"These women fight with unmatched savagery!... They are... perfect warriors!"

[Feanoro]

That's my point.

The whole standard of them being these savage perfect warriors is Grom's quote. Its not in the game. Its not even in the lore. The sentinels themselves from the get go were portrayed as skilled, mostly archers, well trained and prone to careful planning. They looked savage and that was about it. Even their way of speaking was calm and thoughtful. No shouting, no overt anger: just careful, calm talking and some rather held back threats.

Savagery doesn't mean howling, raging berserker. They're portrayed as disciplined.

Additionally, you seem to be mixing gameplay with lore. What fun would it be to play a campaign where you effortlessly sweep aside all in your path? Establishing the orcs as a credible threat to the Night Elves doesn't imply they're weak, unless of course Murlocs slapping the Darkspears around means they're weak and worthless too.

[Yarathir]

That's my point.

The whole standard of them being these savage perfect warriors is Grom's quote. Its not in the game. Its not even in the lore. The sentinels themselves from the get go were portrayed as skilled, mostly archers, well trained and prone to careful planning. They looked savage and that was about it. Even their way of speaking was calm and thoughtful. No shouting, no overt anger: just careful, calm talking and some rather held back threats.

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If you played WC3 recently you may notice that Tyrande has a tendency to act before she thinks. Remember how she freed Illidan and then got mad that he did the exact thing everyone knew he would? Or her refusal to ally with humans even though the alternate was clearly death. Or how she blew up a bridge as she stood on it.

How about the wider aspect of the Legion invading and her armies complete failure to do any form of reconnaissance, scouting, or information gathering?

Tyrande, since WC3, has been portrayed as rather compulsive and not prone to planning.



Mind you, I wish Night Elves were portrayed more positively for sure. But I never got the "Tyrande's such a great military leader" bit when even in WC3 she wasn't portrayed as a skilled leader; the exact opposite in fact, she was prepared to throw the world away due to anger and killed her own soldiers for following their orders. Hell, leadership quiet literally was thrust upon her with no prior experience; a thing she didn't earn, and she only had one confirmed conflict under her belt: The war of the Satyr, which was itself a hot mess where the Druids seemed to have done most of the heavy lifting.

She's like Garrosh; fantastic champion, awful leader.

You can say what you want, but the bottomline is that there were results. Nobody is claiming Tyrande is the perfect leader, or that the night elves are meant to be omnipotent and should be able to steamroll the entire Horde alone, but we don't need to go to either extreme. The fact of the matter is that night elves are a joke in WoW, and the fact that a human king raised as a gladiator and apparently an avatar of a wolf spirit has to tutor the night elf leader on things like patience is just rubbing it in even further how much of a joke night elves are in WoW.

[eurojust]

She's like Garrosh; fantastic champion, awful leader. And I wish they would do more with that. She should be like, the Alliance's trump card. She should be the one causing the members of the Horde to piss themselves in fear: not Jaina.

Tyrande wasn't mad about Illidan, it's Malfurion who decided to ban him. I agree that it was dumb for her to not contradict her husband, but back in wc3 it was the men who lead, and Tyrande going against Malfurion by freeing Illidan was like an act of rebellion. Back then it was obvious that the wardens only obeyed to Malfurion and Cenarius, and WoW retconned that later because "muh faction leader has every right, and every race must be streamlined". The Humans were with the Orcs, cutting the trees of Ashenvale and they just had killed Cenarius. Her first mission is to protect Ashenvale and the druids sleeping. Keep in mind that indeed the Night Elves back then were savages, cut from the rest of the world.
And it's implied that she wasn't a bad leader as she fought during the Wota. Yes she put her life at risk by defending her warriors and the blood elves. What's the matter here? You want characters to be gods perfect at everything? Would make a boring story.

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Well, that's curious, considering how hard Blizzard tries to be woke nowadays, yet the one non-evil society that is dominated by female warriors first and foremost are eternally pitiable sandbags there to make the Horde look powerful time and again.

You'd think if they really wanted to sell fake female empowerment, they'd take advantage of the night elves and at least, I dunno.. make them halfway competent?

Back in Wc3, it seemed that the Night Elves were a patriarchal society. Especially when you take a look at the concept art with the men having a harem of females and giving them orders by telepathy.
For exemple, Maiev almost ignores Tyrande while she worships Malfurion.

[Martymark]

And then those "perfect warriors" got beat up by some red skinned peons.

[mvaliz]

He said they were perfect because they mix savagery and technique, something Grom did himself...

...guess we're just hand-waving away that whole "Drinking the demon blood to increase our strength and power" concept?

[Moonrage]

Back in Wc3, it seemed that the Night Elves were a patriarchal society. Especially when you take a look at the concept art with the men having a harem of females and giving them orders by telepathy.
For exemple, Maiev almost ignores Tyrande while she worships Malfurion.

Really?? I've never come across that specific piece of concept art. Very interesting, I should look it up.

Also, Maiev just doesn't like Tyrande. During the War of the Ancients, Maiev was already a senior Priestess of Elune, while Tyrande was just a novice. Seems like she's still salty over the fact that Tyrande was promoted to High Priestess, and she wasn't.

[Toppy]

Savagery doesn't mean howling, raging berserker. They're portrayed as disciplined.

Additionally, you seem to be mixing gameplay with lore. What fun would it be to play a campaign where you effortlessly sweep aside all in your path? Establishing the orcs as a credible threat to the Night Elves doesn't imply they're weak, unless of course Murlocs slapping the Darkspears around means they're weak and worthless too.

I really am not. Lore shows this "side" of them even less than gameplay. Their savage aspect as far as WC3 is concerned was exemplified by their magics, allies, and druids, not by their sentinels who have been consistently been portrayed as an orderly army with a fondness for ambushes.

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You can say what you want, but the bottomline is that there were results. Nobody is claiming Tyrande is the perfect leader, or that the night elves are meant to be omnipotent and should be able to steamroll the entire Horde alone, but we don't need to go to either extreme. The fact of the matter is that night elves are a joke in WoW, and the fact that a human king raised as a gladiator and apparently an avatar of a wolf spirit has to tutor the night elf leader on things like patience is just rubbing it in even further how much of a joke night elves are in WoW.

Not really, under Tyrande's leadership there really haven't been results. There's been stagnation. Under Tyrande has been a single war that they barely got through despite superior everything, and then failing at their one and only job they set upon themselves: Preparing for and dealing with the legion.

Which again, is not something I like. But dont confuse what you want the lore to be portrayed as, with what it's actively been portrayed as.

[enigma77]

The Night Elves just got shafted by Blizzard, all the way back in Vanilla. They wanted them to be a playable race and they couldn't join the Horde, because of the story, so the Alliance was the only logical choice. But the thing is the Night Elves are not like humans and dwarves (mostly peaceful, gentle, civil), they're supposed to be somewhat savage and territorial. That is how they were in Warcraft 3.

They were their own faction in WC3, that's how it should have been in WoW too. A neutral faction, being able to play with both sides. But that would have likely negatively affected gameplay in some way.

[Plehnard]

Back in Wc3, it seemed that the Night Elves were a patriarchal society. Especially when you take a look at the concept art with the men having a harem of females and giving them orders by telepathy.

Where does this "giving them orders" come from? In the Artbook it is mentioned that they communicate thru the females telepathically at meetings because they do not like to speak.

As for the leadership in war: "All night elves worship the Priestess of the moon who leads the sentinel army"

[Yarathir]

Back in Wc3, it seemed that the Night Elves were a patriarchal society. Especially when you take a look at the concept art with the men having a harem of females and giving them orders by telepathy.
For exemple, Maiev almost ignores Tyrande while she worships Malfurion.

Not insinuating that they are truly matriarchal, because I know that's a cliché that is passed around a lot about night elves.

But they are still a society of predominantly female warriors, and the way Blizzard portrays them is as incompetent jobbers. They are almost Team Rocket levels of incapable, and that's if you take away the fact that at least Team Rocket is proactive, while the night elves are just reactive.

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The Night Elves just got shafted by Blizzard, all the way back in Vanilla. They wanted them to be a playable race and they couldn't join the Horde, because of the story, so the Alliance was the only logical choice. But the thing is the Night Elves are not like humans and dwarves (mostly peaceful, gentle, civil), they're supposed to be somewhat savage and territorial. That is how they were in Warcraft 3.

They were their own faction in WC3, that's how it should have been in WoW too. A neutral faction, being able to play with both sides. But that would have likely negatively affected gameplay in some way.

You know, I hate this cliché, too.

There is no practical reason why the night elves should be defanged just to fit in the Alliance, just as there is no reason to smear blood elves and nightborne in muds and tear up their clothes in order for them to fit in the Horde. Maybe Blizzard does treat things that way, but that doesn't mean it's an inevitability, an innate requirement-- it just means Blizzard is incompetent at writing factions that aren't total monoliths and prefers to push their human Alliance fantasy over anything.

If anything, I feel like night elves got nerfed in the first place by making them part of any greater faction, since they were formerly their own faction in terms of strength, yet now they had to become part of a faction, which meant they couldn't keep their former might. But even then, that's not an excuse for just how hard they get shit on in WoW.

[eurojust]

Where does this "giving them orders" come from? In the Artbook it is mentioned that they communicate thru the females telepathically at meetings because they do not like to speak.

My bad. It still mentions the fact that they have harem, that they use their women to speak during the tribal meetings, and that the women hunt and gatherer, so that's maybe why i had this impression. And then you have the game itself, where almost every important decision is taken by Malfurion or Cenarius. They also sleep while the women fight and they only awake them when there's a huge danger. They are like lions. Hence why for me, back in the days, they were more like a patriarchal society.

As for the leadership in war: "All night elves worship the Priestess of the moon who leads the sentinel army"

I don't remember that line from wc3.

[Toppy]

Not insinuating that they are truly matriarchal, because I know that's a cliché that is passed around a lot about night elves.

But they are still a society of predominantly female warriors, and the way Blizzard portrays them is as incompetent jobbers. They are almost Team Rocket levels of incapable, and that's if you take away the fact that at least Team Rocket is proactive, while the night elves are just reactive.

Again, even in WC3 they weren't portrayed as predominantly female warriors. In fact in their campaign when they were mostly female was when they were always caught flat footed and then subsequently beat.

They didn't start having momentum till their men came back, with leadership being shared, though ultimately Malfurion's command was the one that mattered come the alliance. Yes, the women were the ones "awake" and they made a big deal about how THEY were the ones who defended the forest; even though they failed at this utterly. But their society was clearly both male and female being of importance.

It was just that they subverted normal expectations of men being the fighters and women being in a more supportive role. Not so much that the women ruled. That was a CONCEPT that never made it into canon.

[Nurvus]

The quote is quite valid, but maybe not in the way many would like it to be.
It just means that in Grom's eyes, those Night Elven Warriors are all (or more than) he expects of a warrior!

It doesn't speak of their physique or whether they are better soldiers or have a better strategy.

Imagine if he followed up with "if only they were Orcs".

[Zuben]

Even if they are supposedly this badass the game's homogenization of power demands they are at best as skilled as the rest. I mean, your average orc is supposed to be dwarfing the average human, yet we always see grunts on both sides fighting equally. That's the one thing the movie got splendidly right, portraying differences in physicality as well as fighting style and prowess. Had we gotten continuation to the saga we'd probably have received the amazon nelves their fans crave (with glowing teeth if the movie's high elven ambassadors are anything to go by...).

[Yarathir]

Again, even in WC3 they weren't portrayed as predominantly female warriors. In fact in their campaign when they were mostly female was when they were always caught flat footed and then subsequently beat.

They didn't start having momentum till their men came back, with leadership being shared, though ultimately Malfurion's command was the one that mattered come the alliance. Yes, the women were the ones "awake" and they made a big deal about how THEY were the ones who defended the forest; even though they failed at this utterly. But their society was clearly both male and female being of importance.

It was just that they subverted normal expectations of men being the fighters and women being in a more supportive role. Not so much that the women ruled. That was a CONCEPT that never made it into canon.

Thanks for pretty much reiterating my own post back at me.

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Even if they are supposedly this badass the game's homogenization of power demands they are at best as skilled as the rest. I mean, your average orc is supposed to be dwarfing the average human, yet we always see grunts on both sides fighting equally. That's the one thing the movie got splendidly right, portraying differences in physicality as well as fighting style and prowess. Had we gotten continuation to the saga we'd probably have received the amazon nelves their fans crave (with glowing teeth if the movie's high elven ambassadors are anything to go by...).

Which is a fair point. But night elves aren't as skilled as the rest. They're a joke, a punching bag. They're comic relief in how tragically incompetent they are portrayed as, in contrast to gnomes' intentional, whimsical comic relief thematic.

[Powerogue]

I mean everything has to be weighed in relation to the rest of the story. Everyone gets moments of being badasses. For the night elves, it's when fighting on their home turf.



The orcs hadn't encountered night elves before, and ran into this.

Evil as it may have been, the forsaken had the right idea of "burn the trees so they're forced to fight in the open."

[Kithelle]

He said they were perfect because they mix savagery and technique, something Grom did himself, not because they were better than everyone, cause you know, they get streamrolled pretty hard that the demigod had to step in

of course, lets not forget how the elves lost many of their power and immortality after the third war, and if even before they got their ass kicked, its nonsense belive they would be much better

Grant it, of course the NE in general had fallen, but thats blizzard(and players..) fault, adapting then to the alliance made then soft

I'm sure if the Elves had some kind of extra "power" behind them then they would have...took Demonblood Orcs and they still fought.

Now you'd think the Night Elves were weaker Warriors than Gnomes...

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And then those "perfect warriors" got beat up by some red skinned peons.

Yeah...I guess you "forgot" why they had red skin in the first place

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...guess we're just hand-waving away that whole "Drinking the demon blood to increase our strength and power" concept?

Of course they are...wouldn't be a discussion on here without some people "forgetting" facts.

[Kathranis]

Honestly I think a lot of the perception of night elves being "savage warriors" in the WC3 era comes more from artwork depictions than anything; druids fought like wild beasts, Sentinels were like Amazonian warriors, and the demon hunters were brutal edgelords.

It's really not until WoW where the druids shifted to be nature-loving hippies, demon hunters went into exile, and the rest became Elune-worshipping priests. The whole vibe shifted from "warrior race" to "spiritual race."

[Reinhart11]

The Night Elves are pretty much just another example of a race, which story was continued by Blizzard in nonsensical, wasteful ways, which turned the NIght Elves into beings that don't have much in common anymore with their WC 3 incarnation(although they are still somewhat better of compared to Blood Elves, who literally have returned to be High Elves, who in contrast to the High Elves of WC 2 and 3 are way bigger light worshippers though. Because we dearly needed more lightworshipping races in Warcraft). But you can say that in regards to pretty much any current race. Be that Orcs, Worgen, even Tauren(i mean, for what do Taurens stand these days except for extremely peaceful beings who accept a High Chieftain who would sacrifice them all on Anduins altar if it pleases his overlord and would banish them if they dare to fight back, ridiculous) and Humans as well. Humans get so much spotlight and human potential, but only in the form of some garbage main characters. There isn't much left of the different tribes, nations and kingdoms who were in power struggles and conspired against each other before the Orcish Horde came to Azeroth. We don't even have to talk about Dark Spear trolls or now the Dwarven Clans. They couldn't be more boring and homogenized compared to their WC 3 incarnation, although the Darkspear always were the most boring thing i could imagin. Jungle Trolls who don't do, use or practise anything in the open which makes Jungle Trolls strong and interesting. Goblins and Gnomes are done pretty well though. They are probably the only races i enjoyed even in BfA.

[Artelia]

I think first problem with nelves was that they joined Alliance. Same mistake when forsaken and blood elves joined Horde.

Nigh elves , forsaken and belfs can alone fill their own faction but they ended as punching bags for either Alliance or Horde. Wow did this years back..sadly.