Ny'alotha, The Waking City World First Race

[Outofmana]

So much pointless rage and discussion. As a neutral there was an insane difference in how pullls looked from Limit vs Method, they were simply the better guild this tier, what is there to discuss really, the difference between the 2 guilds was obvious, perfect individual play from them, a well oiled machine. Something Method seemed to do last time on Azshara with their 1 less healer setup, yet they were sloppy this time around.

Shadowlands will be great should both rosters stay mostly the same, although a 3rd guild in the mix at this point would be better as a spectator.

Last race was more interesting for a lot of people to follow imo because of all the classic hype that time around, entire desks of hourlong discussions around it during downtime on bosses, this race the Method stream felt short with people not having much to talk about it seemed. And the CoL stream just has way less rotation of casters/breaks than usual. Ended up tuning into Max's stream mostly, whereas last race the RB stream always had something interesting going on. Especially the UK banter nightshift, missed that a lot.

[Unforgivenn]

No they dont. By winning the latest race limit have shown themselves to be the best.

Holy goalpost moving batman!
EU players are having literal seizures trying to explain away limits win.
1. 16 hour head start
2. Method players in Limit
3. Limit having too many BoEs
4. People helping Limit
5. Max had to sell his car
6. Limit has to win more than one race
7. Blizzard showing favouritism to Limit
8. Trump

I wonder what will be next?

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Winning 8.3

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Because it would be interesting to know if Blizzards blatent help for method would have also helped limit. This revered change is obviously a stealth nerf to the boss.

9. Method wins because had less pulls than limit

[dacoolist]

I'm very happy with the performance of the top end raiders this time: it's an insane fight (although buggy), and they all performed at a high level.. as a scrubknight that's all we could ever ask for..

[arr0gance]

I think a lot of people think that pugging kills the raid scene because it means people don’t have to join guilds.

Here’s an alternate perspective:

For me, it’s pug or go home. No way I can join a guild and commit to a specific schedule. 0% chance. But I can pug and I find that fun.

My biggest frustration is that they don’t support pugging more. I wish there was a way to be more specific about the groups you set up in group finder, like

“Progression run, expecting to get 4/8, raiding from 8-11”

“Farm run, AOTC required, expecting full clear, raiding from 8-10”

If they really wanted to support pugging they would create a lot more options for group setup and it would be a much better environment- that’s what I’m in favor of. You could have small penalties for people who leave before the scheduled end time, options stating the expected progression, and also filters on progression that limits who can even apply instead of the raid leader having to analyze every app.

Right now you end up with these hugely mixed groups, and often in the middle bosses you fall into this trap:

1. You wipe, and 25% of the raid leaves because they think the group sucks.
2. You kill the boss, and 25% of the group leaves because they only joined to get a specific item.

Either way, it’s a terrible environment unless you luck into a mostly guild run, and I think it could be much better.

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He has a valid point that this is only one tier.

However... Method got beat bad. This felt more like the old guard finally running out of steam against the upstarts.

It reminds me of the Bulls Pistons rivalry from the late 80s. The Bulls lost to the Pistons in a bunch of close series, but then one year they just wrecked them and it was over.

There are factors here that make this situation potentially different, like Method’s ability to reload with younger hungrier players, but that’s why I see limit, not method, as the favorite going forward despite only one win.

To make your football analogy accurate you'd also have to factor in that Method had access to Limit's playbook the whole time and still lost. :-)

[durrtygoodz]

I think a lot of people think that pugging kills the raid scene because it means people don’t have to join guilds.

Here’s an alternate perspective:

For me, it’s pug or go home. No way I can join a guild and commit to a specific schedule. 0% chance. But I can pug and I find that fun.

My biggest frustration is that they don’t support pugging more. I wish there was a way to be more specific about the groups you set up in group finder, like

“Progression run, expecting to get 4/8, raiding from 8-11”

“Farm run, AOTC required, expecting full clear, raiding from 8-10”

If they really wanted to support pugging they would create a lot more options for group setup and it would be a much better environment- that’s what I’m in favor of. You could have small penalties for people who leave before the scheduled end time, options stating the expected progression, and also filters on progression that limits who can even apply instead of the raid leader having to analyze every app.

Right now you end up with these hugely mixed groups, and often in the middle bosses you fall into this trap:

1. You wipe, and 25% of the raid leaves because they think the group sucks.
2. You kill the boss, and 25% of the group leaves because they only joined to get a specific item.

Blizzard already pushed the game more towards PUGs, often to the detriment of the game. Flexible lockouts, seperation of heroic and mythic, cross realm, forced personal loot, it was all for you.

The issues you face is not with the game systems but rather with how people choose to play. There are all sorts of complex social reasons why pick-up groups will be inferior and game systems can't fix that. Trying to get "progression" raiding in a PUG goes against the nature of the PUG because progression is WoW is not done over the course of a one to four hour raid, it's done over a weekly reset, and then many more weekly resets that follow it over the patch cycle.

[Onikaroshi]

Don't pretend that Limit fans haven't done similar things.
I just marked some points with bold text. These arguments have been used against Method from the Limit fanboys as well. Plus the 40hr/week, 5week/year off and so on.

Tbf Europe does generally get more vacation. US vacation time sucks.

And I love when people say "they're college students! Plenty of free time!" I lived in a major college town for 3 years and, I don't know how it works in europe, but in the us most of those college kids are working on top of school.

[dacoolist]

Not to forget my favorite: "EU has unemployment benefits, so they could quit their jobs to play 24/7 and still keep their flats / be able to buy food"

I mean think about it.. wouldn't it be nice to be able to play WoW an extra 5 weeks a year without having to worry about anything else!? #EUlife lol

Legit; you ask your business/etc to take off even just TWO WEEKS a year off here in US and.. You may get fired

My jobs a bit nicer so we get more time off a year then that.. but Method takes off literally months at a time, I know they are the company aka method but it's like HOW MANY guilds have the power to just play wow only (aside from a few streamers maybe?)

[dacoolist]

Ok..so if that is true...nobody in the US ever goes on holidays?

I highly doubt that.

You may get basically a week where the company allows you to take that time off, but months at a time like EU.. highly doubtful youll have a job when you come back unless it's medical leave

[Onikaroshi]

Ok..so if that is true...nobody in the US ever goes on holidays?

I highly doubt that.

Gov't jobs have decent Vacation, but yea, 1 week vacations are extremely common around here.

I'm lucky and get 2 weeks paid, and whatever i really need unpaid, but I also set my own work hours.

[durrtygoodz]

You may get basically a week where the company allows you to take that time off, but months at a time like EU.. highly doubtful youll have a job when you come back unless it's medical leave

Months lmao. UK gets 28 days a year. Germany 24 days. France 30 days.

[Onikaroshi]

Months lmao. UK gets 28 days a year. Germany 24 days. France 30 days.

US gets 0 days, in a 5 day work week those are all over a month, so while months may be out of whack, you're almost at a month and half. Even more if you start going to 4 day.

US labor laws are very... anti work. Shit we don't even have required breaks, a company can refuse you breaks.

[dacoolist]

Months lmao. UK gets 28 days a year. Germany 24 days. France 30 days.

Not saying it's the same for everyone in EU, just saying that we get MUCH MUCH less here in US unless someones again, on leave for medical

[Onikaroshi]

Well, guess that sucks. While I am EU, I am also self-employed...not many holidays for me..unless I have no customer to do work for..in which I have free time..but ofc still sucks, because no money comes in.

As for "months at a time" - that is a misconception. Usually employed ppl in EU have six weeks holidays (sth like 1,5-3 days per month, depending how long you are with a company....chose when to take that during the year)

Months at a time can ofc happen when you are seriously ill...or take a sabbatical, but that comes with pay cuts / re-distribution.

Also it varies in different EU countries ofc

We actually have 0 mandated vacation days, hell we don't even have mandated paid maternal leave, forget about paternal, or mandated breaks. First world country that treats it's workers like slaves honestly.

Vacation days are "incentives for employment" and "rewards for time worked".

It's like they ignore everything that points to workers having vacation time actually leads to more productive workers.

[durrtygoodz]

Not saying it's the same for everyone in EU, just saying that we get MUCH MUCH less here in US unless someones again, on leave for medical

USA gets far less annual leave. But being disingenuous and saying people in EU countries get "months" off makes you look really stupid.

[thestreamm]

Limit will stream the kill on youtube in 1 minute guys!!!


youtube.com/watch?v=Kgzm2XP1hMo&feature=youtu.be

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its starting now

[grom11]

Cool yessss

[Ralahast]

US gets 0 days, in a 5 day work week those are all over a month, so while months may be out of whack, you're almost at a month and half. Even more if you start going to 4 day.

US labor laws are very... anti work. Shit we don't even have required breaks, a company can refuse you breaks.

While this is true - if your employer is not allowing you a meal break, you should unionize.

[ohlins]

Many US companies have two weeks, although the more recent trend is to have a flexible policy where you take what you think is fair (which sounds generous until you realize it means they don’t have to pay accrued vacation when you leave anymore).

Another important factor in my experience is that US companies don’t have regular work hours. It’s basically work until the job is done, and some days that’s 5:00, other days 8:00. My understanding from talking with Germans and other EU workers is that their schedules are much more regular.

I used to finish my job, had over 200 hours of overtime in a year. Since my employer thinks he can keep milking me, without providing solutions to the reason I have to work overtime, I pack my shit at the end of my day, done or not. If he chooses to fire me, which he can't since I fulfill my employment duties. I'll have a loads of other vacancies to choose from. And he'll be at the short end of it, since you can't buy experience.

Socialist safety net combined with a good economy means you don't have to work like a slave. I certainly ain't jealous of what I read about US employment...

[Fynzie]

Months lmao. UK gets 28 days a year. Germany 24 days. France 30 days.

France is 25 as the legal minimum.

[Onikaroshi]

While this is true - if your employer is not allowing you a meal break, you should unionize.

Most of the places that do that kind of thing already have high turnover rates, so any whiff of unions and they just can people (think restaurants mostly)