What would have happend if Terenas decided to outright kill the orcs?

[Newname1234567890]

One of my favorite activities is going around and finding things from the RTSes and books--for example, in Classic you can find a ruined caravan on the path to Grim Batol that's from one of the novels, Day of the Dragon. It's not a novel I like, but I love the caravan's existence because it showed an attention to detail that helps Azeroth feel like a living, breathing world even to this day, when the game isn't necessarily at its best.

The world is at it's best when they do stuff like that.

[Piamonte]

He's an orc himself, I'd find it hard to believe he wouldn't think about them at all.

He stoppes being an orc after Kil'jaeden tortured him and cursed his spirit.

[Maljinwo]

Its all the night elves fault for bringing the legion anyway

[cparle87]

A lot of things would've changed. The Cult of the Damned's success in spreading the plague comes down to the orcs distracting the Alliance of Lordaeron with their rebellion. We can see in the very intro of the Human campaign that the Alliance did not have any concern for the plague that was spreading in the north due to the orcs attacking their doorsteps. If the orcs had been slaughtered at the end of the Second War, there wouldn't have been any orcish insurrection, thus the Alliance of Lordaeron could have devoted their full attention to countering the spread of the plague.

Defeating the Legion would've been very easy. Without the Scourge to summon him, Archimonde would've never invaded. Simple. The Alliance of Lordaeron had the means to easily stop the spread of the plague if they had actually focused on it before it was too late.

Wasn't the point of us saving Medivh in the Black Morass dungeon that the world NEEDED the orcs to come to this world to defend it themselves, and get the humans and other races to band together into the Alliance? In the Cata short story for Velen we see glimpses of visions where Jaina becomes a Lich Queen worse than Arthas ever could be and succeeds in wiping out all life on Azeroth, leaving it easy pickings when the Legion finally do make it there. Or futures when no one is able to stop Deathwing from calling forth the final Cataclysm, again a joint effort.

[Thage]

Wasn't the point of us saving Medivh in the Black Morass dungeon that the world NEEDED the orcs to come to this world to defend it themselves, and get the humans and other races to band together into the Alliance? In the Cata short story for Velen we see glimpses of visions where Jaina becomes a Lich Queen worse than Arthas ever could be and succeeds in wiping out all life on Azeroth, leaving it easy pickings when the Legion finally do make it there. Or futures when no one is able to stop Deathwing from calling forth the final Cataclysm, again a joint effort.

According to the Keepers of Time, if the Horde never came to Azeroth the human kingdoms would have fallen to infighting; even with the orcs present you can see how quickly the Alliance fell apart over the question of internment after the Second War (Gilneas withdrew, Silvermoon largely pulled out and only provided token support in the Third War until after Lordaeron and Dalaran had already fallen, and relations were strained among those left). This would have left the night elves alone against the Legion invasion.

The question in the thread is, "What if Terenas didn't inter the orcs and instead had them executed?" And that's a topic the Keepers don't really touch on, mostly because the Alliance would be in a far better position to send troops to Kalimdor, those sent wouldn't have been crippled by the Horde after Grom forced an encounter, and the Sentinels would be in a far better position as they wouldn't have suffered casualties at the hands of the Warsong Clan. And with both forces in much better shape, it calls into question how necessary the recently-reforged Horde would have been for Mt. Hyjal, although the Horde becomes much more integral to Azeroth's defense after as all three factions are generally better-off with three armies stalling the Legion rather than only two incurring massive casualties. Especially when they have to field troops four years later against the Qiraji, the Scourge, and the forces of Blackrock Mountain, then the Legion, then the Scourge's main force. So on and so forth.

[Jastall]

Terenas' death is really what sealed Lordaeron's fate. If he never died, a combined Lordaeron led by Terenas (with Arthas and Uther leading his armies) and with the might of the Alliance at its back would be able to defeat the Scourge.

Terenas died to Arthas, and the Orcs had little to do there. Basically, if Stratholme happens, the rest is history and Lordaeron is doomed. And given how distant the Orcish threat was to the city and its surroundings, I doubt their presence or absence would have changed much one way or another. And in the Human introduction cinematic, everyone but the Dalaran emissary seems completely dismissive of the Plague's ramifications, even calling him paranoid. It seems doubtful this complacent attitude would change much if the Orcs were not present.

So yeah, I do believe the game telling us that the world would have fallen to the Legion without the Horde during the Third War makes sense. Whenever the Alliance needs them around now, when it's an international superpower in its own right, is another matter entirely.

[Nathreim]

The Legion would have won the Third War.

[LemonDemonGirl]

we just need metzen back and danuser kicked out. metzen as narrative director would be the top tier.

Golden should probably go too. But I'm not sure if that'd fix anything with the story, other than human/elf characters showing up less

[Feanoro]

Essentially, "we needed the Horde against the Legion!" was the excuse used to turn them from the demon fueled bloodthirsty maniacs slaughtering their way through Azeroth to bloodthirsty maniacs barely held in check by Thrall's novel idea that killing everyone might not be the best way to win friends.

More seriously, it was a lazy writing device to stop "why the hell wouldn't they slaughter the orcs?" and similar logical questions, since they knew they were developing WoW.

[Varodoc]

Terenas died to Arthas, and the Orcs had little to do there. Basically, if Stratholme happens, the rest is history and Lordaeron is doomed. And given how distant the Orcish threat was to the city and its surroundings, I doubt their presence or absence would have changed much one way or another. And in the Human introduction cinematic, everyone but the Dalaran emissary seems completely dismissive of the Plague's ramifications, even calling him paranoid. It seems doubtful this complacent attitude would change much if the Orcs were not present.

So yeah, I do believe the game telling us that the world would have fallen to the Legion without the Horde during the Third War makes sense. Whenever the Alliance needs them around now, when it's an international superpower in its own right, is another matter entirely.

Terenas died to Arthas... after Arthas was lured to Northrend, because the Cult successfully spread the Plague all the way to Stratholme, due to the Alliance being mostly distracted by the orcs' rebellion in the south. It is a chain of events closely connected that cannot be ignored.

All the other Alliance leaders were not interested in the Plague threat because, well, as you hear at the beginning, the orcs were gathering at their doorsteps and marching to war. Why would anyone care about the Plague at that point? Especially since its magical nature had yet to be confirmed and the other leaders just weren't interested in researching it.

Also what the game told us could've just been an alternate timeline, one of the many. Just like there could be a timeline where the Human kingdoms turned on each other without the Horde, so there could've been one where they flourished without the Horde and ultimately managed to lead the defense against the Legion. As we see in the Vision of Garrosh, there are many possible realities, there's not just one. We have many possible Garrosh, many of which were brilliant, and we got stuck with the crazy one.

[Timester]

Without the orcs, the reason for the Alliance to be around would simply be gone.

The human kingdoms would go back to their old bickering of border conflict (Kul Tiras vs. Gilneas vs. Stromgarde), manipulated by the Cult of the Damned this time, making the spreading of the Plague even easier this time.

Events would be very different, but it would led to the continent of Lordaeron led by the Scourge.

- - - Updated - - -

Terenas died to Arthas... after Arthas was lured to Northrend, because the Cult successfully spread the Plague all the way to Stratholme, due to the Alliance being mostly distracted by the orcs' rebellion in the south. It is a chain of events closely connected that cannot be ignored.

Alternate History 101 mistake right there. Alternate History isn't just about changing "Timeline Bulletpoints".

Especially when here we have an unstable Alliance that stayed glued because external threats. Without the orcs, that need is gone (something that Deathwing managed to play with, even with the orcs around).

[Tarba]

Kel'thuzad had been gathering followers for 3 years, at the same time when the orcs were breaking from their internment camps. Also Kel'thuzad and the Cult revealed themselves only after the Lich King believed the perfect moment to strike had come, so it's the opposite of what you said. The Lich King's plan relied a lot on the orcs' success.

Furthermore, Kel'thuzad's success in finding any follower at all is only because Terenas was taxing the shit out of his people to fund the internment camps. If the orcs had just been exterminated, nobody would be angry with Terenas and thus Kel'thuzad would hardly have any follower.

In what world do you live? There would still be poor people. There would still be ones seeking more power, there would still be taxes. It's not hard to find those people. It's really easy to say "if you are not happy with your condition it's because of the king or of the alliance, elves took your job!"
And it works pretty well in our own world.

[Timester]

In what world do you live? There would still be poor people. There would still be ones seeking more power, there would still be taxes. It's not hard to find those people. It's really easy to say "if you are not happy with your condition it's because of the king or of the alliance, elves took your job!"
And it works pretty well in our own world.

Not only that. The Alliance is, as the name says, an Alliance. Without the orcs, why would:

- Dalaran support the genocide that they were against in the first place? They would leave the Alliance.
- Why would Proudmoore, Greymane and Trollbane support Lordaeron? They hated each other before the Second War, and with the juicy prize of Alterac around, they would go back to their bickering.
- Quel'thalas would leave, as they always do.
- So, it's basically an Alliance of Lordaeron, a rebuilding Stormwind controled by Katrana and Ironforge.

With so many cracks, unhappy and poor people, the Cult of the Damned can easily manipulate the events. The Legion could even send Mal'ganis to become part of a court and control it, instead of baiting Arthas.

[Nynax]

Terenas died to Arthas... after Arthas was lured to Northrend, because the Cult successfully spread the Plague all the way to Stratholme, due to the Alliance being mostly distracted by the orcs' rebellion in the south. It is a chain of events closely connected that cannot be ignored.

Yeah...I always got the sense that the timeline for the plague was faster than that.

Maybe Lorderean didn't give it their full attention. But Arthas and Jaina were still sent just to investigate, because Dalaran cared and needed proof for Terenas. Don't forget Terenas' quote "I will not make my people prisoners in their own lands;" he wasn't interested in fast action. I think Stratholme still happens, and without the orcs Andorhal might have sent grain to even more towns, before Arthas and Jaina are able to catch up.

My big point is, Arthas and Jaina were pretty much on top of it, regardless. To the point that Kel'Thuzad was straight up told "you're going to lose, and he's going to kill you."

Let's not forget that Medivh was busy going around saying "Ya'll fucked. Get the fuck out." He didn't think anyone was gunna make it in the Eastern Kingdoms.

[Raelbo]

Terenas died to Arthas... after Arthas was lured to Northrend, because the Cult successfully spread the Plague all the way to Stratholme, due to the Alliance being mostly distracted by the orcs' rebellion in the south. It is a chain of events closely connected that cannot be ignored.

Yes, but just because you remove one distraction, does not mean that another wouldn't take it's place, or that the final outcome would miraculously turn out fine.

As @Timester has pointed out, without the Horde, there would be no need for the Alliance. And without that need, without a common enemy to unite them, it's likely that the various factions would simply end up being distracted by infighting.

[Toppy]

In WoW written by aging metal fans and necrophiliacs, sure. In WC3, they made Grom Hellscream crap his pants.

I find it hilarious that the entire Nelf fandom pretty much revolves around that one quote from Grom.

Even in WC3 the Night Elf campaigns were them just constantly losing and failing. Their entire campaign starts with them failing at basic scouting. Their first appearance in the campaign is getting their shit kicked in by a single Orcish clan. This continues in TFT with Malfurion being overly quick to anger and Tyrande nearly killing herself while Maiev wastes an army.

[Arikara]

Maybe. Keep in mind that without the Horde resurgent, the Alliance forces that followed Jaina (including at least one brigade each from Stormwind, Gilneas, Stromgarde, and Alterac) wouldn't have been crippled by Grom's rampage early in the Kalimdor theatre; moreover, the Alliance wouldn't have suffered further losses trying to fend the Horde off in other missions, and without the orcs clearcutting Ashenvale immediately setting the night elves against them, the Sentinels would be at full fighting strength, including Cenarius's aid.

The Warsong, the Frostwolves, and several other clans weren't captured. Grom was only captured at the very start of the events of Wc3, remaining free between the events of Wc2, Lord of the Clans, and the start of Wc3. If anything they would have fought all the harder seeing their comrades being executed.

Jaina alone would likely have had a better chance of establishing a coalition with the night elves early on given her penchant for diplomacy, and without Grom's rampage through Ashenvale, neither the Alliance forces or Sentinels would have had costly diversions dealing with his fuckery in general. So with both the Alliance forces that landed on Kalimdor and the Sentinels at full strength (without either having had to deal with losses incurred by dealing with the Warsong in particular), they still may have been able to hold Archimonde off long enough.

Jaina's forces barely even skirmished with the Night Elves at all. Tyrande led one attack against them before the Burning Legion attacked. However, Cenarius not being dead would've been a big help—but Mannoroth being alive would also have been a significant problem, but although Cenarius is more powerful than Mannoroth and the Sentinels did suffer some Grom-incurred losses, these were mere skirmishes and most of the Sentinel's real losses were to the Scourge and the Legion. The larger power difference is really with the Horde forces, and would have been a net loss for the defenders. Although only represented by Wc3 gameplay, it's implied that Twilight of the Gods was a pretty close call—moreso than many of the WoW campaigns ever were.

Where the main problem comes to play is later, after the Battle for Mt. Hyjal, as the Horde's additional troops proved invaluable in other theatres (namely the Might of Kalimdor, Blackrock Mountain, and Naxxramas, and later, the Outland and Northrend campaigns, at which point the Horde started to become a liability again as two Warchiefs went mad with power).

"Orcs. Trolls. Undead. Tauren. Long ago, the four races lived together in harmony. Then, everything changed when Sylvanas was retroactively retconned to have been behind Wrathgate. Only Cairne, master of all four races, could move beyond this nonsense, but when the Horde needed him most, he was killed off offscreen. Six expansions passed, and the writers may have finally realized that making the Horde leadership literally be evil for the sake of driving the faction conflict may have had severe negative impact on the Horde playerbase. And although the writers have put forth Baine to atone for their sins, it comes off as disingenuine. I don't believe that this inter-faction rift can be mended."

[Varodoc]

Without the orcs, the reason for the Alliance to be around would simply be gone.
Alternate History 101 mistake right there. Alternate History isn't just about changing "Timeline Bulletpoints".

Especially when here we have an unstable Alliance that stayed glued because external threats. Without the orcs, that need is gone (something that Deathwing managed to play with, even with the orcs around).

Not really. There is no indication that the Alliance was going to break after the Second War. If anything it's the opposite, members like Stromgarde, Gilneas, and Quel'thalas, who did not agree with the internment camps, would have remained in the Alliance.

Yeah...I always got the sense that the timeline for the plague was faster than that.

Maybe Lorderean didn't give it their full attention. But Arthas and Jaina were still sent just to investigate, because Dalaran cared and needed proof for Terenas. Don't forget Terenas' quote "I will not make my people prisoners in their own lands;" he wasn't interested in fast action. I think Stratholme still happens, and without the orcs Andorhal might have sent grain to even more towns, before Arthas and Jaina are able to catch up.

My big point is, Arthas and Jaina were pretty much on top of it, regardless. To the point that Kel'Thuzad was straight up told "you're going to lose, and he's going to kill you."

Let's not forget that Medivh was busy going around saying "Ya'll fucked. Get the fuck out." He didn't think anyone was gunna make it in the Eastern Kingdoms.

At the same time what you say in WC3 is the culmination of 3 years Kel'thuzad spent building the Cult. The Cult got influence in the first place because the people of Lordaeron were angry with the King due to the high taxes to fund the camps. Thus, if the orcs were exterminated, Kel'thuzad's influence in Lordaeron would have been reduced drastically.

Yes, but just because you remove one distraction, does not mean that another wouldn't take it's place, or that the final outcome would miraculously turn out fine.

As @Timester has pointed out, without the Horde, there would be no need for the Alliance. And without that need, without a common enemy to unite them, it's likely that the various factions would simply end up being distracted by infighting.

I still don't see why you would think that? Especially when some kingdoms (like, ironically, Gilneas) genuinely wanted to be closer with each other. There was this sense of cooperation with humans before the Second War even started, and it's the reason why Gilneas joined the Alliance, because they wanted closer trade relationships with the other nations. If that was true for the most isolationist Human kingdom, then it was probably true for most other nations too.

[Mehrunes]

The High Elves didn't leave because of the internment camps. They left because they didn't want to be in the Alliance in the first place and human had to coin in a 3000 years old vow to make them join. Them joining in for the Second War fulfilled that vow and with Lothar biting the dust they were no longer bound by it as he was the last member of the line of Arathor.

Gilneas and Stromgarde didn't leave just over the Orcs. The Alterac conundrum was the other factor. And with Terenas not willing to give Alterac lands to either of them they likely still would have left. After all, with Orcs gone there would be nothing really keeping them together anymore.

I found nothing on the Barovs' teaming up with Kel'thuzad being linked to the Orcs.

The farmers would still have suffered because serfdom for starters. Living Orcs or not the human kingdoms would still have been recuperating from war so Terenas would still have the anti-containment position in regards to the Plague because his people "already suffered enough".

And, finally, the Scourge was already prepared for war against the humans. Naxxramas was already raised from the ground and given to Kel'Thuzad. In the end it wasn't needed because they managed to win through subterfuge but even if things happened differently (though, as per the above reasons, I doubt they would to any serious degree), they would have gone with their initial option of war. If Kel'thuzad suddenly dropped Naxxramas on top of Lordaeron City there'd be very little the humans could have done against it. And with every dead human the ranks of the Scourge would have grown.

The whole escapade with Arthas was Ner'zhul's plan to foil the Legion and escape his prison. Not to win against the humans.

[Venziir]

I think it's pretty much Terenas himself who inadvertently sped up the membership of the Cult of the Damned and greatly contributed to the Burning Legion's Third Invasion. I mean because he decided to push to tax for the Internment Camps, it put the Alliance of Lordaeron in a very tight spot:

• Gilneas Leaving, and them building the Greymane Wall
• Arathi Leaving
• High Elves Leaving, _{which subsequently fueled Othmar Garithos hatred towards the High Elves}; and the elves who helped in Warcraft 3 were just random volunteers or were commissioned by the Kirin Tor and Silverhand
• The Barovs' desperation that made them accept and build the bastion for the Cult of the Damned
• Many angry farmers and impoverished people joining the Cult of the Damned
• All of the above, domino effect on Gilneas, Stromgarde, and (formally) Quel'thalas not being there for Lordaeron when Arthas was still scourging the Western Plaguelands (at least they had Kalimdor brigades, it's something)

So, title. Would the Cult of the Damned be just some sort of a small group of humans and elves in a small camp? Would the Kul Tirans have completely genocided the Darkspears in Sen'jin Isles? Would Dar'kan Drathir dabble in the Void instead of helping the Cult of the Damned? Would the Centaurs drive the Taurens to extinction? What do you guys think?

Edit: I'm guessing if not the Plague problem, the Alliance of Lordaeron might have been able to help the Gnomes defend their homeland from the Troggs.

"What would have happend if Terenas decided to outright kill the orcs?" - Might wanna read up on the plot for Warcraft 3