Ny'alotha, The Waking City World First Race

[Battlebeard]

Sir, this is a video game.

Limit got the World First fair and square. Whatever imaginary advantage you conjured up for the race was not applicable this time around since Method took well over a day more to defeat N'zoth.

The start times will never be fair due to time zones.

On this we agree, and that's why I think this whole thing is just a joke and riddicilous.

[-aiko-]

Method doesn't check Limits strats, they have it down to details before the raid is even released.

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You can say they won fair and square and that they beat Method with more than 12, 16 and even 24 hours etc.

But no one can ever convince me it's fair to have a race where the contestants doesn't have the EXACT same conditions.

Then this is a you problem, because not even Method considered it an 'advantage' for Limit this tier. Particularly because some of the bosses were bugged for NA and they hit walls until they were fixed. Any advantage they had did not last.

Also, the later bosses can't be tested in PTR so Method did not just "have it down to details" before the raid was released. We watched live as Method adjusted their strategies for Ilgy, Carapace and N'zoth after Limit got their kills. Limit beat every boss cleaner and quicker than every other guild. Stop trying to downplay their achievement because you're salty. Limit straight outplayed Method. It happens.

No one likes the head start, but the truth is the argument would change if they did a 'global' release anyway. Instead of whining about a head start, people would whine about whoever had the better hours (day raiding vs evening raiding).

[Xjev]

Then this is a you problem, because not even Method considered it an 'advantage' for Limit this tier. Particularly because some of the bosses were bugged for NA and they hit walls until they were fixed. Any advantage they had did not last.

Also, the later bosses can't be tested in PTR so Method did not just "have it down to details" before the raid was released. We watched live as Method adjusted their strategies for Ilgy, Carapace and N'zoth after Limit got their kills. Limit beat every boss cleaner and quicker than every other guild. Stop trying to downplay their achievement because you're salty. Limit straight outplayed Method. It happens.

No one likes the head start, but the truth is the argument would change if they did a 'global' release anyway. Instead of whining about a head start, people would whine about whoever had the better hours (day raiding vs evening raiding).

This round Limit won beautifully, fair and square. But them starting on Tuesday, method on Wednesday can put some stress on Method coming from behind, even bugged bosses give you practice time. And its not just the start day, its the week one reset day as well. You get some head start which can put pressure on the one coming from behind. But regardless this is not Limit's fault and nothing can be done about it. Its community rules and Method is find with it.

[Xath]

Method doesn't check Limits strats, they have it down to details before the raid is even released.

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You can say they won fair and square and that they beat Method with more than 12, 16 and even 24 hours etc.

But no one can ever convince me it's fair to have a race where the contestants doesn't have the EXACT same conditions.

They absolutely do check limit's strats Scrype admitted as much especially for the later more difficult bosses. Very few of the final third of an instance is killed on the ptr and for the most part it has limited testing to prevent kills on the ptr from happening. They would be incredibly stupid not to do so.

[dacoolist]

Still .. nobody but Method or Limit with a kill

I love all the coattail riding from people when nobody else has a kill yet they call these two Legendary God Tier guilds shit

Still waiting on alpha, or pieces or you know ANYONE ELSE for a mythic nzoth kill

I'm not a mythic raider so I don't have a horse in the race, but all in all - still funny seeing people come out of the wood work acting a fool when they can barely clear LFR ;D

[nicbizz]

They don’t care. The head of the hedge fund said he wanted obsessive workers who couldn’t stand to leave the job undone.

They didn’t expect us all to make it, they were looking for the 1/3 of us who could handle it. I would say roughly 1/3 just weren’t smart enough, 1/3 (including me) refused to work that hard, and the other third are millionaires now.

Winner take all economy.

That was my experience in my early 20’s as an analyst as well. 80-100 hr week was the norm, and nobody complained cause there were a hundred guys hungry for your spot if you fuck up.

And the ugly truth is half that shit is deliberate. Chuck them through the grinder and see what comes out the other end. My mate, in the middle of a stag weekend, got a work call and had to work the rest of it, I kid you not. He was an junior analyst, there’s absolutely nothing he could do that’s that critical, but I guess his boss thought it would be funny.

But like you said, the payoff is obscene, which is the reason why people put up with it.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

If the race was serious and real Blizzard would have a tournament realm like setup where the compitition takes place. Everyone would be able to transfer toons over per an agreed rule setup. Outside of the guild resources couldn't flow like a river into the compitition. Everyone would start at the same time, be at the same place, when bugs were found all sides would stop until a fix was made, and rules would be made and enforced with independent judges that would probably need to be Blizzard employees. You wouldn't be able to see or hear what the others were doing.

But the truth is no one wants to do that. Method and Limit want thier finacials in thier hands. People would have to take off more from work, travel, and the headaches and costs that come with both. You would need to rent a space for it to happen. Qualifiers that would require all these things again to see who goes. Blizzard doesnt want to organize it or put money into it.

End of the day the race is just kind of a dumb thing that is mildly entertaining for a while. It isn't anything official. Both sides have certain advantages and disadvantages that really don't matter unless your side loses then its an excuse. All it boils down to is a boss you will kill 50 times over and over again dying first. Just a fun little community event. Nothing more because thats all anyone wants it to be unless they get to be the ones controlling it and no one will agree to any one group owning it and Blizzard is really the only one that can take it by force and its obvious they won't by now.

So that is really that. Just not something worth crying about in the end.

[nicbizz]

Tbf Europe does generally get more vacation. US vacation time sucks.

And I love when people say "they're college students! Plenty of free time!" I lived in a major college town for 3 years and, I don't know how it works in europe, but in the us most of those college kids are working on top of school.

Yea, but top-tier raiders are disproportionately students and those “between jobs”. And while some college kids worked, there were a whole lot of privileged bums too.

It wasn’t a vacation issue. The player base in NA with the quality, and free time, was there. For whatever reason, NA guild leadership just wasn’t that motivated to push WF, until Max came along.

[-aiko-]

This round Limit won beautifully, fair and square. But them starting on Tuesday, method on Wednesday can put some stress on Method coming from behind, even bugged bosses give you practice time. And its not just the start day, its the week one reset day as well. You get some head start which can put pressure on the one coming from behind. But regardless this is not Limit's fault and nothing can be done about it. Its community rules and Method is find with it.

I suppose the point is no matter what Blizzard does to "balance" the raid releases there would always be an argument for it being unfair because of x, y or z. It is what it is.

[js3915]

I suppose the point is no matter what Blizzard does to "balance" the raid releases there would always be an argument for it being unfair because of x, y or z. It is what it is.

Blizzard would have to change their maintainence schedule as well. Lets not forget US had 6-8 hours of maintainence where EU had 0.

NA's 16 hour head start was more like 10. Bug Blockers probably reduces that by another couple hours as well depending on bug and how long it takes to fix.

This tier would of mattered Limit beat method so badly if they started the exact same time and Timezones had no effect the result would of been same if not worse

[ping-pong]

Already a 5% nerf. You guys get it easy now.

[Battlebeard]

Then this is a you problem, because not even Method considered it an 'advantage' for Limit this tier. Particularly because some of the bosses were bugged for NA and they hit walls until they were fixed. Any advantage they had did not last.

Also, the later bosses can't be tested in PTR so Method did not just "have it down to details" before the raid was released. We watched live as Method adjusted their strategies for Ilgy, Carapace and N'zoth after Limit got their kills. Limit beat every boss cleaner and quicker than every other guild. Stop trying to downplay their achievement because you're salty. Limit straight outplayed Method. It happens.

No one likes the head start, but the truth is the argument would change if they did a 'global' release anyway. Instead of whining about a head start, people would whine about whoever had the better hours (day raiding vs evening raiding).

Yes, people could whine about hours, but if Blizzard release it like 9am for ET (New york time) which is 3 pm for most of Europe, both sides gets plenty of daytime raiding the same day, and then the guilds gets to decide when to raid, if they want to raid days or nights.

The decisions would be on the guilds and not on Blizzard. Blizzard gotta act as a neutral part here and only focus on a fair release, which this would be.

[FiveDkp]

Yes, people could whine about hours, but if Blizzard release it like 9am for ET (New york time) which is 3 pm for most of Europe, both sides gets plenty of daytime raiding the same day, and then the guilds gets to decide when to raid, if they want to raid days or nights.

The decisions would be on the guilds and not on Blizzard. Blizzard gotta act as a neutral part here and only focus on a fair release, which this would be.

I think your idea is a very unnecessary change. There has been no issue at all with the "headstart" in previous races until now (you know when Limit actually won one).

Method were unfortunately were a large amount behind Limit in the race. Limit was getting it down easily passed method's best attempts on N'Zoth and Scripe as pointed out by another poster used Limit's strategies.

The next excuse will be that NA got to day raid more because it was 9am for them while it was 3pm in EU etc. Always the excuses when Method or Limit gets a world first.

EDIT: Limit won fair and square - used a coach which I thought both guilds were going to use given how effective it was on Za'qul by Max with Darkee.

I actually did propose that question to Sco on how effective it would be to have a raid leader not in the raid but using the different streams. Sco essentially said they'd see how it would play out.

Complexity obviously having the resources GREATLY helped Limit's chances. I think Complexity's involvement really put the extra push into Limit overall. It allowed Max to have the raid leader seat and have appropriate facilities to really push for that world first.

I'd like to see a few other esports orgs trying to have a go at the RWF. Maybe ENCE for Pieces given the Finnish Org. For Australia, I think only Chiefs or Order would be really interested. I'm unsure with any of the other Esports Orgs in America but given where Complexity has gone with it. I think we might see Renegades, Gen G and few other orgs circling other guilds.

[Einsz]

Yes, people could whine about hours, but if Blizzard release it like 9am for ET (New york time) which is 3 pm for most of Europe, both sides gets plenty of daytime raiding the same day, and then the guilds gets to decide when to raid, if they want to raid days or nights.

The decisions would be on the guilds and not on Blizzard. Blizzard gotta act as a neutral part here and only focus on a fair release, which this would be.

Blizzard is just making their game and releasing it around schedule fitting their time. Race to world first is something PLAYERS do with Blizzard product. Blizzard is only making a game. THIS IS NOT BLIZZARD EVENT. Blizzard events are: MDI, some arena pvp crap and they do them fair. Blizzard is not interested in race to world first. If you think you are getting screwed over by 16h differance you can pick up US version of the game and play there. If you are going to complain about lag etc, move to US. Its on YOU not on Blizzard if you want to participate in this.

[Gorsameth]

Yes, people could whine about hours, but if Blizzard release it like 9am for ET (New york time) which is 3 pm for most of Europe, both sides gets plenty of daytime raiding the same day, and then the guilds gets to decide when to raid, if they want to raid days or nights.

The decisions would be on the guilds and not on Blizzard. Blizzard gotta act as a neutral part here and only focus on a fair release, which this would be.

~22.00 in China. Now you can say "**** the chinese" but Blizzard might not share your opinion about throwing a big region under the bus.

[Battlebeard]

Blizzard is just making their game and releasing it around schedule fitting their time. Race to world first is something PLAYERS do with Blizzard product. Blizzard is only making a game. THIS IS NOT BLIZZARD EVENT. Blizzard events are: MDI, some arena pvp crap and they do them fair. Blizzard is not interested in race to world first. If you think you are getting screwed over by 16h differance you can pick up US version of the game and play there. If you are going to complain about lag etc, move to US. Its on YOU not on Blizzard if you want to participate in this.

Of course it's not Blizzards event but it is happening and they know about it. IF Blizzard are smart, they try to take advantage of the event that is the WF race. It attracts a lot of viewers and is obviously good for the company, so the more Blizzard gets involved, more more it will benefit them. Changing release times to make the race more fair is a great start.

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~22.00 in China. Now you can say "**** the chinese" but Blizzard might not share your opinion about throwing a big region under the bus.

That is a future problem, because we gotta be realistic. Currently there is only a race between Limit and Method. A race between NA and EU. Sure, I guess Pieces has a theoretical chance of claiming WF, since they won Crucible, but in the bigger raids with more bosses it's been a Limit/Method race.

When a guild in Asia starts to be a legit threat to world first, then sure, you can involve them. But right now they have not even been close.

[Ophenia]

Of course it's not Blizzards event but it is happening and they know about it. IF Blizzard are smart, they try to take advantage of the event that is the WF race. It attracts a lot of viewers and is obviously good for the company, so the more Blizzard gets involved, more more it will benefit them. Changing release times to make the race more fair is a great start.

There will always be complaints. So let the shit be like it is today and deal with it. Do your own Wowprogress chart if that bothers you though.

[Revamp Man]

It's funny you should say that because in the past all difficulties of the raid used to have an ID and somehow everyone lived with it. Maybe doing that again would encourage more people to join guilds again

Yeah if you were people also played raves because of it and also people complained about it and it was a big deal just recently in a mythic world first race because someone stole the mythic lock out and tried to slow them down it’s not tough I understand that you want to do it again the system is fine how it works now trying to make the game more difficult for the high-end players is a dick move

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Method killed Nzoth in less pulls so I guess they technically got WF! Gz to Method on true WF!

No that’s not how that works also they had stronger essences and they saw how the boss died and limit had fewer pulls in the entire raid overall

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Of course it's not Blizzards event but it is happening and they know about it. IF Blizzard are smart, they try to take advantage of the event that is the WF race. It attracts a lot of viewers and is obviously good for the company, so the more Blizzard gets involved, more more it will benefit them. Changing release times to make the race more fair is a great start.

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That is a future problem, because we gotta be realistic. Currently there is only a race between Limit and Method. A race between NA and EU. Sure, I guess Pieces has a theoretical chance of claiming WF, since they won Crucible, but in the bigger raids with more bosses it's been a Limit/Method race.

When a guild in Asia starts to be a legit threat to world first, then sure, you can involve them. But right now they have not even been close.

And Asian guild started two days later due to reset and they caught up to the world first graders in a couple hours they are legit threat

[Nite92]

College is also different in the US (depending greatly on where you go).

My sister went to a tough private college in the US and went abroad for a semester to the UK.

She was shocked at the difference. Here’s what she had in the us:

Small classes where attendance is required, work due every week, multiple big papers every semester.

In the UK:

Giant class where prof sends out video of lecture for everyone who doesn’t go

Entire grade based on one final paper

Of course, that’s partly why US college is 5x as expensive, but again it’s very different.

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Streaming and more avenues for gamers to make money (remember 4 limit guys are on the Method MDI team) is the reason the US is more competitive now.

Everything outside the game is a non factor and should not be considered, just as in any other (e)sport.

[Revamp Man]

You see the thing is the actual players don’t really give a shit about fixing the lockouts or really care about that 16 hour Headstart in reality it’s all of the people that just watch and see how the game is super easy because the final boss died in a week when in reality they’re going to be progressing on the final boss on heroic for a month the players that are actually affected by the world first race don’t give a shit really but this is just like the mythic plus where it got gutted and you have a ton of restraints because a bunch of Wanabee little whiny assholes decide that there’s something wrong with it and it’s not fair

Message came out and said that they were out played the admit that limit played better they admit that limit ran smoother they admit that limit one so all of the people arguing about it and just calm down because your big bad team super awesome players have admitted that they lost so trying to argue that they one is pointless and you’re only doing it for your own ego