[Spoilers] Shadowlands Prequel Novel "Shadows Rising" Due in July

[matrix123mko]

Crossroads new Horde Capital

That goblin for warchief.

[Super Dickmann]

It was a kingdom on the decline which just lost its head during BC and barely got back its main source of power at the end of the expansion. Since that point, they've been present on the front lines every expansion and each time their land is mentionned in a book, it is still filled with brainless undead monsters... At some point either Lor'themar should put its resources into restoring its kingdom or participate in wars in which they can upset the balance into their favor, plunder and loot!

To be fair to Bob, he did at least plunder the Isle of Thunder. Past that, the excuse that their kingdom was a mess justifies his caution, and it makes sense they wouldn't want to be flung into wars that, from Cataclysm on, they have no benefit in, that doesn't change their relationship with the Horde. Sylvanas and later Thrall and Garrosh carried them despite the Forsaken and orcs also having suffered heavy calamities, the Forsaken being the exact same one except with more undead and the orcs having to bear the brunt of the cost each time. That they expect the blood elves to contribute in return is to be expected, since an alliance can't be built on one-sided sentimentality alone.

[Skildar]

To be fair to Bob, he did at least plunder the Isle of Thunder. Past that, the excuse that their kingdom was a mess justifies his caution, and it makes sense they wouldn't want to be flung into wars that, from Cataclysm on, they have no benefit in, that doesn't change their relationship with the Horde. Sylvanas and later Thrall and Garrosh carried them despite the Forsaken and orcs also having suffered heavy calamities, the Forsaken being the exact same one except with more undead and the orcs having to bear the brunt of the cost each time. That they expect the blood elves to contribute in return is to be expected, since an alliance can't be built on one-sided sentimentality alone.

Almost every time the blood elves get involve they are shown as a group of BE. Whereas the rest of the horde forces are always displayed as a group of mixed races. So to me it really feels like the BE are taking a huge toll when participating in each expansion. We've never seen this for the darkspear or the taurens. And yet blood elves had to solo isle of thunder, auchindoun and suramar

[Wangming]

Almost every time the blood elves get involve they are shown as a group of BE. Whereas the rest of the horde forces are always displayed as a group of mixed races. So to me it really feels like the BE are taking a huge toll when participating in each expansion. We've never seen this for the darkspear or the taurens. And yet blood elves had to solo isle of thunder, auchindoun and suramar

Well There is small wonder Blood Elves and Forsaken always fly solo. They don't really fit the Horde. Before WoW, the Horde was Orcs, Trolls, Tauren, Goblins and Ogres. They fit together pretty well. The others are just there for faction balance. And frankly Pandaren don't fit anywhere. I like em, but they are neither Horde nor Alliance. The races of Pandaria should have their own faction. Pandaren, Jinyu, the Rajani Mogu...etc. If some of them were enemies before? All the better. It gives us some drama. Some internal conflict.

[MatadorMedia]

This is the exact plot to the initial storyline of BFA... there is an attempt on the Zandalari ruler's life and then some Loa dies. HELLO?! Not that the novels are in any way necessary, but my god at least have some plot points exploring the actual Shadowlands story to hype up the expansion. Or at the very least address the aftermath of the biggest baddest OLD GOD dying! The incompetence from Blizzard is just overwhelming sometimes.

[Skildar]

Well There is small wonder Blood Elves and Forsaken always fly solo. They don't really fit the Horde. Before WoW, the Horde was Orcs, Trolls, Tauren, Goblins and Ogres. They fit together pretty well. The others are just there for faction balance. And frankly Pandaren don't fit anywhere. I like em, but they are neither Horde nor Alliance. The races of Pandaria should have their own faction. Pandaren, Jinyu, the Rajani Mogu...etc. If some of them were enemies before? All the better. It gives us some drama. Some internal conflict.

This could be nicer fantasy that what we ended up with. I love my pandaren, and their starting scenario is really neat. But since 5.4 nothing happened to them. They had a big focus on phylosophy and the place of war etc... Then nothing following soo such a shame...

[Minikin]

I am so

GODDAMN

SICK

Of that sentence.

the horde is foever parked in the barrens, at the crossroads.

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Sylvanas did save them from getting wrecked. In fact, the only reason they're in the Horde at all is because Sylvanas vouched for them and helped secure their lands for them, since Thrall didn't believe they could pull their weight. Something he was right about, given that despite their Sunwell being back and the Forsaken bringing them out of the fire she still had to put an ultimatum to them to have them stand on their own feet or get wrecked by zombies before they actually put troops up against Arthas, the guy in the process of taking over the world at the time. This despite the fact that when Sylvanas was in need and reached out to them back when she first took over the Forsaken they told her to go fuck herself.

As for her disdain for the tauren, while she did think Baine was a treacherous hippie, she didn't actively strive to fuck them over any more than she tried to fuck over anyone else. Hell, even when it went into active rebellion she didn't gas their sorry asses, as welcome as it'd be.

i dont disagree with that. i was just pointing out to the other guy that people dilute blood elves by always having a "some compliment about blood elves BUT sylvanas saved them" being thrown in but at the same time forgetting that the situation was mirrored elsewhere with Tauren and she cant even stand them due to their "gentleness".

[allawyn]

I am so

GODDAMN

SICK

Of that sentence.

You are holding on to hope that the Blizzard can have a real plot for the Horde. Let it go. Evil Horde is the only plot Blizzard has for them.

[Wangming]

This could be nicer fantasy that what we ended up with. I love my pandaren, and their starting scenario is really neat. But since 5.4 nothing happened to them. They had a big focus on phylosophy and the place of war etc... Then nothing following soo such a shame...

Which is a shame, cause they could have had a very compelling story post MoP. For instance, they don't have a central government, to show them the way. Pandaren fight in pointless wars, sometimes on both sides of the conflict. How do they cope with this? And since their entire culture centered around dealing with the Sha, how do the go forward, now that the sha were finally, truly vanquished?

Instead, we have fuck all. Yes, sometimes Taran Zhu or Taoshi show up to kick ass, but otherwise nothing. Chen Stormstout, Hero of the Horde spends most of his time being a silly meme. Pandaren DK are a thing now, yet Gravewalker Gie is nowhere to be seen. I know that not everyone is a dirty weeb like me, but there is so many untapped potential in Pandaria. Like the Pearl of Pandaria, which was left hanging. If I would have made Legion, I would have turned the Pearl into one of the Pillars of Creation.

[Easo]

when peace is achieved by murdering your own troops how you call it?

Something something it weeds out the weaklings thus leaving the strong to flourish or something edgy like that.
But yes, Blizzard truly seems incapable of moving away from the same old stale formula. Oh I just imagined Ion's smug face as he asspulls another fakshun kofliktt, the horror.

[Varodoc]

Something something it weeds out the weaklings thus leaving the strong to flourish or something edgy like that.
But yes, Blizzard truly seems incapable of moving away from the same old stale formula. Oh I just imagined Ion's smug face as he asspulls another fakshun kofliktt, the horror.

Another faction conflict, you say?

Literally any Alliance city: Ah shit, here we go again.

[Mehrunes]

He is annoying, but this isn't just about him, Alleria, Sylvanas, Nathanos, Turalyon, Sira, Anduin, I just don't care about any of them, Unfortunately they seem to be the main characters, meaning for me it is like cardboard boxes talking to each other and to top it all of the novel is most likely riddled with consistency errors. I am really tempted not to read it at all.

That's some heavy heresy. If you do not repent in time Blizzard will "grace" us with Sadorc Saga 2: The Sad Troll.

[Wangming]

That's some heavy heresy. If you do not repent in time Blizzard will "grace" us with Sadorc Saga 2: The Sad Troll.

Don't worry. When all is lost, he will be told by Anduin what the Horde really means. Because of course the Horde has to define itself based on what some twerp in the opposite faction says.

[Mehrunes]

Before the storm, ch 12:
"But her disdain for the tauren’s gentleness did not eclipse her need of them." And no shes not specifically talking about Baine in that one sentence, otherwise it wouldnt end with them.

Even putting aside how Sylvanas' disdain for anything that she held to herself is still not her being a bitch to the Tauren, Sylvanas feeling disdain to a specific trait of the Tauren doesn't even constitute her feeling disdain to the Tauren as a whole. Besides, to loop back to where this tangent originated, it's not like all the Tauren begged Thrall for the admission of the Forsaken. It was Hamuul alone.

So not only was your claim that Sylvanas was a bitch to the Tauren flat out wrong, not only was your post-goalpost movement claim that she held disdain for the Tauren also wrong, but neither of those things actually support your initial point on how Sylvanas' treatment of the Tauren makes her a hypocrite for "calling in her chit" with the Blood Elves. Because any debt she may have had would be to Hamuul, not the Tauren as a whole. As such, her opinions about the Tauren as a whole or even her being a bitch to the Tauren (had such a situation actually taken place) would be completely inconsequential to the topic of that debt.

And then you add things like how her "calling in a chit" was her merely informing Lor'themar of the consequences of Thrall's call to Horde members to war against the Lich King that she was in Quel'Thalas to relay in the first place and which Lor'themar openly planned to disregard right in front of her. Even though refusing Horde's call to war would put Lor'themar in open violation of his obligations to the Horde.

As such the Horde, Forsaken included, wouldn't be obligated to aid him with his domestic issues in turn. Especially since they were busy with the Lich King and holding a hefty garrison in Tranquillien deprived the Forsaken of valuable troops to be used elsewhere. All Sylvanas did was inform him of the natural consequences of his planned course of action.

So continuing the trend of your claims being flat out wrong, Sylvanas didn't want special treatment from Lor'themar for her "one help" (that, again, by his own admission was crucial in securing the survival of Quel'Thalas and without which they would have lost half their kingdom even a year after their admission to the Horde and after finally dealing with such threats like the Amani or Dark'Khan). She wanted him to uphold his obligations in light of being called to war.

You know who actually wanted special treatment there? Lor'themar. He wanted to eat his cake and have it too, where Horde soldiers would stay on their asses in Quel'Thalas for an eternity and die for his cause while he was unwilling to lift a finger to help them back when asked to. And it was him being hypocritical there because he made the excuses of how much the Blood Elves had suffered as if the Blood Elves were some unique special snowflakes in that regard and the Forsaken had things handed to them on a silver platter and walked on rose petals, with Tranquillien garrison being nothing more than Sylvanas' whim because she just couldn't figure out what to do with all the spare soldiers she had laying around.

Finally, looping all the way back to @Kyphael's post that eventually led to this entire tangent, the aid the Forsaken gave to the Blood Elves isn't comparable to what the "Tauren" gave to the Forsaken. Because contrary to their post the Forsaken wouldn't actually have been wiped out by the Alliance and the Scarlet Crusade. Varimathras' campaign against the Scarlets was successful. And the Scarlets weren't in as much a threat as they were a fungus on a wall. I.e. something you could deal with for a time but then it would miraculously regrow.

And Alliance had very little presence in Lordaeron at the time. Stormwind was busy with Varian's disappearance. The Dwarves were still divided at the time. The biggest Alliance group in the neighborhood of the Forsaken were the Stormpikes and they were already locked in a fight with the Frostwolves. Sylvanas joining the Horde was caused by the same thing that motivated every decision of hers prior to Cata - getting back at the Lich King. Not because she was about to be overthrown by a bunch of pumpkin farmers.

as for the blood elf thing, what you said is what i mean. people might hate them might like them but their automatic reaction wouldnt be "ewww kill it with fire" with the forsaken though...that third option does come into play cuz lets be real, they zombies.

Except for the part where it isn't. Alliance invading Quel'Thalas isn't even remotely close to a mere "no" as an answer to the Blood Elves being interested in rejoining the Alliance.

i dont disagree with that. i was just pointing out to the other guy that people dilute blood elves by always having a "some compliment about blood elves BUT sylvanas saved them" being thrown in but at the same time forgetting that the situation was mirrored elsewhere with Tauren and she cant even stand them due to their "gentleness".

Except for the part where some extremely loose and remote parallels that miss a whole Titanic-load of details do not meet the criteria of two situations being mirrored in each other.

[Easo]

Another faction conflict, you say?

Literally any Alliance city: Ah shit, here we go again.

Then Alliance retaliates, Blizzard tries to write some bad thing Alliance does to "balance it", which Horde fans (the crazy ones) repeat until their lips bleed.
And, in the end - status quo, because of course half of playerbase cannot be said to "lose". Neverending cycle.

[Mehrunes]

Talk to all the Horde fans who think the faction should be defined solely by mass murdering Alliance. Hell, witness the posts in this very thread whining that peace is somehow the same as slavery.

Yeah, no. Being led by a bunch of sniveling and spineless Alliance boot lickers that amount to nothing more than polyps on Anduin's rectum would be slavery. Peace with Alliance is just meaningless because sooner or later another Broken Shore will happen, Alliance will jump to their usual idiotic and illogical conclusions that allow them to stroke that hate boner for the Horde and another Genn will cause another Stormheim only for Anduin to wash his hands because he's all talk when it comes to peace.

When it comes to punishing Alliance members violating that beloved peace of his it's time to do absolutely nothing. Because Anduin's idea of peace is a world where unhinged Alliance loons can attack the Horde with complete impunity and the Horde not wanting to bend over to that is a travesty. Because, looping back to his ass polyps in the Horde, any Horde member that doesn't submit to a life beneath the boot of the Alliance is deemed "well and truly lost" by him and his holy bones.

[Specialka]

Yeah, no. Being led by a bunch of sniveling and spineless Alliance boot lickers that amount to nothing more than polyps on Anduin's rectum would be slavery. Peace with Alliance is just meaningless because sooner or later another Broken Shore will happen, Alliance will jump to their usual idiotic and illogical conclusions that allow them to stroke that hate boner for the Horde and another Genn will cause another Stormheim only for Anduin to wash his hands because he's all talk when it comes to peace.

When it comes to punishing Alliance members violating that beloved peace of his it's time to do absolutely nothing. Because Anduin's idea of peace is a world where unhinged Alliance loons can attack the Horde with complete impunity and the Horde not wanting to bend over to that is a travesty. Because, looping back to his ass polyps in the Horde, any Horde member that doesn't submit to a life beneath the boot of the Alliance is deemed "well and truly lost" by him and his holy bones.

Because the horde never gave reasons to the Alliance to doubt them?

[omeomorfismo]

Something something it weeds out the weaklings thus leaving the strong to flourish or something edgy like that.
But yes, Blizzard truly seems incapable of moving away from the same old stale formula. Oh I just imagined Ion's smug face as he asspulls another fakshun kofliktt, the horror.

so your point is that baine should be a proud forsaken?

[Stardrift]

This book is gonna have a lot more lore and depth than the story Shadowlands will shit out. Just like Before the Storm and BFA.

[Minikin]

Even putting aside how Sylvanas' disdain for anything that she held to herself is still not her being a bitch to the Tauren, Sylvanas feeling disdain to a specific trait of the Tauren doesn't even constitute her feeling disdain to the Tauren as a whole.

putting aside why? you asked me where shes disdainful. I pointed out a verbatim quote from the book. this doesn't need a thesis and I really dont need to do more than what I was aiming to anyway (just as i didnt read the rest of the whole post because it had nothing to do with what i said). Unless you want to say that its not printed in the book? Btw she points out in two separate chapters how shed rather the tauren just leave the horde or how they are not similar to her at all.

Except for the part where it isn't. Alliance invading Quel'Thalas isn't even remotely close to a mere "no" as an answer to the Blood Elves being interested in rejoining the Alliance.

My point is that no faction ever approached the forsaken to join them in the history of the forsaken. The alliance executed their messengers and the horde treated them with broomsticks instead of swords.

Yea the alliance is dumb as rocks and sabotaged its blood elf relation by itself without the blood elves ever doing much for it until the Divine bell incident where it got fuzzy. But at least Varian tried to work with them and they had been allies before. Because people can relate to healthy living people. People cant relate to undead monstrosities that are trying to kill you to resupply their stock of index fingers.

edit: @Zaganite pointed out that the forsaken were approached by the alliance in BtS, i had forgotten.

Except for the part where some extremely loose and remote parallels that miss a whole Titanic-load of details do not meet the criteria of two situations being mirrored in each other.

Really Mehrunes? Take a look at the quality of conversation about these boards. More than half the people are worried that the alliance doesnt get enough spotlight in the book all the while forgetting that Alleria and co have been mentioned BY NAME in the premise. Do you really think this audience requires a deeper argument with details? Nah my optimism on that ran out a while ago, only short burst responses are enough lol.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, no. Being led by a bunch of sniveling and spineless Alliance boot lickers that amount to nothing more than polyps on Anduin's rectum would be slavery. Peace with Alliance is just meaningless because sooner or later another Broken Shore will happen, Alliance will jump to their usual idiotic and illogical conclusions that allow them to stroke that hate boner for the Horde and another Genn will cause another Stormheim only for Anduin to wash his hands because he's all talk when it comes to peace.

When it comes to punishing Alliance members violating that beloved peace of his it's time to do absolutely nothing. Because Anduin's idea of peace is a world where unhinged Alliance loons can attack the Horde with complete impunity and the Horde not wanting to bend over to that is a travesty. Because, looping back to his ass polyps in the Horde, any Horde member that doesn't submit to a life beneath the boot of the Alliance is deemed "well and truly lost" by him and his holy bones.

well im sure horde is getting in line to offer reparations for the stuff it did BEFORE stormhiem happened. Also I dont get the broken shore thing, what did the horde do wrong there that was against the alliance.