False dichotomy: hardcore vs. casual

[Caprias]

tl;dr for those who misunderstood the point of my original post.

There are 2 categories of gamers that Blizzard can target:
1. social gamers
2. anti-social gamers

WoW used to be a social game. Organizing 40 man raids, spamming trade to find a group, waiting for longer BG queues because you could only play with your realm ate up a lot of time. But the payoff was that you interacted with other people and formed friendships.

The problem with targeting social gamers is that their continued subscription is heavily dependent on the networks that they formed as well as the overall quality of the game. Take Cataclysm for example. Many people quit because they didn't like the game's core design anymore. Others, while they liked the game's core design, started to quit because their longstanding friends / guilds quit and they felt discouraged. Designing content for social gamers is inefficient from business PoV because how well they integrate into the game's social structure is an externality the business has no control over and them liking a particular expansion is influenced by subjective factors as well as the objective state of the game.

Anti-social gamers, on the other hand, don't give a shit about the game's social structure. They effectively play WoW as a lobby / singleplayer game. To them it DOESN'T matter if others quit. Designing content for them is efficient because you can be assured they won't quit en-mass because of network effects. Plus they tend to be mentally unwell and exhibit compulsive behaviors. Hence instead of aiming to design quality content, you can just pump out addictive crap to keep them subscribed.

WoW's core audience is essentially the second group now.

Blizzard's shifting direction for WoW was never about casualizing the game. If anything, it's more hardcore than ever now. It was all about their conscious decision to start targeting anti-social, addicted and otherwise mentally unsound people.

It is in no way this black and white, it is no vacuum.
Most casual players (who carry this game financially for sure) are not anti social, but they can't or don't want to invest the time and their mind to this game so much that they seek out guilds/groups, i was like that for most of the early expansions until i found a classmate who raided starting in mop.

WoW was always build around these players day one, you could always quest alone, grouping up was more useful/convenient back then but never forced to play the game, for months if you played casually you could just level and enjoy the game, do whatever you want (just like now too btw )

Also i really disagree with the more hardcore than ever part, you don't understand the mindset of most casual players i guess, you really think most players care about doing daily stuff and getting everything done they could? hell no.

Edit: if you want a representation about how committed most players are: look at views from youtube guides/in-depth game discussions and then look at ranty stuff and or WoW related memes.
Same with the WoW reddit even though they occasionally get more into meaty stuff like now with the rwf, usually you'll find a ton of memes and artwork there but not much critical thinking about gameplay aspects.
Hell, look at what NA general discussion is like..

[dacoolist]

tl;dr for those who misunderstood the point of my original post.

There are 2 categories of gamers that Blizzard can target:
1. social gamers
2. anti-social gamers

WoW used to be a social game. Organizing 40 man raids, spamming trade to find a group, waiting for longer BG queues because you could only play with your realm ate up a lot of time. But the payoff was that you interacted with other people and formed friendships.

The problem with targeting social gamers is that their continued subscription is heavily dependent on the networks that they formed as well as the overall quality of the game. Take Cataclysm for example. Many people quit because they didn't like the game's core design anymore. Others, while they liked the game's core design, started to quit because their longstanding friends / guilds quit and they felt discouraged. Designing content for social gamers is inefficient from business PoV because how well they integrate into the game's social structure is an externality the business has no control over and them liking a particular expansion is influenced by subjective factors as well as the objective state of the game.

Anti-social gamers, on the other hand, don't give a shit about the game's social structure. They effectively play WoW as a lobby / singleplayer game. To them it DOESN'T matter if others quit. Designing content for them is efficient because you can be assured they won't quit en-mass because of network effects. Plus they tend to be mentally unwell and exhibit compulsive behaviors. Hence instead of aiming to design quality content, you can just pump out addictive crap to keep them subscribed.

WoW's core audience is essentially the second group now.

Blizzard's shifting direction for WoW was never about casualizing the game. If anything, it's more hardcore than ever now. It was all about their conscious decision to start targeting anti-social, addicted and otherwise mentally unsound people.

You're very detailed and right about a lot, and I think to really add into this: Blizzard tries to do anything they can to keep people subbed while playing the least amount of time possible - they have dedicated think tanks to this and it shows.

I personally get my monies worth out of WoW BIG TIME, I play on average 2-3 hours EVERY SINGLE DAY (some days I technically dont play at all, some days I play 4-6 hours in one sitting)..

The games built around money, it's a cash cow - BUT - they do try to make the game addictive and fun as well.. hence when classic was a thing aka vanilla for us Original WoW Players: it could be rather daunting to have to spent like 3 hours just to get one single task done back then because everything was SHIT back then.. compared to todays world.. we play a themepark mmo.. you play at a high skill cap depending on who you run with and what you're trying to do

[Echeyakee]

You have good ideas, but you're conclusions are flawed and biased. And weirdly personal.

It's not "healthy" vs addicted or social butterfly vs basement dwellers. Nor is it a secret plan by activision bliz to shift their target demographic. It's just your average dopamine hits from accomplishing small goals. Pretty much everyone in gaming and many other industries is using it. And it works on everyone, regardless if how "woke" or "socially adjusted" you are. It's simple chemistry.

Doing things like that gets them better numbers at lower cost.

[Tiwack]

Here and there you make sense but you can't assume everyone subscribes to your standards. Take control and play how you want to play the game. The grinds are there for people that love the competitive game and nature of racing for the recognition it brings. Play it on your own terms, far more are completely happy going at the content in their own tempo though - without any pressure whatsoever other than what they apply themselves/subject themselves to through their choice of raiding and guild. While a few are progressing mythic the majority of players are still only just venturing into the new raid on normal.

[Sansnom]

Addicted, socially awkward and otherwise mentally unwell people, on the other hand, don't really care about the quality of content. Rather, it's the quantity they're after. They want their daily fix of WoW no matter how bad it is and Blizzard is more than happy to design infinitely grindable features to satisfy their cravings. The longer the content takes to do the better. Why bother designing fun content when you can pump out crap after crap after crap? After all, quantity is much easier to do than quality.

You have no idea what these people do, what guilds they do, what lifes they lead. Just because they prefer LFR suddenly imply they are socially awkward.

What is the main different between LFR and LFG or old PUGs? LFR is easier to enter because Blizzard sets the standards, not the players. Do people talk more in PUGs than in LFR groups? Not in my experience.

People should just stopping judging others because they play different. Are they interfering with you in anyway? Are they stopping you from playing? Has Blizzard stop making your all important raids?

You do not know them yet you seems to think you are in position to judge them.

[Erous]

Always find it comical to hear "I'm not a hardcore no-lifer that can spend that kinda time to do mythic content." - The casual player with 15 120 alts with full neck and cloak.

[Soon-TM]

There is absolutely nothing casual about modern WoW's infinite grinding. A casual can easily clear all current raiding content while investing minimum time. I played no more than 12 hours a week back during Vanilla-Cataclysm eras and still managed to most of then-current raiding content. That is what I would consider a casual. I can't call myself a casual anymore. I have to dedicate at least two hours a day and that's WITHOUT raiding to just staying relevant with all the endless grinds. With all this bonus shit that I have to do on top of holding down a job, looking after myself and maintaining my hobbies and irl relationships, I don't see myself being able to keep up with these grinds much longer. But Blizzard doesn't care because their addicts will keep giving them endless $$$ as long as they keep pumping out infinite, boring, repeatable, grindy content.

Bingo, I commend you for your post, good sir. All the defensive blizzdrones ITT are merely confirming (even if inadvertedly) what you said.

[Jastall]

I'd like to point out all the biased fallacies in the OP but sadly I don't have all week.

Suffice it to say that correlating how and how much one plays WoW with their mental well-being says a lot, lot more about the poster making such a claim than the playerbase.

[even]

I more or less agree with you but I sadly think that this is also they way most AA-AAA games are designed nowadays to maximize profits. WoW is in the comfortable position of having established a subscription system instead of a "games a service"-system. So instead of designing a lot of e.g. cosmetic items (at least in quantity-terms) which are bought by some individuals (I think they are called whales), they design repetitive content in order for people to be able to say "oh I could also do 1-2 wq" (= getting a small fix, as you say it). I personally don't mind the subscription system but I would prefer doing "single" grinds to achieve a goal (e.g. getting exalted by chainpulling mobs for X amount of hours) and being done with it once I am exalted. With WQs and to a lesser degree dailies (you explained the difference perfectly) there is almost always the "oh, only this more and I am done"-effect while still not being able to reach the goal in the comparatively less amount of time as in a "single" grind.

Nonetheless I might add that I don't think BfA is as bad an addon as "most players on forum" say. Other than the WQ/AP/titanforging/corruption game design I enjoy it, mainly because I am in the lucky position of not having to rely on LfR etc and am still playing/raid/do m+ with long-time ingame mates.

[arr0gance]

Bingo, I commend you for your post, good sir. All the defensive blizzdrones ITT are merely confirming (even if inadvertedly) what you said.

Ah yes, because you're a Blizzdrone if you point out the very real fact that gaming has changed in the decade since Vanilla-Cata was relevant?

[Wilfire]

Ah yes, because you're a Blizzdrone if you point out the very real fact that gaming has changed in the decade since Vanilla-Cata was relevant?

Gaming changed because people didn't push back hard enough when shitty changes were being implemented. People let the Celestial Steed slide because they couldn't even imagine that all of the unique and interesting mounts would be store-only 10 years later. People let LFG slide because they couldn't even imagine that all of the game's social features would be irreversibly butchered in favor of turning WoW into a glorified lobby game 10 years later. People let dailies slide because they couldn't even imagine that they would be a mandatory everyday grind 10 years later. And now it's too late. Blizzard took all of the aforementioned features and dialed them up to 11.

[Eurhetemec]

So your thesis is basically "Everyone who plays WoW when I don't enjoy it is mentally ill or has serious social problems, probably due to mental illness".

It's a bold strategy, Cotton.

[Kumorii]

If the only ones enjoying the game are anti socials why is it that I don't play the game unless I have people to play with? Only reason I have a guild is to do content with people I like. Puging is awful and always was, even in vanilla.

Only thing LFR and LFG did was making it easier to pug. Also it's a weird conclusion that puging were somehow better because you had to bond with people. Once you bond they aren't pugs anymore. Up until then it's roulette if you end up with idiots or not.

Spamming LFG channel didn't create bonds since people just spammed what they were looking and either you got an invite or not. Just like LFG tool except not automated.

[ek0zu]

I completely agree with the OP.

I was so pumped up with BFA when it started because i haven't played since TBC, but reality hit me hard, i just could not keep up with the constant ilvl hunting.

The current WoW cannot be played from anyone who doesn't invest at least 2-3 hours per day, you simply can't perform no matter how mechanically good player you are.

[Eurhetemec]

The current WoW cannot be played from anyone who doesn't invest at least 2-3 hours per day, you simply can't perform no matter how mechanically good player you are.

You're talking about the higher-end parts of the endgame, i.e. Mythic keys above 10, Heroic and Mythic raiding in current content, and so on. It absolutely can be played if that's not what you're wanting to do.

[Fartoo]

I completely agree with the OP.

The current WoW cannot be played from anyone who doesn't invest at least 2-3 hours per day, you simply can't perform no matter how mechanically good player you are.

Sure you can, just not at the highest level (high m+ and mythic raids). Could you please show me which game you can play for one hour a day, and be at the high level in it ?

[Zantera]

It used to be about time investment with the hardcore players sinking a lot more time into it, however I feel this has slightly changed over time. I know plenty of 'casuals' (and yes they call themselves that) who spend WAAAAYYY more time in the game than people who play on a higher level. Heck, my current guild isn't that great in a bigger sense and we finished EP at only 5/9 mythic with 2 mythic nights a week, but we had raiders on our roster (a few at least) with less hours in the game weekly than some socials who didn't get Ahead of the Curve.

So for me it's a mentality thing. The 'hardcore' are the people pushing themselves to get better whether it's arena ranking, r.io score or mythic progression and the casuals are the people who are either not good enough OR have no interest in challenging content.

[ek0zu]

Eurhetemec, Fartoo

You are both correct but i am not talking about Heroic difficulty and Mythic+ below 10. I am talking about the highest difficulty.

To say the truth Fartoo, i don't know if there is a game like that at the moment,

but my ideal WoW would be, When a group of equally skilled players with Method, Limit, etc band together and play the exact same hours during the raids, they should be able to oppose them. At the moment this is not possible, these guys deserve massive kudos for the work they put it in during the preparation period, which is ZERO fun.

To make an analogy with sports, i don't want to shoot 300 jumphoots, dribble the ball for hours just to play a game, I did that during my time in the basketball academy (leveling). The fun part of basketball is the actual 5vs5 game (the raids), not the practice (ap farming, essences, you name it).

Believe it or not even if i hugely respect those people who compete in the RWF scene, i am sure that there are people who are on the same level as those guys who just don't play anymore due to those obstacles. I also believe that Max, Sco, etc would really love to purge those well known obstacles and compete with many many others. From a financial perspective this approach might not be optimum but from a gameplay approach it is.

To wrap this up, one difficulty Mythic only, same terms of competition for all players who enter the raid, those who put in the raid time and the execution-coordination win. Profit.

P.S. i hope i made sense with my analogies and shit

[Wilfire]

You're talking about the higher-end parts of the endgame, i.e. Mythic keys above 10, Heroic and Mythic raiding in current content, and so on. It absolutely can be played if that's not what you're wanting to do.

Being good enough to do high-end content is already time-consuming enough. You have to bring your A-game and be up to date on the latest tactics, builds, stat optimization etc. Why make those players grind on top of having to train to be good?

[Xath]

Casual doesn't equal bad that's more who this game is currently designed outside the highest end raiding. Tons of power is flat out baked into items it doesn't matter how badly you perform that mind flay tentacle will still do a tun of damage so will infinite stars. The game now has baked in power that is based on luck and functions regardless of skill to a degree that gear never has before. Classes and specs have also been chopped to an absurd degree most feel like you are playing the same thing but with a different coat of pain aka visual effects.