Did the blood elves oppose burning Teldrassil?

[allawyn]

I just realised how similar the events were between the sacking of Silvermoon and the burning of Teldrassil.
Well, the scourge was pure evil, while Sylvanas at least pretended that it was for a good cause.

With the blood elves' mystery, did they oppose the idea, knowing what it's like losing most of their people? Is it ever handled in the game? I haven't played for like 3 years so I've completely missed BfA except for watching YouTube videos by Doronsmovies and Nobbel87.

They never had a chance. I mean, unless you were standing right there, and even then the best Saurfang could do was shout "no"!

[Kallisto]

Never understood why Blizz thought that blood elfs joining the horde was a good thing. Bloof elfs didnt like trolls even though it was the amani that attacked them. The orcs even assaulted silvermoon city, here I get why blood efls would never get into the horde, but meh blizzard has no consistency.

Because joining the alliance while the previous alliance leader was basically "Oh you didn't die in the obvious suicide mission i made to kill you all, you're all under arrest and waiting execution." is pretty much battered wife syndrome.

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Teldrassil wasn't a city, it was an entire territory where the majority of the night elves lived, hence the genocide. It's canon and even explained in the books.

Teldrassil is nothing more than a city and a small village. Burning it is the same as the Allies bombing Dresden or Hamburg or Tokyo or Nagasaki. Actual total war. Which we as a people have been lucky not to see since WW2

[eurojust]

Because joining the alliance while the previous alliance leader was basically "Oh you didn't die in the obvious suicide mission i made to kill you all, you're all under arrest and waiting execution." is pretty much battered wife syndrome.

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Teldrassil is nothing more than a city and a small village. Burning it is the same as the Allies bombing Dresden or Hamburg or Tokyo or Nagasaki. Actual total war. Which we as a people have been lucky not to see since WW2

Did you read what i just wrote before posting? Was 99% of the german population concentrated in Dresden? No. And again Teldrassil isn't a city. It's an entire zone where the majority of Night Elves moved after warcraft 3 since Tyrande was so scared of fighting the Horde.
Oh and Garithos had almost nothing to do with the Alliance of WoW and didn't kill one Blood Elf. However the Orcs did slaughter the High Elves and would have genocided them if it wasn't for the Alliance to rescue them. So yea, the Blood Elves have battered wife syndrome.

[Kallisto]

Did you read what i just wrote before posting? Was 99% of the german population concentrated in Dresden? No. And again Teldrassil isn't a city. It's an entire zone where the majority of Night Elves moved after warcraft 3 since Tyrande was so scared of fighting the Horde.
Oh and Garithos had almost nothing to do with the Alliance of WoW and didn't kill one Blood Elf. However the Orcs did slaughter the High Elves and would have genocided them if it wasn't for the Alliance to rescue them. So yea, the Blood Elves have battered wife syndrome.

Majority/99% of the night elf population wasn't concentrated in Teldrassil. They are spread from as far north as Winterspring to as far south as Feralas, half a damn continent. This whole they all live in Teldrassil is a myth, there's nothing in the lore that states this.

Garithos was as the highest-ranking lord of Lordaeron it made him in charge of the alliance, more so than Anduin is now as king of Stormwind, his word was law. His word was "Kill Kael'thas and his blood elves for not dying in a mission you were supposed to die in you lesser race.".

So yes I did read what you wrote and it sounded like a 16-year-old not knowing lore outside what WoWWiki (the worst of the wow wikipedia style sites) told him trying to debate with people that have gone through every book including the three volumes of the chronicles. Out of their league.

Plus there's something else to bring in. Blizzard own lore states alliance of today is same alliance made for the second war, the horde of today is not the same organization as the horde of WC 1 & 2. So there's no blame on the horde Blood elves joined.

[AcidicSyn]

I'm sure plenty of Blood Elves opposed the ultimate result of the War of Thorns. The ideals of the leaders do not always reflect those of the people. There was at least one Blood Elf in the fighting that wanted nothing more than to slaughter every night elf still breathing until Malf ripped him apart with vines.

[eurojust]

Majority/99% of the night elf population wasn't concentrated in Teldrassil. They are spread from as far north as Winterspring to as far south as Feralas, half a damn continent. This whole they all live in Teldrassil is a myth, there's nothing in the lore that states this.

Yes they were, again it's stated in the book, so that people like you can understand how it's a genocide.

Garithos was as the highest-ranking lord of Lordaeron it made him in charge of the alliance, more so than Anduin is now as king of Stormwind, his word was law. His word was "Kill Kael'thas and his blood elves for not dying in a mission you were supposed to die in you lesser race.".

Again The Alliance Remnants don't have a lot to do with the current WoW alliance.

So yes I did read what you wrote and it sounded like a 16-year-old not knowing lore outside what WoWWiki (the worst of the wow wikipedia style sites) told him trying to debate with people that have gone through every book including the three volumes of the chronicles. Out of their league.

Then why are you comparing this with Dresden? I perfectly explained how it was a genocide (not that i needed to do that since the lore states it). Thanks for the insult btw.

Plus there's something else to bring in. Blizzard own lore states alliance of today is same alliance made for the second war, the horde of today is not the same organization as the horde of WC 1 & 2. So there's no blame on the horde Blood elves joined.

Why? Because Thrall said so? Ok, i can give you that, but it doesn't change the fact that the Orcs who slaughtered the High Elves later joined the "new" Horde of Thrall, that they worship Orgrim (you know the guy who lead the Horde during Warcraft 2) and that their culture is pretty much the same.
Meanwhile i don't think that there are many Garithos soldiers in the current Alliance since they were killed by Sylvanas. The closet people from them are the Forsaken.

[Schattenlied]

I seem to recall a certain Kalimdor port town being bombed with Blood Elf involvement. It's not that much different, really.

Burning a capital city and several smaller settlements that are all contained with no escape routes vs burning one port town...

Yeah, it's really different.

[Varodoc]

Burning a capital city and several smaller settlements that are all contained with no escape routes vs burning one port town...

Yeah, it's really different.

I think you're both referring to Theramore? In which case, I just wanted to point out that it wasn't actually a town, it was a large city, as we can see in WC3, and it had a lot of citizens, since it was founded by refugees coming from most northern kingdoms, including Lordaeron and Quel'thalas. It might have not been an entire kingdom, but it was still a pretty horrible war crime.

Also I am pretty sure it was just that blood elf dude who was involved in the Fall of Theramore, I don't think Theron liked what Garrosh was about to do. Don't quote me for truth though.

[Moonrage]

They should, since it's genocide of innocent civilians and any race should find that despicable. Both Theron and Thalyssra were at a crossroads of sorts after the Burning of Teldrassil and didn't really know what to do, with Thalyssra opting to follow Theron's judgement.

Yet neither had any problems with Teldrassil being blighted after the burning. Even the Tauren, who have a great deal of respect for nature, didn't say much of it.

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Does it matter? It'll never be addressed.

Some Blood Elves were fine with it (Lorash) because of what the Night Elves did to them. Others probably weren't.

What exactly did the Night Elves do to the Blood Elves? All I can recall were the few skirmishes in Eversong Woods and Ghostlands.

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The original plan was to invade the city and force everyone to surrender. No one, not even Nathanos, nor Saurfang, planned to burn it.

Anyway, most likely no, the Night Elves were still reeling of the Highborne's arcane "degeneracy" (that's why most Night Elves still hate their Highborne and High Elf allies despite all of them in the same Alliance, except Tyrande probably); and the Blood Elves obviously would return the favor.

Best example I can provide is Lorash "I hate Night Elves because they exiled us" Sunbeam and Lady "I hate Night Elves because they are hugging their trees while we fight the evil" Liadrin

Lorash was such a lame character. "The Night Elves exiled us for breaking rules we damn well knew, but I'm still salty about it." Yet he has no problem working together with Orcs who invaded Silvermoon and allied themselves with the arch nemesis of the High (and now Blood) Elves. Bad storytelling at its finest.

As for Liadrin, I can't wait til she bites the dust. She's so annoying.

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Nope. Not a genocide. Just taking down an enemy city. Orgrim or Genn were actually intending to genocide.
That was not the point here. A warcrime? Meh the night elves would not have surrendered. So it would ensure them to lose a a powerfull stronghold. Weakening them and the alliance enought to secure the horde. So that was not a destruction "unnecessary". The zone could not have been taken. With demigod malfurion alive it cannot work.
But hey, wow losses does not make sense because of the rule of cool. So the end result of all that was nothing.

Night elves were still powerfull enought to fight the horde without any stronghold. They could even be used as thenmain suicide squad by the alliance. Malfurion could rampage freely. The alliance had no problem taking care of the refugees. And no problem to attack the complete opposite of the world.

So who cares?
Night elves just lost a tree.

It's called genocide multiple times in the novels.

[Miseration]

It's a war crime, and here it's not even a city here but an entire zone where almost all of the nelves citizen lived (hence the genocide).

That tree had it coming.

[Newname1234567890]

In the War of Thorns there was that one Blood Elf who REALLY hated the Night Elves. Not sure how common place that feeling is. So maybe some actively wanted it?

[Varodoc]

Yet neither had any problems with Teldrassil being blighted after the burning. Even the Tauren, who have a great deal of respect for nature, didn't say much of it.

It comes down to Blizzard's writing not properly showing the emotional impact such an event would have. When you look at both Sin'dorei and Tauren, while they are not in the best relationship with the Kaldorei, it is clear that they would sympathize with genocide, having suffered one themselves (Silvermoon = Darnassus, as was already noted).

[Zaelsino]

We have no idea. I'd lean yes, because I'd like to think the race is capable of introspection and recognising a dire parallel to their own darkest hour, but Blizzard didn't bother giving any of them an opinion except for Lorash, whose reason for supporting the war is so personal that it's hard to generalise from it.

Lor'themar at least admits that he should have acted after Teldrassil, which is something, but we needed to get these sorts of reactions when they were relevant.

[Kithelle]

I think you may have missed the ending of Nazjatar's story. At the end of it, Lor'themar makes it clear that he stands with Saurfang and Thrall's Horde, and hopes his people will be accepting of his decision. While the former Ranger-General may yet command some loyalty within Silvermoon, there's no indication that Lor'themar is unpopular with his people. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that the Regent Lord persuaded most of his people to his side. And like I said, it's not like the Blood Elves are the most warmongering of people. I doubt many supported the burning, even if they stayed loyal to the Warchief's will until later.

So basically after everything was said and done and she committed virtually everything I said except calling the Horde nothing. Jumped on the bandwagon only after it was almost full and ready to take off...

Face it...Blood Elves and most of the other races were complacent till it was plain as day obvious.

[Caerule]

So basically after everything was said and done and she committed virtually everything I said except calling the Horde nothing. Jumped on the bandwagon only after it was almost full and ready to take off...

Face it...Blood Elves and most of the other races were complacent till it was plain as day obvious.

Eh, you're backpaddling your point, while trying to keep it as sharp. You can't have it both ways. Only the Mag'har, Forsaken and Goblins still had their leader on board and on Sylvanas' side of the wall when the "You are all nothing!" moment came. Every other leader stood against Sylvanas.

She may have still had Orgrimmar in her grip until the final moment, but it's not like other leaders hadn't been showing their discontent from the start.

Now, if you wish to argue that the Horde went along for far too long, following Alliance Hatred, Warchief Loyalty and the Last Will of Vol'jin for too long, against what you clearly see as should have been their better moral judgement, then sure, I'd say you have a strong case to make there. A similar case could be made that, without someone successfully making a stand against Sylvanas like Vol'jin did against Garrosh, the Horde took way too long to dare to oppose the Warchief's will. With no one standing up to challenge her, before it was too late.

But that's not really the question of this thread. It's if the Blood Elves were okay with, or opposed to, the burning of Teldrassil. I think I've got a strong leg to stand upon if I state that the Blood Elves are not a warmongering sort, and not much on board with Sylvanas' actions. Lor'themar's breaking point should have come sooner. It was when Baine was to be executed that he first took action against Sylvanas. But he is also the one leader that mentions his intentions to rally his people against Sylvanas. This was well before Saurfang's Horde marched on the gates of Orgrimmar.

[Aeula]

What exactly did the Night Elves do to the Blood Elves? All I can recall were the few skirmishes in Eversong Woods and Ghostlands.

Invaded Quel’thalas when Blood Elves were at their lowest point to sabotage infrastructure they desperately needed to survive. But Lorash was mostly pissed about the Night Elves exiling them since a lot of people he knew died along the way.

[derpkitteh]

Invaded Quel’thalas when Blood Elves were at their lowest point to sabotage infrastructure they desperately needed to survive. But Lorash was mostly pissed about the Night Elves exiling them since a lot of people he knew died along the way.

i still think lorash's donutsteel nature and grudge are the worst thing done to belves since their introduction into wow.

it was better when they were much less long-lived than kaldorei.

[Aresk]

Plus there's something else to bring in. Blizzard own lore states alliance of today is same alliance made for the second war, the horde of today is not the same organization as the horde of WC 1 & 2. So there's no blame on the horde Blood elves joined.

Where in Blizzard lore did Thrall abolish the Horde and then create a new Horde? He was given the mantle of warchief by Orgrim. He was given the Doomhammer by Orgrim. He then led the orcs out of the Eastern Kingdoms, picked up a few trolls before their island was sunk by naga, and allied with the tauren. He has said that the Horde has changed and that the Horde is following a new way (practically beating it into Grom's skull after the Warsong decided demon blood was the best solution to their wood problem), but to say it's a different Horde while the Alliance is the same Alliance is pretty disingenuous. Both have undergone drastic changes from the RTS days (then again, so has the entire lore with all of the retcons that Metzen and others have done).

[Raisei]

I don't think the scourge was pure evil, and nor was Arthas was he a monster? Ya definitely but he thought it was for the greater good just like every force in the damn WoW universe, I think the Burning Legion made it's most formidable opponent when they created him that they could not destroy without our help. Had there been a way to bring the Lich King on our side the game would have ended up being a lot different, imagine a redeemed Arthas with the power to command the damned? No Void anything would ever try taking Azeroth after that lol.

The Scourge itself is not evil because it is 99% mindless zombies controlled by the will of their leader(s). It is just a weapon with no moral inclination. Arthas however, after he picked up Frostmourne lost his soul and became pure evil under the influence of Ner'zhul, he did not just commit crimes to fullfill his purpose, he also did things just for the pleasure of it. Like unleashing his undead on towns full of innocents and forcing his victims to fight for him after their death and kill their own loved ones, like he did with Sylvanas.
I am still unsure how much of this he is responsible for with Frostmourne/Ner'zhul controlling him, but there is no doubt he was evil at that point.

And well, we did end up with the Lich King on our side in the form of Bolvar. He might not be as strong as Arthas but as we have seen he could not even stop a single Banshee, despite sending an army at her.

I'm sorry but this is World of Warcraft, not World of Post-Modern Geneva-Conventioncraft.

In Azeroth everyone knows that when they lose a war they'll be subject to slavery and slaughter, not hugs and forgiveness.

Of course, that explains why everyone was so schocked at the order, even a degenerate like Nathanos and an old warmonger like Saurfang. And I actually think that the Night Elves were insulting the Horde by trying to evacuate people. They should know they have to be slaughtered now, that's the rules.

Guess telling yourself that this is the normal way it goes in this world helps with explaining away how the Horde is complicit in yet another barbaric act of genocide, huh? For the Horde! Let us drink blood from the skulls of elf babies!

You do not need modern conventions to realize that murdering a city full of unarmed civilians is wrong. Conventions do not create an understanding of right and wrong, an understanding of right and wrong creates conventions.

In-universe Garrosh has been accused of war crimes and genocide for less then this and everyone realized how these things are wrong, with the notable exception of, surprise, our favourite psychopath Sylvanas, who no longer has or never had a care about right or wrong and just wanted him dead for her own selfish reasons.

Also, even if we say this is normal, which it isn't, then the genocide made no sense anyway. Taking the tree hostage was the goal of the campaign, because it could be used to keep the Alliance in check. Sylvanas could have literally demanded anything and Anduin would have given it, because he is not the hardass that lets the Elves die. This might have broken the Alliance with Tyrande and the others fighting over how to break free the hostages.
By instead commiting this crime, Sylvanas made sure that the Alliance would be united and out for her blood, so it only makes sense if you WANT to start a major war, which she did.

[Rhlor]

I just realised how similar the events were between the sacking of Silvermoon and the burning of Teldrassil.
Well, the scourge was pure evil, while Sylvanas at least pretended that it was for a good cause.

With the blood elves' mystery, did they oppose the idea, knowing what it's like losing most of their people? Is it ever handled in the game? I haven't played for like 3 years so I've completely missed BfA except for watching YouTube videos by Doronsmovies and Nobbel87.

nobody was in favor of burning the tree