Could something be done to make people tank?

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Aren't the Proving Grounds scenario still a thing?


I've never done the healing or tanking ones but I would assume they are a good crash course. Perhaps they should expand the Proving Grounds to level 15 (when you are able to queue for LFG) and you need to complete it in order to further queue as a tank?

[Itisamuh]

As some others have said, I think the shortage has very little to do with damage or anything like that. It is simply the fact that the responsibility feels awful with random people. The way tanks are blamed for any wipe, are expected to know every single optimal route, are expected to move as quickly as possible, are expected to know every boss mechanic already, and so on. The know everything and rush mentality ruins dungeons and raids in general in my opinion, but tanks suffer the worst from it, with healers not far behind. Even if tanks did as much damage as damage dealers, which would be ridiculous, it would still be an unpopular role.

[Auxis]

The last time I liked tanking was back when it played more like DPS.

Prot Warriors and Bear Druids in Wrath, you could just go in all guns blazing and kick the teeth out of anything in your way, passively take no damage, and there wasn't a ton of involvement with defensive abilities besides some short CDs and your longer CDs.

When your core rotation was all offensive and mostly was just there to do damage, which was also supplemented by you often doing the most damage in the group, I think this is when tank was most fun because you were kind of the hero of the group. You just didn't have to constantly optimize stupid active mitigation, which nowadays doesn't serve to make you feel immortal as much as it makes you feel like paper without it.

Also, you didn't have to struggle for threat. You got threat? Good, you had it forever basically. You didn't have to work to keep yourself alive - that was the healer's job. You didn't have to worry about getting aggro after you got it - once you succeeded, you succeeded, and there wasn't any residual stress of losing it after the fact or having to work especially hard to keep it. All you got to do at that point was perfect your damage output, and maybe help conserve healer mana at critical points of fights by using those longer defensive abilities, but because it was so few and far between it wasn't this constant STRESS that you always had to juggle constantly every handful of seconds. Shorter cooldowns (like 30s Shield Block or 45s Enraged Regen, as opposed to using Ignore Pain every 3 or 6 seconds or something) was just so much better.

Tanks during this time did a crap ton of damage. But they were able to do that damage because they were attacked and getting rage or mana or runic power as a result of this. There was vengeance that helped with this too, but it had its own problems. But I like the check of tanks being able to do that crazy damage as a result of being attacked and so much of that damage reduction being passive so the tank didn't have to worry so much constantly and instead they could just focus on being as bad-ass as other damage-dealers in the raid.

See, I'm the opposite. The last time I did any serious tanking was in Wrath, tanked Trial of the Crusader (the raid one, pretty sure it's Crusader). People kept getting on my case about not doing enough dps while I'm tanking. Meanwhile I'm just wondering why a tank's duty should also include having to pull ok dps. My job should be to keep the bosses/adds under control, keep an eye on the encounter and adjust my mitigation/CDs appropriately.

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On topic: I haven't tanked recently because of PC problems. Had a recurring issue where my screen would - at random - go black then come back a second or 2 later completely fine. So, I was anxious about having a Tank/Healing role in-case the black screens happened.
I've been healing lately because I've got a new HDMI cable and haven't had the issue since, so I might get back into tanking. But I feel like I have more control over my group as a healer, so it might be harder for me to get into tanking.

[RobertoCarlos]

Well you need the community as a whole to not be dicks to tanks. One mistake or wrong pull and everyone loses thier shit.

Also blizz makes raids designed for two tanks. They could design raids with tanks in mind better

[Sammonoske]

By getting rid of the "go go go" mentality that Blizzard caters towards so much. As well as getting rid of Necrotic, because that alone causes a lot of players to not want to tank. Regardless of skill level.

[Piplupzero]

Tanks have the problem of basic maths. The endgame content is either raids which has 2 tanks total or pvp which has 0 tanks unless its a specific BG so theres just more DPS and healers needed for everything. The only real exception being mythic plus but so few people do those exclusivley and all the "good ones" you want are gonna get snapped up by groups because tanking (and healing) for PUGs is AWFUL. Just the worst experience you can have in a video game.

[matrix123mko]

Free azerite reforging wherever you want.

[Neklord]

Yes, remove tank mechanics and you'll see way more tanks. Most people don't tank because they don't know tank mechanics and they don't want to learn them. No one really cares about rotations, they just want to stay there and take the damage, probably using a cooldown when needed, but that's it. If you complain about tanks being boring then you're the problem, because the developers are listening to idiots like you and then no one wants to tank anymore.

[Soon-TM]

Well, removing completely unfun !@#$ like Necrotic or Grievous would be a good start.

[SirCowdog]

Already wrong. In fact, I tanked in Cataclysm, when Vengeance existed. It was fucking dumb. If we had the opportunity, and Vengeance worked that way, my entire raid group would have been tanks JUST for that reason. (We literally talked about this constantly because of how high our damage was.) Try again.

Perhaps if vengeance was based on a persons threat instead of damage taken? There has to be a way to make it work for the tank and offtank and not just everyone.

[Zantos]

Except only one person would be tanking still.

That's why we have to consider it. Tanks have only done equal DPS when they were tanking with Vengeance. Not when they weren't tanking. Take away the "You must be tanking" aspect and people WILL flock to Tanks - Because they won't be tanking despite being tanks, they'll be dpsing.

They won't queue as tanks.

They won't tank.

They'll be DPS as tanks. You don't GAIN tanks from it. You just gain fake tanks that are actually DPS. You're confusing the wheat for the chaff. The people who would switch from tanks gaining more DPS, won't be tanks - It will be DPS.

Im confusing nothing. You're missing that that is Not the only time it happened. Druids used to be able to push out ok dps by switching to cat form. There was a time prot paladins could hit high numbers with a single talent. Vengeance is not the only time this has been a thing. Saying that it is is just flat out wrong.

You won't get fake tanks in real raid groups. You'll just get them in LFR or dungeons, which already happens with dps queuing as tanks or healers to get in faster. The only thing that would change is, well, nothing. Just like in the past. Anyone in tank spec would be expected to be able to tank. Not to mention they probably wouldn't beat a pure dps during burn phases or in aoe due to a lack of tool kits, just like in the past.

So letting them do decent dps would be fine. It wouldn't make them better, or even on par with a pure dps. Even if theoretically, they could do equal base damage. They would still lack the tool kit and they would still be expected to be able to fulfill the role should the need arise.

Again, we have Literally seen this already. You're just mistakenly believe that the only time a tank could deal substantial dps was with vengeance, as the main tank. That is Not the case.

- - - Updated - - -

Aren't the Proving Grounds scenario still a thing?


I've never done the healing or tanking ones but I would assume they are a good crash course. Perhaps they should expand the Proving Grounds to level 15 (when you are able to queue for LFG) and you need to complete it in order to further queue as a tank?

They aren't any good at teaching any skills. BGs are actually the best teacher for healing hands down. If you can top the charts and survive, you're golden for raids. There really is no tutor for tanking. The proving grounds being a requirement was a thing. A dumb thing, but was there.

[Futhark]

Single-player scenarios that teach boss mechanics would create more tanks.

I'm not saying a solo dungeon. I mean something closer to the Trial of the White Tiger where a lower-level boss comes out, and you've got LuLu over there healing you, and they're like "Oh whenever you fight a stupid tree like this guy, you need to lead him into the rings of fire. You might need this info again someday HINT HINT" which is the same mechanic as a real boss in a dungeon/raid.

We just need something better than dungeon journals to educate the leader of the group, which always falls on the tank.

...and maybe a hearthstone-like 'squeltch'

[MysticsDK]

I've enjoyed playing my Blood DK for quite a while now. However, after losing 3 x 10k Coalescing Visions, I'm now playing mainly as Frost DK. I just can't do the damage output needed to solo the visions. I'm fine in a group as tank, but I feel they should have given tanks a +dmg bonus reduced by x no of players for the visions. Maybe they could reduce the timer a little for solo tanks?
I can't imagine how it is for solo healers.
Well played Blizz.
gg on W3 refunded btw.
Here's looking to the future and D4

[Marrilaife]

I've enjoyed playing my Blood DK for quite a while now. However, after losing 3 x 10k Coalescing Visions, I'm now playing mainly as Frost DK. I just can't do the damage output needed to solo the visions. I'm fine in a group as tank, but I feel they should have given tanks a +dmg bonus reduced by x no of players for the visions. Maybe they could reduce the timer a little for solo tanks?
I can't imagine how it is for solo healers.
Well played Blizz.

They just did this reset. -25% hp for mobs for solo tank, -40% hp for mobs for solo healer.

But I feel your struggle, my blood dk feels like hitting wet noodle style too. I feel like you need to get some damaging corruptions to be "viable" this patch. My main has a damaging corruption and it feels like night and day in comparison.

[Kalcifur]

I can think of a few things that might help.

Armor scaling needs to be reworked. Tanks should have a considerable advantage against mundane content, as dps armor values should be significantly reduced to gut their ability to gogogo cleave the world down without a tank friend. Reliance on other roles encourages group play in the more general daily content.

2 Tank busting mechanics like necrotic need to go. Tank challenges tied to things like threat, like skittish, are more conducive to mmorpgs and far more accurately indicate tank experience. It stands to reason that threat-centric abilities need to return, not just bigger damage but situationally influenced abilities. Example, protection warriors should regain mocking banner or some form of aoe taunt, dps warriors get intimidating shout as their equivalent ability which comes with a threat decrease on top of the fear.

3 From a design front there's no way to influence this, but we need to dispel the idea that the tank must lead the group. I think that in a raiding environment you naturally reach this conclusion anyway, but working through pug culture is hard, maybe even impossible. But it is important to always be the change ypu believe in, if you want more tanks, treat them well it really does make a difference.

[Tech614]

3 From a design front there's no way to influence this, but we need to dispel the idea that the tank must lead the group. I think that in a raiding environment you naturally reach this conclusion anyway, but working through pug culture is hard, maybe even impossible. But it is important to always be the change ypu believe in, if you want more tanks, treat them well it really does make a difference.

In a raid environment a tank absolutely does not need to lead and in fact is not in the best position with the best FoV to do so. In dungeons they absolutely should lead, as they have to control the pulling and pace of the dungeon. I think you have it reversed.

- - - Updated - - -

The tank rotation is boring.

Eh blatantly false depending on class. Wars, DH and Prot Paladin in particular have far more interesting rotations as tanks then their dps counterparts. Blood is ok, Brewmaster is clunky at times but so is WW, Gaurdian is the only tank rotation I would say is flat out boring and not on par with DPS specs.

Then again I see people ok with their tanks doing 13k dps so I wouldn't be surprised if you're one of those with a claim like this...

- - - Updated - - -

Well you need the community as a whole to not be dicks to tanks. One mistake or wrong pull and everyone loses thier shit.

Also blizz makes raids designed for two tanks. They could design raids with tanks in mind better

Problem with this is flex scaling, designing a 3 tank mechanic works for mythic and they have done this in the past but it flat out doesn't work for normal or heroic where you're supposed to be able to do them with as little as 10 people, can't have 3 of them being tanks unless it's some AoE bananza fight the dps would be shit.

[Th3Scourge]

The biggest problem with tanking is, and I cannot stress this enough... is that people are absolute cunts to tanks

You want more tanks, time to start being a bit more respectful to the tank. There's fewer of them, so you need him more than he needs you

[Kalcifur]

In a raid environment a tank absolutely does not need to lead and in fact is not in the best position with the best FoV to do so. In dungeons they absolutely should lead, as they have to control the pulling and pace of the dungeon. I think you have it reversed.

I shouldnhave been more clear. The problem with pug perception is that Only the tank can lead things. This just isnt true. There are many tanks who dont want to be active leaders, and there shouldnt be anything wrong with that.

In my guilds m+ key groups doing 15-17 currently in season 4 our main shot caller is our havoc dh and our holy paladin calls when the tank should speed up or slow down based on cds available. Every group dynamic will be slightly different, the important thing is to break through any ironclad paradigms that force very specific playstyles and gamer culture. There is nothing wrong with drawing a clear line when people in pug groups are being toxic, quite the opposite, that kind of self and social awareness is crucial.

In short, be flexible and willing to learn. That's not just a wow thing it's a life thing.

[dragi]

In my opinion most barrier is a making tank not only tank but whole LEADER of the run tank have to know mechanics and route. I guess you have on mind probably mythic plus from DF. In most cases tanks are promote to leader and other following. Take this responsibility from tank and put on leader shoulders F(party/raid maker). This could be solved only by change community mentality, if it's voice communicator it's no problem, pull this go here go there, all going fast. But in most cases from DF its no voice, so for example dps could have macro to fast marking and just lead tank with place mark its easty to see and i think it's make run only slightly slower.
Of course there is more problems but i think this is a main, healer role it's no easy to, most affixes are against healer like quake or bursting even shit pools, but we have no healers problem.

[munkeyinorbit]

Let's talk about this issue when there is actually a lack of dps, so NEVER. Also it would be quite easy to make it so that you only do this damage when you are active tanking.

They've tried it and it doesn't work no matter what you want. I am OK with the odd 1 in 20 tank gimmick fight. I am ok with a tank smashing it on trash, but a tank is a tank. If you want dps go dps. Think of actual interesting ways to make tanks better.