Could something be done to make people tank?

[Exeris]

Came here to say this. Stopped playing several tanks because DPS were impatient and not willing to slow the rythm as a I learned the ropes. Just ticked me off.

They would have to do something weird like making it impossible to communicate in pugs and I'd pick up taking again, or something like an IO score for behaviour maybe. Amazing how many d'heads play games.

[Gomelus]

I would tank if shaman had a tank spec, CBA to keep another toon up to speed, I don't play alts.

[Marrilaife]

Tanks have to lead, fk that I cbf.

Yep, I realized that when every pug demands on skitra that "tanks decide which boss is correct" and the rest of the raid is absolved of any responsibility. Fuck that. I'm not joining any pug where I have to do skitra as a tank.

Btw on my guild run we have raid leader (who is a ranged dps) mark the clones and anyone from opposite colour group can call. Usually it's the tank but if tank can't find it fast and someone is faster, they can call it. I don't know how suddenly pugs came to the conclusion tanks are meant to be responsible for this crap.

I think that's what bothers me the most. "You tank deal with it I don't need to do anything" <- typical pug mentality.

[Heldamon]

What if a tank specced character can do shitloads of dps on players but not npcs, and get great amount of damage from players but not npcs

[arkanon]

Most tanking complaints come from pugs, and i can explain why very easily. When a dps makes a mistake, it often goes unnoticed. When a healer makes a mistake, MAYBE another healer might notice, but probably not. When a tank makes a mistake, the entire fucking universe notices and they are put on blast.

In guild groups and more serious runs, this isnt a big deal - everyone is working together towards a common goal which would usually be progression through the content as a group, and typically are all communicating with each other in Disc or similar. Pugs tend to have a far more single minded / selfish approach to raiding - they want to get to X boss as fast as possible and hope that Y item drops - they have no interest in the group as a whole, and many simply leave after "their" boss is down.

I also have noticed a far more diverse group of players attempting various content in pugs - mythic raiders clearing heroic and even normal in pugs, either on their main or on extremely geared alts, mixed with newer players just getting into raiding, creating a huge disparity in expectations. Some players are just happy to be in the raid and working on bosses, others will rage and throw a tantrum if there is a single wipe. This part cannot be changed, obviously, but it does create a volatile situation where the tanks do tend to receive most of the abuse.

In short, tanks mistakes are very, very obvious, and as such are easy fodder for frustrated players after a wipe. Expectations on tanks are absolutely higher than any other member of a pug, and there is no comfortable learning environment for new tanks outside of a guild / community group.

HOWEVER, as i have said before, the only way to increase the number of people actively playing tanking specs is to make them FUN again - but that is subjective. To be fair though, i dont see a lot of people saying they enjoy the current style of tanking, and i certainly dont - although i do almost exclusively play tanking specs, both in group content, and in the world.

[kaid]

The only time I've played tank, it was when the DK blood a lot of damage from revenge, it was a lot of fun, until he was nerfed and I stopped playing it.
There is a big problem here, and there are very few tanks, because they are very boring and slow killing ... is there any solution? I have a solution, eliminate the tank role. Maybe they should invent a new role, maybe support or dps / tank ..or protector, something but that does not imply that you do less damage than a dps ... is that, what more hays are dps, precisely because they are fun.Every time there are fewer tanks, because they are increasingly boring.

One big issue is the lack of need for tanks end game. The amount of tanks you need compared to everything else at high levels is low. Take raids you need 2 or so tanks, 5 or so healers and then the rest DPS. So if you are not number one or 2 tank you are playing a different spec. Also people hate tanks that are not fully geared and in need of nothing so if you try pug raiding or mythics if you are in content you actually need gear from you are opening yourself up for a LOT of abuse.

So the weird thing at lower levels you have a lack of tanks because most realize unless they want to solo or just rando queue pugs and take that kind of abuse there is just no real final option for tank spec for the vast majority of players.

[Marrilaife]

Also people hate tanks that are not fully geared and in need of nothing so if you try pug raiding or mythics if you are in content you actually need gear from you are opening yourself up for a LOT of abuse.

Pretty much. Only in 8.3 Blizzard decided to finally buff tank aggro, in 8.2 they had this "amazing" idea to tie threat buff to neck levels which what exactly accomplishes? Geared tanks do more aggro which they probably were already fine with, while undergeared ones with low neck levels were left in the gutter.

Low geared dps can get themselves carried in dungeons and raids, low geared tank ends up not holding aggro in dungeons, in raids having the other tank rip aggro from him, it's a general miserable position to be "tank in gearing process".

Also in many cases pug healers want to fuck around and not actually bother healing undergeared tank in "easy content". No kidding, every time I was doing lower key on an alt and invite a pug resto druid he's more in cat form than actually healing, just because "it's not a high key" and they saw this crap on streams, no matter whether the group is overgeared and doesn't need any healing, or is undergeared and we'd benefit more from people not having to worry about being constantly half hp than from his extra dps which is usually 1/5th of a dpser.

One reason last time I invited holy priest over 3 resto druids into m+ pug, yeah rdruids are good and meta but I cba with another catweave Jdotb wannabe. I'm inviting you to heal. I'm on an alt that doesn't have 460+ ilvl and actually needs healing.

Bonus points for healers going around pulling for the tank because they're "bored" and when shit hits the fan and tank can't pick aggro on all the extras or dies from having more mobs than he's comfortable to handle, he gets flamed for being slow and mana sponge. People defo don't want to deal with a tank who's still learning.

[SirCowdog]

came back to this thread and "happy" to see a few key points...

1) - less timed content to get away from rush rush
2) - making tanking feel like tanking, not DPS with extra armor/shield
3) - the community has killed many peoples desire to pug as a tank

I think 3 would partially be fixed via the first.. if tanks have time to pull, and a few extra mobs don't ruin a key the community might be more forgiving.

I don't think. #1 will help. Even before M+ dps were already in the "go go go" mindset.

As much as I think the example of cata heroics having to be explained to DPS, there's no way around training the community to be better without some initial teething phase.

Entitled little shits that want to ignore everything and blame everyone but themselves are going to have to "git gud" or suffer the consequences of not getting runs.

[arkanon]

I don't think. #1 will help. Even before M+ dps were already in the "go go go" mindset.

As much as I think the example of cata heroics having to be explained to DPS, there's no way around training the community to be better without some initial teething phase.

Entitled little shits that want to ignore everything and blame everyone but themselves are going to have to "git gud" or suffer the consequences of not getting runs.

Yeah, this is all pretty much spot on. I play all specs and roles, so don't think I'm ONLY a tank or that I hate dps, however, even in 5mans there is a very real issue with DPS having zero responsibility. Basdically, DPS can make endless mistakes and no one gives a shit, and the grp continues.

Tank fucks up once? WW3. And again, yes, the gogogo existed forever, but my first distinnct memory of it being really common was the icc 5mans that released with the raid - I won't forget the HoR wipes because DPS couldn't keep it in their pants and stay behind the damn corner.

It really is a community issue, but I believe blizzard could do more to make the gameplay more enjoyable.

[SirCowdog]

Yeah, this is all pretty much spot on. I play all specs and roles, so don't think I'm ONLY a tank or that I hate dps, however, even in 5mans there is a very real issue with DPS having zero responsibility. Basdically, DPS can make endless mistakes and no one gives a shit, and the grp continues.

Tank fucks up once? WW3. And again, yes, the gogogo existed forever, but my first distinnct memory of it being really common was the icc 5mans that released with the raid - I won't forget the HoR wipes because DPS couldn't keep it in their pants and stay behind the damn corner.

It really is a community issue, but I believe blizzard could do more to make the gameplay more enjoyable.

Halls of Reflection is a good example. Because eventually groups figured out how easy it was to just sit in the corner, after intially trying to run all over the place.

[arkanon]

Halls of Reflection is a good example. Because eventually groups figured out how easy it was to just sit in the corner, after intially trying to run all over the place.

Yeah, and i think its a perfect example of one of the issues tanks face - DPS in a massive rush firing off their multi shots while actively making things substantially harder for the group, all while yelling at the tank to "hurry up" while in the middle of a scripted / timed event.

[SirCowdog]

Yeah, and i think its a perfect example of one of the issues tanks face - DPS in a massive rush firing off their multi shots while actively making things substantially harder for the group, all while yelling at the tank to "hurry up" while in the middle of a scripted / timed event.

I think it's also a good contrast between cata heeoics, where rather than letting the community grow accustomed to the dungeon mechanics, they caved to complaints and nerfed.

That was a massive mistake, amd I think if the community ia ever going to be trained away from "go go go"(and all the crap that comes with it), future content must contain more responsibilities for DPS, and blizzard must not nerf it when complaints from lazy entitled players start rolling in.

[arkanon]

I think it's also a good contrast between cata heeoics, where rather than letting the community grow accustomed to the dungeon mechanics, they caved to complaints and nerfed.

That was a massive mistake, amd I think if the community ia ever going to be trained away from "go go go"(and all the crap that comes with it), future content must contain more responsibilities for DPS, and blizzard must not nerf it when complaints from lazy entitled players start rolling in.

I honestly didn't know there was the level of outrage over the difficulty until after the nerfs. I played almost exclusively with guildies and we really enjoyed the dungeons.

Maybe it was horrible with pugs, I know the one with the two beams you needed to stand it was amusing right through the expac, but I just wasn't aware of the "issue".

[Nite92]

The only time I've played tank, it was when the DK blood a lot of damage from revenge, it was a lot of fun, until he was nerfed and I stopped playing it.
There is a big problem here, and there are very few tanks, because they are very boring and slow killing ... is there any solution? I have a solution, eliminate the tank role. Maybe they should invent a new role, maybe support or dps / tank ..or protector, something but that does not imply that you do less damage than a dps ... is that, what more hays are dps, precisely because they are fun.Every time there are fewer tanks, because they are increasingly boring.

Someone needs to "lead" the dungeon, move the boss, pick up adds. These are the jobs people are afraid of, because mistakes here have a larger impact than 1 dps dying (atleast most of the time).

[arkanon]

Someone needs to "lead" the dungeon, move the boss, pick up adds. These are the jobs people are afraid of, because mistakes here have a larger impact than 1 dps dying (atleast most of the time).

You lump in "lead" the dungeon with moving the boss and picking up adds - those things are not mutually exclusive.

[Zarvel]

Because Tanks are innocent angels that never do anythign wrong or hateful to others, right? It goes both ways.

That usually only happens when that tank has seen enough shit to last him a while. Unless the tank as a person IRL is just a jerk for the sake of being a jerk, most tanks tend not to say anything past the occasional "we're about to get to x" or "we're about to do y" and then ask the group to follow. Some don't even speak, lol.

Very rarely have I seen a non-russian tank or one who isn't from Kazzak-EU be a shitlord in group content. I have nothing against russians, they're chill neighbors as far as countries go, but dayum, they need to get their act together when they join non-russian groups. And Kazzak, well it's kazzak, the most toxic realm outside Draenor on EU, so it's expected that pugs with any decent character progress in m+ or raids will be dicks to others not on their realm. Tanks from other realms have been chill for me so far in the last 5 years of group content. Then again, there's the tanks from Ysondre and other spanish realms on EU that just suck and are toxic just for added measure. Again, nothing against spain or spanish people, but dayum man, it's either a god level spanish player in group or a shit tier one, never one in between.

I'm probably gonna get an infraction for this post, but meh, some things just have to be said.

- - - Updated - - -

Yep, I realized that when every pug demands on skitra that "tanks decide which boss is correct" and the rest of the raid is absolved of any responsibility. Fuck that. I'm not joining any pug where I have to do skitra as a tank.

Btw on my guild run we have raid leader (who is a ranged dps) mark the clones and anyone from opposite colour group can call. Usually it's the tank but if tank can't find it fast and someone is faster, they can call it. I don't know how suddenly pugs came to the conclusion tanks are meant to be responsible for this crap.

I think that's what bothers me the most. "You tank deal with it I don't need to do anything" <- typical pug mentality.

While you're not wrong in your sentiment, the specific example you gave of Skitra, i'd side with the group on that one. It turns out, in Normal and Heroic, both tanks are placed in different realms on the illusion phase . every. time.
That literally makes you the most ideal to deal with the call out because no one else needs to get involved and cause confusion.

[Nite92]

You lump in "lead" the dungeon with moving the boss and picking up adds - those things are not mutually exclusive.

Yes i know. I meant that people do not disklike tanking itself, they don't want to be able to wipe the raid/fail the dungeon with a simple mistake. So I came up with examples of what people are afraid of, and thus do not want to tank. A dps has to go out of his way to wipe a competent group in a m+10-15, while a tank can do that by making a single mistake.

[Naramag]

It's not about tanking in mythic or raids or something. A tank on that Level should know what he needs to do. I was speaking for tanks that are still in the learning curve. When you get hassled in your first few dungeons, because you are learning to tank and need some more reaction time and make mistakes, you soon stop tanking. Of course, you can put the worst offenders on ignore, so the next dungeon may be a bit more pleasant. But let's be honest, by the time you put all those on ignore you don't want to pug with, you need an extra server for the list and are on m+ over 9000...

When I tank (especially when I am telling everyone from the start that I am new to this), I don't expect to be the leader or everyone to accommodate me. I just want people to show a bit common courtesty and not being total a$$holes.

[SirCowdog]

It's not about tanking in mythic or raids or something. A tank on that Level should know what he needs to do. I was speaking for tanks that are still in the learning curve. When you get hassled in your first few dungeons, because you are learning to tank and need some more reaction time and make mistakes, you soon stop tanking. Of course, you can put the worst offenders on ignore, so the next dungeon may be a bit more pleasant. But let's be honest, by the time you put all those on ignore you don't want to pug with, you need an extra server for the list and are on m+ over 9000...

When I tank (especially when I am telling everyone from the start that I am new to this), I don't expect to be the leader or everyone to accommodate me. I just want people to show a bit common courtesty and not being total a$$holes.

The problem is that the same DPS who screw up, and otherwise conduct themselves with epic-level asshattery, will go on to act the same way in raids or elsewhere. Even if a tank "on that level" already knows what to do, any slight non-perfection will garner the same sort of responses.

That type of behavior needs to actively be trained out of the community. And no, ignore isn't a great solution. First, because they just go on to act the same way in the next group. Second because it literally doesn't effect matchmaking for LFD or LFR. You might not see them in your manual searches or group listings, but they're still there, being the same toxic shits they were before you ignored them.

[Naramag]

You're absolutely right, but what could be done about that? That attitude is almost everywhere. Not only in WoW, it's in the whole gaming community. I have rarely seen a community for a game where the overall conduct, the bahaviour and treatment of each other can be called good and nice.
Just look at this forum. Threads are not getting started for a genuine questions, but either to provoke one part of the community or to get the own opinions confirm by another part. And if an opinion is shared, that opnion get's suddenly treated as fact.
It's cool to criticise everything, but on the other hand, any critical question is viewed as personal assault. The anonymity of the internet brings out the worst of people and I don't think there is anything that could change that, sadly.