Did the blood elves oppose burning Teldrassil?

[Newname1234567890]

nobody was in favor of burning the tree

Beyond large parts of the player base

[Hellobolis]

No one except Saurfang left the Horde because of Teldrassil

Leaving the horde(or alliance for that matter) is suicide, even if you want to leave. you will immediately be annihilated by some other faction.

that's why you see all these rebellions in the horde, they do want change, but the nr1 rule is that none of them can afford to give up the mutual defense treaty.

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It's a war crime, and here it's not even a city here but an entire zone where almost all of the nelves citizen lived (hence the genocide).

no geneva conventions in wow afaik.

and even if they do have, they apparently forgot to put stuff about dark magic, fates worse than death, torture, using souls as fuel, cruel weapons, treatment of prisoners, etc. not to mention both the horde and alliance have committed genocide dozens of times over the years, races like kobolds, centaurs, troggs etc are all systematically eradicated by both factions.

[Aucald]

nobody was in favor of burning the tree

That is (rather unfortunately, IMO) not demonstrably true. Although many were shocked at the development, a significant part of the playerbase lauded the move as rather epic for a variety of reasons. This sentiment was mostly a Horde phenomenon, although not entirely as some Alliance players who dislike Night Elves as a race also heralded the destruction of Teldrassil.

[Unholyground]

nobody was in favor of burning the tree

#blizzardpredictedaustraliafires

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Majority/99% of the night elf population wasn't concentrated in Teldrassil. They are spread from as far north as Winterspring to as far south as Feralas, half a damn continent. This whole they all live in Teldrassil is a myth, there's nothing in the lore that states this.

While not all of them elegy clearly points out that the majority lived in Teldrassil and that it was a whole land not just a city and a town.

[Mehrunes]

It’s confirmed in world that it was very much so a genocide and that the horde had the tree at there mercy. The night elfs were able to fight back because there army wasn’t there during the war of thorns and the horde only killed civilians by bunting the tree.

It's confirmed that it's the opinion of two Alliance characters.

Did you read what i just wrote before posting? Was 99% of the german population concentrated in Dresden? No. And again Teldrassil isn't a city. It's an entire zone where the majority of Night Elves moved after warcraft 3 since Tyrande was so scared of fighting the Horde.
Oh and Garithos had almost nothing to do with the Alliance of WoW and didn't kill one Blood Elf. However the Orcs did slaughter the High Elves and would have genocided them if it wasn't for the Alliance to rescue them. So yea, the Blood Elves have battered wife syndrome.

Did 99% of Night Elves live on Teldrassil? If so, post your sources. While you're at it, post the source for Tyrande moving that 99% of Night Elves there specifically because she was so scared of fighting the Horde because it's the first time I've ever heard about it. Also, Garithos had everything to do with the Alliance of WoW. He was its leader. And had the support of all Alliance members of that time period. Including Gnomereggan which was busy with a war against the Troggs. And him failing his objective doesn't change the fact he and the Alliance attempted that. Also, since when was Horde about to genocide the High Elves and since when were they going to do so if not for Alliance's help when they couldn't do jack shit about Ban'dinoriel?

[Varodoc]

Beyond large parts of the player base

Pretty sure they were just meme'ing.... right?

Like, I doubt the people who were saying stuff like "Sylvanas did nothing wrong, nice Kaldorei barbercue" were being serious, but on the internet you can't take anything for granted.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

It's confirmed that it's the opinion of two Alliance characters.

Unless you have some where that says other wise that’s the lore and given that there’s nothing that contest it it’s the canon until there is.

[Aucald]

Pretty sure they were just meme'ing.... right?

Like, I doubt the people who were saying stuff like "Sylvanas did nothing wrong, nice Kaldorei barbercue" were being serious, but on the internet you can't take anything for granted.

In the world of anonymity the old axiom still applies when it comes to people who state things "ironically" or "for the lulz": you are what you pretend to be.

[mcastillo88]

From what I remember, I think there was some dialogue where essentially they said "this is not good, but now we pretty much have to see where this goes because the alliance is going to retaliate, so lets side eye Sylvanas for bit"

[Mehrunes]

Then why are you comparing this with Dresden? I perfectly explained how it was a genocide (not that i needed to do that since the lore states it). Thanks for the insult btw.

Given how you're still arguing against the definition of the word despite it - and the reasons as to why Teldrassil doesn't meet it - having been pointed out to you numerous times in the past, you didn't "perfectly explain" anything to @Kallisto.

Burning a capital city and several smaller settlements that are all contained with no escape routes vs burning one port town...

Yeah, it's really different.

Except for the part where it isn't all that different because your argument relies on undermining the size and significance of Theramore. Which was, you know, a capital city of an independent state.

What exactly did the Night Elves do to the Blood Elves? All I can recall were the few skirmishes in Eversong Woods and Ghostlands.

I mean, invading their territory when the Blood Elves were already one leg in the grave and while Alliance was pretending to be in diplomatic talks with them about their potential readmission is very much a no no. In case of Lorash it was also the exile of the Highborne because of Malfurion's anti-magic prejudice.

In the War of Thorns there was that one Blood Elf who REALLY hated the Night Elves. Not sure how common place that feeling is. So maybe some actively wanted it?

Technically, he really hated Malfurion in particular.

Eh, you're backpaddling your point, while trying to keep it as sharp. You can't have it both ways. Only the Mag'har, Forsaken and Goblins still had their leader on board and on Sylvanas' side of the wall when the "You are all nothing!" moment came. Every other leader stood against Sylvanas.

Keyword being leader. By Lor'themar's own admission Sylvanas had the loyalty of the people and he wasn't even sure if he'd manage to reach the Blood Elves.

The Scourge itself is not evil because it is 99% mindless zombies controlled by the will of their leader(s). It is just a weapon with no moral inclination. Arthas however, after he picked up Frostmourne lost his soul and became pure evil under the influence of Ner'zhul, he did not just commit crimes to fullfill his purpose, he also did things just for the pleasure of it. Like unleashing his undead on towns full of innocents and forcing his victims to fight for him after their death and kill their own loved ones, like he did with Sylvanas.

What loved ones did Arthas force Sylvanas to kill?

I am still unsure how much of this he is responsible for with Frostmourne/Ner'zhul controlling him, but there is no doubt he was evil at that point.

Blizzard has (unsurprisingly) been thoroughly inconsistent about that.

Of course, that explains why everyone was so schocked at the order, even a degenerate like Nathanos and an old warmonger like Saurfang. And I actually think that the Night Elves were insulting the Horde by trying to evacuate people. They should know they have to be slaughtered now, that's the rules.

Why are people still spreading that nonsense? Nathanos was busy bickering with Saurfang when Sylvanas suddenly changed the plans. She took him by surprise, nothing more. There's nothing in his demeanor at that moment or at any other point in the war indicating he felt remorse over it. Just the opposite, the moment Sylvanas repeated the order and it sunk he got to carrying it out immediately.

You do not need modern conventions to realize that murdering a city full of unarmed civilians is wrong. Conventions do not create an understanding of right and wrong, an understanding of right and wrong creates conventions.

But is there such an understanding there or are you projecting? Given the extremely timid (to say the least) response to Teldrassil among the Horde members, chances are you are projecting.

In-universe Garrosh has been accused of war crimes and genocide for less then this and everyone realized how these things are wrong, with the notable exception of, surprise, our favourite psychopath Sylvanas, who no longer has or never had a care about right or wrong and just wanted him dead for her own selfish reasons.

Most of the charges against Garrosh were various sorts of ridiculous and the entire trial was a farcical kangaroo court. I'm not sure why would you think it's an example in your favor.

Also, even if we say this is normal, which it isn't, then the genocide made no sense anyway. Taking the tree hostage was the goal of the campaign, because it could be used to keep the Alliance in check. Sylvanas could have literally demanded anything and Anduin would have given it, because he is not the hardass that lets the Elves die. This might have broken the Alliance with Tyrande and the others fighting over how to break free the hostages.
By instead commiting this crime, Sylvanas made sure that the Alliance would be united and out for her blood, so it only makes sense if you WANT to start a major war, which she did.

Except that goal of the campaign relied on actually holding the tree, which required a timid population. Which Saurfang completely fucked up. Which Sylvanas pointed out to him and he consequently accepted. The very author of that campaign, its goal included, disagrees with you.

Unless you have some where that says other wise that’s the lore and given that there’s nothing that contest it it’s the canon until there is.

What you said here is neither here nor there to what I actually wrote. An opinion of two Alliance characters is kinda canon by default because they are, you know, characters in the story. But it's nothing more than that. If Anduin thought the sky is green it would be canon that that is his opinion. But it wouldn't suddenly become a fact of the Warcraft universse.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

What you said here is neither here nor there to what I actually wrote. An opinion of two Alliance characters is kinda canon by default because they are, you know, characters in the story. But it's nothing more than that. If Anduin thought the sky is green it would be canon that that is his opinion. But it wouldn't suddenly become a fact of the Warcraft universse.

Unless you have something in the lore that disproves it which we both know doesn’t exist it’s the one and only canon we have. You can make up any thing you want and try and twist events how ever you want but it’s the lore until retconned or disproven.

[Super Dickmann]

Leaving the horde(or alliance for that matter) is suicide, even if you want to leave. you will immediately be annihilated by some other faction.

that's why you see all these rebellions in the horde, they do want change, but the nr1 rule is that none of them can afford to give up the mutual defense treaty.

That's true up to a point, but nobody ever brings it up in that fashion. There is no policy disagreement on Teldrassil from anyone on the lower rungs. Everyone is gung-ho for the war effort.

@Caerule

This is false. The majority of the Horde stand by Sylvanas up to the end when it comes to the common soldier - it is stated repeatedly that Sylvanas has majority popular support both in 8.2.5 and 8.3, with 8.3 stating that she's growing stronger and is near victory, that Anduin has only troops left for one attack, that Saurfang's followers are 'few' and so forth. Only Gallywix and Geya'rah were loyal of the leaders, but of the people, the majority were loyal to Sylvanas up to the point where she called them dickheads and flew off. What NPCs there are there is immaterial, both because you later see blood elves, goblins and Forsaken among the loyalists, that you see grunts willing to kill Saurfang and Thrall without a second thought in the Underhold, but also because that kind of poor reasoning would also put you in a state where you must argue that Bob went to Orgrimmar with zero blood elves following him since in-game it's only him and some High elf-colored ballistae present. Everyone from Alleria to Saurfang to Anduin state in no uncertain terms that Sylvanas has the largest force and that it's now or never in terms of taking her out.

[yamix]

No one except possibly Sylvanas/Nathanos knew it was going to result in burning and not capture. It's why everyone, including many Horde players, were pissed when Sylvanas appears to have a temper tantrum and burns it down. It was a whole thing. She tells you early that the goal is capture as a player.

We don't get a chance to hear initial reactions, and at that point I imagine everyone is worried about retaliation and their own people.

[Mehrunes]

Unless you have something in the lore that disproves it which we both know doesn’t exist it’s the one and only canon we have. You can make up any thing you want and try and twist events how ever you want but it’s the lore until retconned or disproven.

You're repeatedly not even attempting to actually argue against what I said while at the same time pretending you have a point. That is... a tactic, I guess. Utterly ineffective one but you do you. Me pointing out that characters in lore hold an opinion is not me "trying and twisting events however I want". It's me pointing out how they are. That it's their opinion is indeed lore which if you actually bothered to read what you're "replying" to I'm not even remotely denying. Just the opposite, I'm not arguing otherwise. You reading into it more than actually exists isn't an argument. And even if it was more than an opinion of Anduin and some Night Elf (I can't recall which one specifically), which it is not, Golden and her (potential, in this case) ineptitude do not get to redefine extremely specific legal terms. And the concept of language itself takes priority over anything else.

[Specialka]

You're repeatedly not even attempting to actually argue against what I said while at the same time pretending you have a point. That is... a tactic, I guess. Utterly ineffective one but you do you. Me pointing out that characters in lore hold an opinion is not me "trying and twisting events however I want". It's me pointing out how they are. That it's their opinion is indeed lore which if you actually bothered to read what you're "replying" to I'm not even remotely denying. Just the opposite, I'm not arguing otherwise. You reading into it more than actually exists isn't an argument. And even if it was more than an opinion of Anduin and some Night Elf (I can't recall which one specifically), which it is not, Golden and her (potential, in this case) ineptitude do not get to redefine extremely specific legal terms. And the concept of language itself takes priority over anything else.

Funny you give advices to others but do not apply them to yourself.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You're repeatedly not even attempting to actually argue against what I said while at the same time pretending you have a point. That is... a tactic, I guess. Utterly ineffective one but you do you. Me pointing out that characters in lore hold an opinion is not me "trying and twisting events however I want". It's me pointing out how they are. That it's their opinion is indeed lore which if you actually bothered to read what you're "replying" to I'm not even remotely denying. Just the opposite, I'm not arguing otherwise. You reading into it more than actually exists isn't an argument. And even if it was more than an opinion of Anduin and some Night Elf (I can't recall which one specifically), which it is not, Golden and her (potential, in this case) ineptitude do not get to redefine extremely specific legal terms. And the concept of language itself takes priority over anything else.

There is nothing to argue against your doing the equivalent of saying climate change being real is just the option of scientist. Nothing exist in the lore to contradict it being a genocide past that your musings are irrelevant to me.

[Moonrage]

Invaded Quel’thalas when Blood Elves were at their lowest point to sabotage infrastructure they desperately needed to survive. But Lorash was mostly pissed about the Night Elves exiling them since a lot of people he knew died along the way.

So that's the worst thing the Night Elves have done to the Blood Elves? The Orcs literally raided their way into Quel'thalas and allied themselves with the ancient enemy of the High Elves, but they're all buddy buddies now.

Also, the original punishment for practicing arcane magic after the Sundering, was death. Tyrande and Malfurion actually did the merciful thing by exiling the Highborne. Most of the Highborne were happy to leave anyway.

[Newname1234567890]

Pretty sure they were just meme'ing.... right?

Like, I doubt the people who were saying stuff like "Sylvanas did nothing wrong, nice Kaldorei barbercue" were being serious, but on the internet you can't take anything for granted.

I mean i accept its objectively an evil action. But i also really hate Elves in fantasy media so ....

[Ardenaso]

I'm sorry but this is World of Warcraft, not World of Post-Modern Geneva-Conventioncraft.

In Azeroth everyone knows that when they lose a war they'll be subject to slavery and slaughter, not hugs and forgiveness.

So that's why there's a book literally named War Crimes and it's one of the most pivotal points in lore