Iowa Caucus 2020 - MegaThread

[Fugus]

It wasn't a party with any heft 2 elections prior to Harrison's election. It was a third party, until it became one of the top two.

Nobody was saying a President would be elected from the third-most-popular party at the time We were pointing out that the current two parties can, either of them, be replaced in their prevalence by what was a third party, up to that point. Just by Americans voting differently.



This is an attempt to put the cart before the horse.

They were leaders of what had been a third party and then became one of the major two. They both prove that the idea that a third party can never take a place of power, that idea is false, because it happened, with both of them.

No one was talking about the possibility of the President being a representative of the third-most-popular party in his own election. That's a straw man you're inserting, and it's not a reasonable response.

Endus, I am not saying a 3rd party can't become a big 2, I am pointing out that in order for that to happen one of the big 2 parties has to COLLAPSE first and that none can really do it before that.

It doesn't matter how good or popular the 3rd party platform is before that point, it literally takes a major party dying before the 3rd party actually gets its chance.

You mistake what I said on that.

I never made the claim that a 3rd party couldn't transition, I was just pointing out that until that happens, the candidates in it have never stood a chance in this nations history and it took a major party to die before a 3rd party could raise up to stand that chance. Our system is setup in such a way where that is just how it is.

Quite literally, the Democratic party has to die before the whole "Go 3rd party" because an option and as shitty as they are, they aren't near there yet, especially with how much worse the Republican party is.

If Sanders was to go 3rd party under this situation, you would have everyone talking about how people would be stupid for voting for Sanders as he was just a spoiler and how they just gave the Republicans the presidency because of it.

It quote Russell Brand, "When I was poor and I talked about wealth inequality, I was just jealous. Now that I am rich if I talk about wealth in equality, I am a hypocrite. Seems less about me and more that they just don't want to talk about wealth inequality".

That is what it feels like when it comes to people talking about Sanders in the election. They don't want him in the Democratic party and talk about him running 3rd party, but then they would complain about people voting for him there because he would be a spoiler vote and they mainly just want to keep him from being involved at all.

- - - Updated - - -

thats like saying "you cant say a loser ever won because by definition only winners win and someone who was a loser who won is now a winner so doesn't count."

like yea, third parties exist on the fringes until they garner enough votes to become a major party. thats how it works in all forms of democracy.

Again, you never answered the question and you can't.

Never, in the history of this nation, has a 3rd party candidate ever won the presidency. That is why you are flailing right now.

[cubby]

Pete wins Iowa. How are Sanders supporters taking that news?

[starlord]

Endus, I am not saying a 3rd party can't become a big 2, I am pointing out that in order for that to happen one of the big 2 parties has to COLLAPSE first and that none can really do it before that.

It doesn't matter how good or popular the 3rd party platform is before that point, it literally takes a major party dying before the 3rd party actually gets its chance.

You mistake what I said on that.

I never made the claim that a 3rd party couldn't transition, I was just pointing out that until that happens, the candidates in it have never stood a chance in this nations history and it took a major party to die before a 3rd party could raise up to stand that chance. Our system is setup in such a way where that is just how it is.

Quite literally, the Democratic party has to die before the whole "Go 3rd party" because an option and as shitty as they are, they aren't near there yet, especially with how much worse the Republican party is.

If Sanders was to go 3rd party under this situation, you would have everyone talking about how people would be stupid for voting for Sanders as he was just a spoiler and how they just gave the Republicans the presidency because of it.

It quote Russell Brand, "When I was poor and I talked about wealth inequality, I was just jealous. Now that I am rich if I talk about wealth in equality, I am a hypocrite. Seems less about me and more that they just don't want to talk about wealth inequality".

That is what it feels like when it comes to people talking about Sanders in the election. They don't want him in the Democratic party and talk about him running 3rd party, but then they would complain about people voting for him there because he would be a spoiler vote and they mainly just want to keep him from being involved at all.

- - - Updated - - -



Again, you never answered the question and you can't.

Never, in the history of this nation, has a 3rd party candidate ever won the presidency. That is why you are flailing right now.

i guess if your definition of third party is a party who's never won the presidency it would be pretty hard to prove since its a tautology.

if sanders cant win over enough people to vote for him, thats democracy in action and his own failing. simple as that.

[Endus]

Endus, I am not saying a 3rd party can't become a big 2, I am pointing out that in order for that to happen one of the big 2 parties has to COLLAPSE first and that none can really do it before that.

It doesn't matter how good or popular the 3rd party platform is before that point, it literally takes a major party dying before the 3rd party actually gets its chance.

You mistake what I said on that.

This is nonsense.

That third party rising in prevalence is the collapse of that older party. They're the same thing. It isn't about which came first, it's two sides to the same event.

From a straw man, to this. C'mon.

[Trifle]

Nobody was saying a President would be elected from the third-most-popular party at the time We were pointing out that the current two parties can, either of them, be replaced in their prevalence by what was a third party, up to that point. Just by Americans voting differently.

I'm not sure that's very realistic anymore. With 120 million people voting who have had it pounded in to their heads over and over (and seen evidence!) that voting third party = wasted vote, convincing people to switch votes to a third party en masse is a big ask.

Not to mention the infrastructure behind the existing parties now... there's so much money in politics that the barrier to entry for a third party to challenge the existing two is fairly high (unless something happens to either of the existing two).

[Fugus]

Pete wins Iowa. How are Sanders supporters taking that news?

Well depends, is it a legit win or was their fuckery involved?

Also Sanders still got second place and still seems weird that someone can get first place in popular vote but not actually win within a single state.

Lets see how it plays out from here. Just glad Biden can start finally getting put to bed soon.

Reminds me of North Carolina in 2018, Democrats win the 12 contested districts by 164,000 votes but only gets 3 of them while the Republicans lost and got the other 9.

But honestly, the caucus thing got weird between the rounds, the coin tosses, I was half expecting them to start a sack race before too long.

- - - Updated - - -

i guess if your definition of third party is a party who's never won the presidency it would be pretty hard to prove since its a tautology.

if sanders cant win over enough people to vote for him, thats democracy in action and his own failing. simple as that.

No, my definition is exactly what I said it was, you just can't answer it because the facts destroy your assertion.

[Masark]

Pete wins Iowa. How are Sanders supporters taking that news?

By 0.1%. Not exactly a crushing victory there.

[cubby]

Well depends, is it a legit win or was their fuckery involved?

Also Sanders still got second place and still seems weird that someone can get first place in popular vote but not actually win within a single state.

Lets see how it plays out from here. Just glad Biden can start finally getting put to bed soon.

Reminds me of North Carolina in 2018, Democrats win the 12 contested districts by 164,000 votes but only gets 3 of them while the Republicans lost and got the other 9.

But honestly, the caucus thing got weird between the rounds, the coin tosses, I was half expecting them to start a sack race before too long.

I think Iowa is really just fucked up, even when things go perfectly. With the failure of that app they were using, it's a wonder Trump didn't win the Primary. IIRC, New Hampshire is a little more rational and after that I think it's pretty much straightforward (have to get 15% of the vote to win delegates, if not ranked voting?).

[Fugus]

This is nonsense.

That third party rising in prevalence is the collapse of that older party. They're the same thing. It isn't about which came first, it's two sides to the same event.

From a straw man, to this. C'mon.

Not entirely, the existing party has to completely lose it's following to the point the voters would largely stay home even without the 3rd party before the 3rd party gets it's chance.

I say this as something who lives in the US. Those SHOULD be heavily related but actually aren't as much as they should be because of the whole stigma of the whole "Wasted spoiler vote" deal.

It is like when the Republicans would rather vote for a dead pimp or a nazi than a Democrat, both parties will happily do the same rather than vote 3rd party and the media and too much all reinforces that mentality.
@Trifle is right on this one.

The system is entirely setup to prevent that from happening. That is what I keep trying to tell you.

I wish our system worked half as well as the Canadian system but it doesn't and that is unfortunately the nature of the beast we have down here.

[cubby]

By 0.1%. Not exactly a crushing victory there.

Agreed. I'm just curious how the Sanders' peeps are taking it.

[Fugus]

I think Iowa is really just fucked up, even when things go perfectly. With the failure of that app they were using, it's a wonder Trump didn't win the Primary. IIRC, New Hampshire is a little more rational and after that I think it's pretty much straightforward (have to get 15% of the vote to win delegates, if not ranked voting?).

Agreed. I just wish we could move to ranked choice voting and get rid of the whole primary/caucus crap and just let them all run at once in the general and let the public decide since spoilers aren't a thing anymore.

I would also move to public financing where they can't get donations, they can't self fund, and the parties can't even fund and let it all go from there.

I think I would be assassinated if I ever got into enough power to push for these effectively....

- - - Updated - - -

Agreed. I'm just curious how the Sanders' peeps are taking it.

As a Sanders person, I am largely fine with it overall. Not too happy but that entire thing was a cluster fuck and the difference is minor overall. It is if they start changing stuff midway through to favor a candidate or start trying to change stuff to a voice vote out of the blue and then pretend the voices say what you want, then THAT will piss people off.

[starlord]

Well depends, is it a legit win or was their fuckery involved?

Also Sanders still got second place and still seems weird that someone can get first place in popular vote but not actually win within a single state.

Lets see how it plays out from here. Just glad Biden can start finally getting put to bed soon.

Reminds me of North Carolina in 2018, Democrats win the 12 contested districts by 164,000 votes but only gets 3 of them while the Republicans lost and got the other 9.

But honestly, the caucus thing got weird between the rounds, the coin tosses, I was half expecting them to start a sack race before too long.

- - - Updated - - -



No, my definition is exactly what I said it was, you just can't answer it because the facts destroy your assertion.

how am i supposed to prove anything when you say a third party that wins doesn't count as a third party? and ranked choice voting does not somehow enable a minority party to win over a majority one.
if you don't want to be judged about who you voted for, don't spread it on the internet.

[Fugus]

how am i supposed to prove anything when you say a third party that wins doesn't count as a third party? and ranked choice voting does not somehow enable a minority party to win over a majority one.
if you don't want to be judged about who you voted for, don't spread it on the internet.

I didn't say a 3rd party win doesn't count as a third party. I said to tell me a win that happened for president while they were still a 3rd party.

And ranked choice does allow people to vote whom the want without being a spoiler vote so they can go with whom they want in order down to the so-called "Electable" one without it being seen as a vote for the person they want the most. It makes people much more willing to vote whom they want instead of whom they are told they have no choice because otherwise is wasted.

I will gladly tell you whom I vote for, but then I also get the whole "You threw your vote away and you are responsible for Trump" crap if it isn't the established parties nomination. If it is 3rd party or a write in, they treat it as thrown away and effectively it is.

[beanman12345]

I didn't say a 3rd party win doesn't count as a third party. I said to tell me a win that happened for president while they were still a 3rd party.

And ranked choice does allow people to vote whom the want without being a spoiler vote so they can go with whom they want in order down to the so-called "Electable" one without it being seen as a vote for the person they want the most. It makes people much more willing to vote whom they want instead of whom they are told they have no choice because otherwise is wasted.

I will gladly tell you whom I vote for, but then I also get the whole "You threw your vote away and you are responsible for Trump" crap if it isn't the established parties nomination. If it is 3rd party or a write in, they treat it as thrown away and effectively it is.

It is a throw away, but I'd rather a throwaway and a vote down ticket, then a stay at home don't vote at all.

[Fugus]

It is a throw away, but I'd rather a throwaway and a vote down ticket, then a stay at home don't vote at all.

That is what I did in 2016, I voted down ballot Democrat and wrote in Sanders name rather than vote Clinton after what she pulled. If Sanders had ran 3rd party and I voted for him then, I would still get the same crap for doing it. So the whole "He should ran 3rd party" has no water when they really look at it except for as a way to ignore him entirely.

[starlord]

I didn't say a 3rd party win doesn't count as a third party. I said to tell me a win that happened for president while they were still a 3rd party.

And ranked choice does allow people to vote whom the want without being a spoiler vote so they can go with whom they want in order down to the so-called "Electable" one without it being seen as a vote for the person they want the most. It makes people much more willing to vote whom they want instead of whom they are told they have no choice because otherwise is wasted.

I will gladly tell you whom I vote for, but then I also get the whole "You threw your vote away and you are responsible for Trump" crap if it isn't the established parties nomination. If it is 3rd party or a write in, they treat it as thrown away and effectively it is.

a third party still has to take votes from the major parties enough to become a major party in their own right, its a zero sum system.

why is it so hard to just accept responsibility for your own decision? you chose to swallow "conventional wisdom" when you always had the option of not. you chose to vote for whomever you did. you chose to share it.

there is absolutely nothing wrong with voting who you want the most. people are always going to criticize you no matter what.

the issue people take with the whole situation is because of the insinuations of corruption.

[cubby]

This will come up again, and is only ancillary to the DNC Primary, but the GOP is in full voter suppression mode this season.

[Flarelaine]

Seriously, if every Democratic voter decided "fuck the DNC" and voted McDonalds Party next election, you could have Ronald McDonald as your President in 2020.

That would bring a marked improvement in the White House.

[starlord]

That is what I did in 2016, I voted down ballot Democrat and wrote in Sanders name rather than vote Clinton after what she pulled. If Sanders had ran 3rd party and I voted for him then, I would still get the same crap for doing it. So the whole "He should ran 3rd party" has no water when they really look at it except for as a way to ignore him entirely.

and if the dems wanted to ignore him entirely they could have not let him run twice.

[cubby]

Agreed. I just wish we could move to ranked choice voting and get rid of the whole primary/caucus crap and just let them all run at once in the general and let the public decide since spoilers aren't a thing anymore.

I would also move to public financing where they can't get donations, they can't self fund, and the parties can't even fund and let it all go from there.

I think I would be assassinated if I ever got into enough power to push for these effectively....

We have always agreed on this position - I think most people do, outside the GOP corridors, of course. Not sure about getting rid of the primaries, however - that would be another conversation.

As a Sanders person, I am largely fine with it overall. Not too happy but that entire thing was a cluster fuck and the difference is minor overall. It is if they start changing stuff midway through to favor a candidate or start trying to change stuff to a voice vote out of the blue and then pretend the voices say what you want, then THAT will piss people off.

I do hope that all goes as planned and the primaries going forward run smoothly. I'm hoping that all states are seeing Iowa, and taking another look at their process, in case any new pieces have been added but remain largely untested.