What would have happend if Terenas decided to outright kill the orcs?

[Varodoc]

Legion hardly care about cities they're after worlds. They distinctly are not the legions best creation. Half those cities were justified from just being at war.

- - - Updated - - -



The horde sacked like 1 alliance city in the first three wars. Hardly half. The scourge did qat more damage

Stormwind wasn't sacked but utterly destroyed and most of its people butchered. After that, the Horde waged war for several years, ravaging many cities and coming close to conquering Lordaeron, which would've meant defeat for the Alliance.

[Thage]

Ultimately the Legion would've managed to invade regardless, because they always do. Without the orcs, trolls, and tauren at Twilight of the Gods, Archimonde would almost certainly be victorious, and the world would burn.

Maybe. Keep in mind that without the Horde resurgent, the Alliance forces that followed Jaina (including at least one brigade each from Stormwind, Gilneas, Stromgarde, and Alterac) wouldn't have been crippled by Grom's rampage early in the Kalimdor theatre; moreover, the Alliance wouldn't have suffered further losses trying to fend the Horde off in other missions, and without the orcs clearcutting Ashenvale immediately setting the night elves against them, the Sentinels would be at full fighting strength, including Cenarius's aid.

Jaina alone would likely have had a better chance of establishing a coalition with the night elves early on given her penchant for diplomacy, and without Grom's rampage through Ashenvale, neither the Alliance forces or Sentinels would have had costly diversions dealing with his fuckery in general. So with both the Alliance forces that landed on Kalimdor and the Sentinels at full strength (without either having had to deal with losses incurred by dealing with the Warsong in particular), they still may have been able to hold Archimonde off long enough.

Where the main problem comes to play is later, after the Battle for Mt. Hyjal, as the Horde's additional troops proved invaluable in other theatres (namely the Might of Kalimdor, Blackrock Mountain, and Naxxramas, and later, the Outland and Northrend campaigns, at which point the Horde started to become a liability again as two Warchiefs went mad with power).

[Newname1234567890]

Stormwind wasn't sacked but utterly destroyed and most of its people butchered. After that, the Horde waged war for several years, ravaging many cities and coming close to conquering Lordaeron, which would've meant defeat for the Alliance.

They leveled stormwind true but they never actually got to sack Lordeaon, Silvermoon or Ironforge. Gilneas city and borlas were never targeted. The Scourge did far more damage to the Alliance in the third war then the Horde ever did (from first war to third war). The Horde only ever actively destroyed one allaince kingdom an only one of seven human kingdoms. Scourge got three?

Who destroyed Stormgarde?

[Thage]

They leveled stormwind true but they never actually got to sack Lordeaon, Silvermoon or Ironforge. Gilneas city and borlas were never targeted. The Scourge did far more damage to the Alliance in the third war then the Horde ever did (up to the third war).

Who destroyed Stormgarde?

Stromgarde kind of stands out here, because it wasn't destroyed so much as between Thoras's death (sometime between the Second and Third War) and the breakdown of the Alliance-Horde coalition four years after Hyjal, Galen's ineptitude as a leader caused its decay as a kingdom, to the point that Syndicate bandits, Horde outposts, and ogre clans had their run of the Highlands and even the lion's share of Stromgarde's capital city, with what's left of Stromgarde's forces confined to the keep and a small refugee camp. At least, that's what I've been able to dig up about it.

edit: Taking WC3 into account, it seems like Stromgarde sent the lion's share of their standing army with Jaina to Kalimdor, only for it to be wiped out as the Horde was forced to pull Grom's ass out of the fire (and in the process, wiped out the various non-Lordaeronian brigades sent to support Jaina and the Lordaeron survivors). So with most of their army gone, Stromgarde didn't have the manpower to hold off the ogres, Syndicate, and Horde once the Horde began using the Undercity as a base of operations in the Eastern Kingdoms.

[Newname1234567890]

Stromgarde kind of stands out here, because it wasn't destroyed so much as between Thoras's death (sometime between the Second and Third War) and the breakdown of the Alliance-Horde coalition four years after Hyjal, Galen's ineptitude as a leader caused its decay as a kingdom, to the point that Syndicate bandits, Horde outposts, and ogre clans had their run of the Highlands and even the lion's share of Stromgarde's capital city, with what's left of Stromgarde's forces confined to the keep and a small refugee camp. At least, that's what I've been able to dig up about it.

Oh that actually really sad :/

I maybe confusing it with alterac tbh.

[Varodoc]

They leveled stormwind true but they never actually got to sack Lordeaon, Silvermoon or Ironforge. Gilneas city and borlas were never targeted. The Scourge did far more damage to the Alliance in the third war then the Horde ever did (from first war to third war). The Horde only ever actively destroyed one allaince kingdom an only one of seven human kingdoms. Scourge got three?

Who destroyed Stormgarde?

The fact that they "only" destroyed Stormwind (one of the largest cities in the world) doesn't change the fact that for years they ravaged the world and waged a war across many nations. Yes they did also damage Kul Tiras, so much so that there are skeletons of the Second War near Boralus itself. Also Daelin tells Jaina that she did not remember what the orcs did to their homeland. They also invaded all other major Alliance cities (except for Gilneas, that was left unscathed by the Scourge as well) and devastated Quel'thalas and Ironforge (with the latter only having one settlement left -- Ironforge itself, everything else was gone).

Stormwind was destroyed by ogres and Syndicate bandits -- both of which were there due to the Second War. The ogres were allied with the orcs and helped them wage war, the Syndicate was established after Alterac's fall.

[Newname1234567890]

The fact that they "only" destroyed Stormwind (one of the largest cities in the world) doesn't change the fact that for years they ravaged the world and waged a war across many nations. Yes they did also damage Kul Tiras, so much so that there are skeletons of the Second War near Boralus itself. Also Daelin tells Jaina that she did not remember what the orcs did to their homeland. They also invaded all other major Alliance cities (except for Gilneas, that was left unscathed by the Scourge as well) and devastated Quel'thalas and Ironforge (with the latter only having one settlement left -- Ironforge itself, everything else was gone).

Stormwind was destroyed by ogres and Syndicate bandits -- both of which were there due to the Second War. The ogres were allied with the orcs and helped them wage war, the Syndicate was established after Alterac's fall.

I never knew the Horde got to Kul Tiras!!! I thought that basically during the second war the Allaince just dominated naval stuff (expect for the one time with the dragons). Nice to see they did a naval invasion.

I didnt know they got that far into Quel'Thalas i thought the magical Elf shield stopped them.

[Thage]

I never knew the Horde got to Kul Tiras!!! I thought that basically during the second war the Allaince just dominated naval stuff (expect for the one time with the dragons). Nice to see they did a naval invasion.

I didnt know they got that far into Quel'Thalas i thought the magical Elf shield stopped them.

The Horde's activity in Quel'thalas was mostly their Amani allies, but yeah, the Horde put a hurting on the high elves--if memory serves, Terenas's choice to intern the orcs was a major influencing factor in the high elves pulling most of their support for the Alliance, until dispatching a token force to help Arthas investigate the Plague of Undeath and, later, Kael'thas personally taking his elite troops to help reclaim Dalaran's ruins (until Garithos kept throwing him to the wolves and that situation rapidly spiraled out of control).

[Aurabolt]

...Ah, the joy of theorycrafting if past events played out differently ^_^


First, it's worth noting the following events are directly and indirectly impacted by the Orcs' Internment:

• The Cult of the Damned spreading the Plague: Lordaeron focused on the Orcs' Rebellion and this provided a nice cover for Kel'Thuzad to get plague-infected grain into Lordaeron.
• Thrall trained by Humans: Thrall was a bit of an oddball early on because he was basically raised by humans. After he escapes Internment, he learns of his roots and leads Orcs + Darkspear Trolls to Kalimdor where they hook up with the Tauren.
• Citizens of Lordaeron heavily taxed to pay for Internment Camps: The years of extra taxation to fund the Internment Camps helped breed discontent toward the government and the Orcs overall. Kel'Thuzad took the opportunity to recruit people into the Cult of the Damned.
• The Orcs who were not interred stayed out of sight: We know The Frostwolf Clan were prettymuch in hiding since the end of WC1. More so after the events of WC2.
• The Alliance got complacent after the events of WC2: After the Orcs lost their will to continue fighting, the Alliance was more focused on keeping them contained and away from Human settlements. They never considered the possability to prepare for another threat on the horizon and instead focused on the Orcs in captivity until it was too late.
• Arthas chases after Mal'Ganis to Northrend: After The Culling of Stratholme, Arthas travels to Northrend where he finds Frostmourne and becomes a Death Knight.
• Tauren aided by Thrall: After Thrall leads the Orcs to Kalimdor, he meets up with Cairne and helps him drive away the Centaur threatening their people. After The Third War, they form the New Horde.
• Kul Tiras follows the Orcs to Kalimdor: The Kul Tiran Navy led by Daelin Proudmoore follows the Orcs to Kalimdor. Aided by Jaina Proudmoore, the Orcs prevail and slay Daelin. Kul Tiras leaves the Alliance due to this incident.
• Grom Hellscream kills Cenarius: Grom accepts Mannoroth's Blood (again) and kills Cenarius. Cenarius' death set back the Night Elves and especially the Druids, setting the stage for them to sacrifice Nodrassil and their immorality to kill Archimonde.

Now, let's get into how all of these events would have been impacted if the Alliance decided to exterminate the Orcs either after they surrendered or over time:

• Cult of the Damned spreads the Plague sooner: Thanks to Kel'Thuzad's short story, it's fair to presume a few years pass between his first encounter with Ner'Zul and the start of WC3. If the Alliance decide to wipe out the Orcs, Ner'Zul gives the order for the Plague to be spread ASAP to sow fear and confusion.
• Thrall eventually turns on the Alliance: Presumably, The Alliance would train a few Orcs to run interference within the Horde and among them would be Thrall. Upon realizing nothing he does will mean a thing longterm, he turns on the Alliance and joins with the others in a battle for their very survival.
• Human Population Thrives without Taxation: Without the extra taxes levied to fund the Internment Camps, morale among the general population would be higher. The Cult of the Damned would also have a much harder time recruiting people.
• The Orcs who were not interred switch to Guerilla Warfare: Thanks to WoD we have hard confirmation the Frostwolf Clan would thrive in a snowy region like Alterac. Upon learning the Alliance plans to wipe out all Orcs, they would ghost and switch to Guerilla tactics, forcing the Alliance to fight a long and drawn out war on their terms.
• The Alliance becomes more vigilant after the events of WC2: The Alliance fans out to hunt down Orcs and any who might sympathize and try to hide them. This makes it very difficult for the Cult of the Damned to operate out in the open so they resort to more covert movements.
• Tauren pushed to extinction, aided by the Night Elves: Without the timely arrival of Thrall and the Orcs, the Tauren are pushed to the brink of extinction. Left with no other choice, Cairne asks Hamuul Runetotem to petition aid from the Night Elves. Not wanting to see the Tauren encroach on their lands, the Night Elves reluctantly agree to aid the Tauren who are now fewer in number and less of a threat to them militarily because of their thinned numbers. After dealing with the Centaur, the Tauren formally enter a non-aggression treaty with the Night Elves.
• Arthas, Muradin and Jaina lead the refugees to Kalimdor: Uther sends word to King Terenas, who rushes to Straholme. He arrives after Mal'Ganis escapes and though he is horrified by his son's decision, he realizes his actions bought time for an evacuation. He orders Arthas and Jaina take as many of their people as possible across the sea while he stays behind with Uther to contain the Plague. Muradin Bronzebeard decides to join them as a representative of Ironforge.
• Kul Tiras pivotal in helping refugees from Lordaeron flee to Kalimdor: King Terenas calls on the Kul Tiran Navy to lend Lordaeron ships and crew to evacuate as many people as possible. Ships make landfall on the coast of Duskwallow Marsh, Tanaris, Durotar and The Barrens.
• Cenarius present to help the Night Elves: Without the Orcs, Cenarius is able to devote himself to helping the Night Elves deal with the Legion head on. He also urges Tyrande and Illidan who is revived to free Illidan for the fight to come.
• Night Elves and Tauren ally with Lordaeron Refugees to face The Legion: Arthas is named Regent Lord of the new Lordaeronian Colonies on Kalimdor. He meets with Tyrande and Cairne where they agree to work together to stop the Legion.

The Orcs ended up being an important part of Azeroth winning The Third War. Without them, there's no chance in hell the Night Elves would have been able to overcome the Legion on their own. Granted, it would have been much harder for The Cult of the Damned to spread the Plague in Lordaeron. Harder but not impossible. Factoring the alternate chain of events above, Lordaeron would likely be quarantined and sealed off to keep the Plague from spreading any further.

As for the Orcs who survive extermination. The Frostwolf Clan hunkers down in Alterac for the long haul. Thrall manages to commandeer some ships moored at Southshore but instead of sailing for Kalimdor, he leads the Orcs between the Thandol Span between Arathi Highlands and the Wetlands. They land on at The Badlands but send ships north to the Hinterlands to gather lumber to build some settlements. The Blackrock Clan, which had been cut off from Lordaeron by Ironforge provides additional supplies and weapons. Not long afterward, they learn of the Plague of Undeath spreading in Lordaeron and Quel'Thalas to the north.

Arthas was a key part of Ner'zul's plan but given he goes in the opposite direction, it would be fair to assume Ner'zul would have had another person or two in mind. Kael'Thas' jealousy of Arthas could be exploited to get him to betray his own people since The Sunwell was needed to summon Archimonde. It would actually make things easier for the Cult of the Damned to wipe out Quel'Danas, then cut through Lordaeron while it's still trying to contain the Plague of Undeath. Some from Quel'Thalas do manage to escape led by Lorthe'mar Theron. King Anasterian remains behind to help with the evacuation though.

Meanwhile, Arthas oversees the contruction of several settlements on Kalimdor's Eastern shore. Settlements are built in Duskwallow Marsh, The Barrens and Tanaris. The Night Elves take notice but are not bothered by their presence since they keep to themselves. The Night Elves, who recently assisted the Tauren in driving away the Centaur who threatened to wipe them out have become tolerant of outsiders near their lands. Before long, trade between the Kaldorei and the Lordaeronian Colonies is established.

Word reaches Arthas the Sindorei were corrupted by the Plague and now threaten to wipe out the remnants of the Lordaeron Military still able to fight. He rushes back and manages to stop Kael'Thas at the gates of the castle. He takes up Frostmourne, not realizing he was the blade's originally intended owner. The Undead Campaign basically plays out normally minus Quel'Thalas, which is already fallen. King Terenas, King Anasterian and Uther barely manage to flee to Kalimdor before Arthas can kill them with the help of Jaina and Daelin Proudmoore.

Meanwhile, Thrall and Grom realize it's only a matter of time before Ironforge and Stormwind take notice of their presence due to their frequent incursions into The Hinterlands and the Searing Gorge. They build larger ships and then set sail down the eastern coast of the continent and discover Booty Bay. Here, they learn of the recent happenings in Lordaeron and on Kalimdor. Thrall sees an opportunity to be had on Kalimdor for their people. They travel across the sea and land to Gadgetstan where they first learn of the Human colonies to the north.

Grom is intrigued to see no human colonies are in Durotar and though the land is a wasteland, their people could make a home for themselves there. Thrall reluctantly agrees but would like a second settlement on the western shore of the continent. Grom decides to take most of their strongest warriors to Durotar while Thrall travels to Desolace. While traveling through Stonetalon Mountain and The Barrens, Thrall meets Cairne and helps him drive off some Quilboar. The two become friends and Cairne personally guides Thrall to Durotar where they learn of the Legion. They arrive at Hyjal in time to help the Night Elves and Humans at the last minute.


After Archimonde is dealt with Terenas meets with Tyrande, Malfurion, Illidan, Thrall, Grom, Daelin, Muradin, Magni, Anasterian, Lorthe'mar, Cenarius and Cairne to discuss the situation in Lordaeron and how to deal with things. Illidan, Lorthe'mar, Grom and Muradin decide to travel to Northrend and this sets off the race to the Frozen Throne. Different people are involved but the same outcome in which Arthas becomes the new Lich King. Only difference being Terenas, Anasterian, Grom, Uther and Cenarius are all still alive.


...Whew.

I think I covered everything major. Basically, everything still happens but certain outcomes are clearly different. Lordaeron and Quel'Thalas both still fall but the casualties are nowhere near as high in the alternate timeline.

[Newname1234567890]

The Horde's activity in Quel'thalas was mostly their Amani allies, but yeah, the Horde put a hurting on the high elves--if memory serves, Terenas's choice to intern the orcs was a major influencing factor in the high elves pulling most of their support for the Alliance, until dispatching a token force to help Arthas investigate the Plague of Undeath and, later, Kael'thas personally taking his elite troops to help reclaim Dalaran's ruins (until Garithos kept throwing him to the wolves and that situation rapidly spiraled out of control).

Considering how long the High/blood elfs lived the recent Faction changes must be ever ever jarring.

The Horde really did fuck over the Amani :/ the amani are one of the most understandable villain groups

[Varodoc]

I never knew the Horde got to Kul Tiras!!! I thought that basically during the second war the Allaince just dominated naval stuff (expect for the one time with the dragons). Nice to see they did a naval invasion.

I didnt know they got that far into Quel'Thalas i thought the magical Elf shield stopped them.

The magical shield (Ban'dinoriel) only protected Silvermoon, the rest of the kingdom was mostly burned.

[Newname1234567890]

The magical shield (Ban'dinoriel) only protected Silvermoon, the rest of the kingdom was mostly burned.

Ah i thought it atleast covered all of eversong since the rune stones sit on its borders with ghostlands. Well fait enough horde did way more damage then i thought they did!

[Thage]

Considering how long the High/blood elfs lived the recent Faction changes must be ever ever jarring.

The Horde really did fuck over the Amani :/ the amani are one of the most understandable villain groups

I think it's less jarring than it would have been before the Scourging of Quel'Thalas. Culturally, there's a notable shift in how the high and blood elves behave after that compared to beforehand, when they took a long-term view on things. The current state of blood elf culture is a good indication of what happens when a long-lived race decides to live in the moment after three major culture shocks within a couple decades (the Horde's razing, the Scourging, and joining the Horde would all be major culture shocks to the average citizen).

The Amani are a good foil for the Darkspears: the Amani went from one of the few remaining troll superpowers to a broken remnant which now exists as guests of the Zandalari for the sake of preserving the tribe's bloodline and heritage, because they couldn't let go of old glories and grudges (the blood elves joining the Horde prompting Zul'jin to formally withdraw as he did). Meanwhile, the Darkspears, while holding to old traditions, opted to look forward to the future and have generally flourished, despite rough patches late in Garrosh's reign and after Vol'jin's death at the Broken Shore. Even the Zandalari have had to admit the tribe's progress from the punching bags of Stranglethorn to one of the only remaining tribes of any noteworthy presence on the global stage.

- - - Updated - - -

Ah i thought it atleast covered all of eversong since the rune stones sit on its borders with ghostlands. Well fait enough horde did way more damage then i thought they did!

Well, remember that the Ghostlands were part of Quel'thalas before the Scourge overran it. The main reason the blood elves haven't revitalized it the way they did Eversong is because they're only barely holding onto it with Forsaken support, at least as of the most recent update on the matter from In the Shadow of the Sun. The fact that Sylvanas held it over Lor'themar's head suggests the situation was tenuous even after the player makes huge amounts of headway in securing the Ghostlands.

[Newname1234567890]

I think it's less jarring than it would have been before the Scourging of Quel'Thalas. Culturally, there's a notable shift in how the high and blood elves behave after that compared to beforehand, when they took a long-term view on things. The current state of blood elf culture is a good indication of what happens when a long-lived race decides to live in the moment after three major culture shocks within a couple decades (the Horde's razing, the Scourging, and joining the Horde would all be major culture shocks to the average citizen).

The Amani are a good foil for the Darkspears: the Amani went from one of the few remaining troll superpowers to a broken remnant which now exists as guests of the Zandalari for the sake of preserving the tribe's bloodline and heritage, because they couldn't let go of old glories and grudges (the blood elves joining the Horde prompting Zul'jin to formally withdraw as he did). Meanwhile, the Darkspears, while holding to old traditions, opted to look forward to the future and have generally flourished, despite rough patches late in Garrosh's reign and after Vol'jin's death at the Broken Shore. Even the Zandalari have had to admit the tribe's progress from the punching bags of Stranglethorn to one of the only remaining tribes of any noteworthy presence on the global stage.

My first Warcraft game was wow (was gonna grab reforged but glad i didn't) so i never saw high elf culture beyond they being vagabonds. Should look more into them to see how they changed.

I do like the idea that one day all the troll tribes would join the Horde. No more divisions among trolls, unified again like in the days of the Empire of Zul.

[sam86]

we already have an official answer for that from wow, either u like it or not fact is without Orcs azeroth would fell to Legion as bronze dragonflight saw that timeline already
As for why, probably because without war the alliance would be too weak to fight the incoming BL

I'm not sure what u trying to do here, this is like ignore Garrosh entire reign and claim it isn't official, this IS official lore, a tiny part that is backstory for TBC escape from durnhole and black morass dungeons, but is official lore

And official lore says without orcs the humans would fought and mass slaughtered each others that they will be too weak to fight the invading BL and nelf alone would be f8cked and Azeroth already fell in that timeline and conquered and is over

- - - Updated - - -

My first Warcraft game was wow (was gonna grab reforged but glad i didn't) so i never saw high elf culture beyond they being vagabonds. Should look more into them to see how they changed.

I do like the idea that one day all the troll tribes would join the Horde. No more divisions among trolls, unified again like in the days of the Empire of Zul.

u never played wc3 ? then grab reforge
wc3 is AMAZING, reforge is sh8t, but it is sh8t for someone like me, who played over 1502 hour a day on wc3, but for a new player, the game would be great

[tromage2]

Without the Orcs then now you would either have the old gods rule the world or the Legion destroyed everything.

[Newname1234567890]

u never played wc3 ? then grab reforge
wc3 is AMAZING, reforge is sh8t, but it is sh8t for someone like me, who played over 1502 hour a day on wc3, but for a new player, the game would be great

Fair next payday ill give it a look

[Thage]

Fair next payday ill give it a look

Just remember that a good bit of WC3's lore has been somewhat awkwardly retconned over time. If you can find PDFs online, Arthas: Rise of the Lich King retells Warcraft 3 from Arthas and Sylvanas's points of view, with some detours to Jaina's POV as necessary for events Arthas wasn't present for. Ingame, if you do quests in Northrend, you'll get a lot of lore alluding to and updating Reign of Chaos's human and undead, and The Frozen Throne's undead and blood elf campaigns. Furthermore, if you make it to 50-60 in Classic and do the Western and Eastern Plaguelands quests, and do the Tirisfal, Hillsbrad, and Silverpine quests on a low-mid-level Horde character, you can find a lot of locations from Warcraft 3 with quests and ambient lore (books, NPC chatter, and, in Undercity, ambient sounds replaying bits from the RoC human cinematics).

[Newname1234567890]

Just remember that a good bit of WC3's lore has been somewhat awkwardly retconned over time. If you can find PDFs online, Arthas: Rise of the Lich King retells Warcraft 3 from Arthas and Sylvanas's points of view, with some detours to Jaina's POV as necessary for events Arthas wasn't present for. Ingame, if you do quests in Northrend, you'll get a lot of lore alluding to and updating Reign of Chaos's human and undead, and The Frozen Throne's undead and blood elf campaigns. Furthermore, if you make it to 50-60 in Classic and do the Western and Eastern Plaguelands quests, and do the Tirisfal, Hillsbrad, and Silverpine quests on a low-mid-level Horde character, you can find a lot of locations from Warcraft 3 with quests and ambient lore (books, NPC chatter, and, in Undercity, ambient sounds replaying bits from the RoC human cinematics).

I did jump into wow before tbc on my brother account and leveled a Forsaken. So im aware of the wc3 undead Campaign. Still be good to actually experience it.

I remember getting very excited when i first saw daralan in wotlk after circumventing the bubble so many times.

[Thage]

I did jump into wow before tbc on my brother account and leveled a Forsaken. So im aware of the wc3 undead Campaign. Still be good to actually experience it.

I remember getting very excited when i first saw daralan in wotlk after circumventing the bubble so many times.

One of my favorite activities is going around and finding things from the RTSes and books--for example, in Classic you can find a ruined caravan on the path to Grim Batol that's from one of the novels, Day of the Dragon. It's not a novel I like, but I love the caravan's existence because it showed an attention to detail that helps Azeroth feel like a living, breathing world even to this day, when the game isn't necessarily at its best.