of a tank. Don't have to worry about mitigation, taunt swaps, being ensured to die on a wipe, being yelled at for mess ups. ect. Tanks have a lot of responsibility. Allowing them to be effective as dps would just give them something to break the boredom.

Most people are dps because its easy and they don't want the added responsibility a tank has. That will never change. There have been times when a tank in a top end guild Could hit the same dps numbers as a dps. Heck, back in the day, a good druid tank could do a could amount of dps by changing to cat form during down times. So we already have a prove of concept for my suggestion that even if a tank gets to deal the same amount of damage, dps are not going to flock to that role.

[Zantos]

Already wrong. In fact, I tanked in Cataclysm, when Vengeance existed. It was fucking dumb. If we had the opportunity, and Vengeance worked that way, my entire raid group would have been tanks JUST for that reason. (We literally talked about this constantly because of how high our damage was.) Try again.

Don't have too. I've tanked since wrath. Ive been through multiple changes. Vengeance was Not that good. It didn't make tanking more appealing to dps. Maybe for your small group it did. Being an actual tank is work. Any raid group would know that even If tanks could do the same amount of damage, having everyone being in tank spec would not be viable. Less on demand burst and little aoe ability.

Again, we didn't see this huge shift from dps all flocking to tanking when we had the ability to deal equal damage. We wouldn't see it now either. That has been proven time and time again. The role requires far more work then most dps are willing to put in

[neik]

As the old goblin saying goes.. "I get no respect around here"

As a casual player I find too often with a loose cannons in my groups, so I simply don't play a tank. My goal is to have fun and relax in video games, so I stick with different games that mimics it.

[arandomuser]

id say make tanks more impactful damage wise, but then they are nerfing echooing voide to the ground..precisely because of that so i guess they just want tanking to be boring and monotonous

[Mokuna]

Give back power to tanks, tanks mitigation,cds and self sustain are a shadow of themselves, tanks have little to no tool against magic damage , turning tanks into a healing mechanic more than an actual role, relying on healing and externals where gameplay would have made it in the last expansions.

Tanks core damage is ridiculously low, only compensated by stupid strong passives that make up for 50 to 70% of your dps in the end, rendering what buttons you press virtually irrelevant.

Turn down the passive damage and healing and make tanks have active damage builds like in the past (breath of sindragosa, chi explosion/blackout combo, heart of the wild/feral affinity, fiery brand burst windows....), make mitigation and active self healing stronger and abilities hit harder, so gameplay is rewarded and there is an actual gap beetween a tank being able to play the game properly, and a tank pressing random buttons.

In short revert all the awful changes that turned tanks from actual interesting specs to mana sponges with little to no impact from gameplay.
Those changes aimed at making tanking easier to get new players into it, they didn't and in fact made the role so boring a lot of tanks quit and players aren't interested in playing them, while more engaging tank specs make people want to try out tanks or play tank alts, and make less skilled tanks want to improve seeing how better players can perform.

[Capultro]

If a tank does the same damage as a DPS, there is no reason to play DPS.

That is the question: that the solution is not to give more dps to the tanks, but to transform them into dps / support, and the heals into dps / heal.

they would be dps, with tools to tank or heal with their dps skills.
the dps would have the ability to make extra dps exclusive to them.

This is the only solution to the problem, I have been thinking about it for a long time, there is no other way, it is the only way to make your population rise like the foam.

I am playing with a priest discipline right now and, I am getting bored and overwhelmed a lot, because I also have warrior and mage and you can tell a lot the difference when doing things alone, going from tank or heal is a bore and a burden. .. I am already thinking of deleting it ... and on top of that I cannot transfigure wands, this is very badly done ... a little incentive of fun is necessary when doing a class, the mage has many ... and the paladin, and the rogue ... but the tanks and healers are superburned. Blizzard has to solve this, or it will be the end, there are fewer and fewer tanks and heals, and more dps (ejem couf couf DH couf couf.......).blizzard when he wants, he does well ...

In fact I wonder many times because I play with discipline instead of with DH, if DH is the best class of the game ....