Did the blood elves oppose burning Teldrassil?

[Varodoc]

Christie Golden's very special touch to the genre, I admit.

It's ridiculously bad writing from a thematic point of view though and shows complete lack of understanding of:
a) history
b) the setting of Azeroth
c) the origin of 'war crimes' as a concept

It is your own choice if you wish to adhere to Christie Golden's interpretations of the world, which are frankly extremely out-of-place, forcing modern liberal ideologies into a genre that never had them before, but I personally reject them as unsuitable for the genre.

The idea of "war crime" existed since WC3, and even the orcs adopted it. They settled in a wasteland to atone for their sins in Stormwind.

[Varodoc]

Can you source that?

The Shattering:

What troubled him most were the good of his people, of the Horde as a whole, and the unhappiness of the elements. His people were clamoring for more wood to build homes, but the very world itself seemed troubled. He had chosen Durotar for the exact reasons he had spoken—because it enabled his people to atone for the harm they had done, and because this land had toughened and strengthened them. But he had never anticipated that so many rivers would dry up; that so much of what little forest there was would be denuded by a war that, while utterly necessary, was also utterly damaging.

Also:

Murmurs rippled throughout the hall. Cairne looked at him with narrowed eyes, no doubt wondering why Thrall was choosing to remind his people that Durotar was a difficult land at best. He nodded almost imperceptibly to his old friend, reassuring him that he knew what he was doing.

“I did not (he did not take a more fertile land), because we had wronged this world. And yet, we were here in it, we had a right to live. To find a homeland. I chose a place that we could make our own—a land that asked of us all we could give. Living here has done much to cleanse us of the curse that so damaged us as a people. It has made us even stronger, hardier—more orclike than living in a soft land ever would.”

[Varodoc]

Author: Christie Golden

Mhmmm...

Good writing. Just because you're an alien doesn't mean you wouldn't care about babies butchered like pigs, especially since orcs and their allies pretend to have reformed into good guys (which they already pretended in WC3).

[Varodoc]

Describing it as an "attonement for harm that was done" is much better writing and more thematic than throwing in out-of-character bombs such as "war crimes" and "genocide", true.

But then also there is still a huge field of interpretation that is possible with those two descriptions. I would have read that in the context of Warcraft 3, namely to attone for the harm they've done towards making every other race on Azeroth believe that you can't be diplomatic with Orcs or allow them their own space in the world.

"To have wronged this world," also has nothing to do with war crimes or genocide, in my interpretation, but more with the fact that they invaded the world as aliens and now needed a place to call their own to survive.

Titling a book "War Crimes" and throwing in words such as "genocide" and making war-like characters pearl-clutch at the concept of war however comes across as nothing short of Christie trying to rape / ruin the genre with modern ideals and viewpoints.

And yet in that realization that they caused obscene suffering to the world, they implicitly acknowledge that they committed acts that we could define as "war crimes" and "genocide".

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Describing it as an "attonement for harm that was done" is much better writing and more thematic than throwing in out-of-character bombs such as "war crimes" and "genocide", true.

But then also there is still a huge field of interpretation that is possible with those two descriptions. I would have read that in the context of Warcraft 3, namely to attone for the harm they've done towards making every other race on Azeroth believe that you can't be diplomatic with Orcs or allow them their own space in the world.

"To have wronged this world," also has nothing to do with war crimes or genocide, in my interpretation, but more with the fact that they invaded the world as aliens and now needed a place to call their own to survive.

Titling a book "War Crimes" and throwing in words such as "genocide" and making war-like characters pearl-clutch at the concept of war however comes across as nothing short of Christie trying to rape / ruin the genre with modern ideals and viewpoints.

You don’t really think golden had full control of the books/story’s do you? Blizzard was out sourcing to her they gave her what they wanted the books/story’s to be about and had her make them/flesh them out she didn’t force modern into wow that’s what blizzard wanted and they just used her as the tool to do it.

[Frinata]

There is war with collateral damage and there is the decision to commit genocide against a known civilian target AFTER the war is already won. This was the latter.



Weirdly though, the only one showing any regret up till the very end is Baine with him preventing yet another disgusting plan of Sylvanas (which he is called a Traitor for anyway), none of the other Hordes besides Saurfang care and that includes people that have just deposed one tryannical ruler (Thalryssa), or are allied with forces that directly oppose such acts (Liadrin and Hamul). If any more of them had had the courage of Baine then Sylvanas head would be on a pike in front of Orgrimmar for month now, but as with Garrosh before, they behaved like brainwashed zombies and did everything their Warchief wanted, long as it is "FOR THE HORDE!".

So the answer to the thread is: No, they did not oppose it, they were too scared of Sylvanas, it took Baine and Saurfang risking their lifes and Sylvanas sending some of the other leaders to their death in Nazjatar for them to finally snap out of whatever stupor they were in. Shame that the Horde playerbase does not understand that and calls these people traitors.

Except that Saurfang and Baine are the only traitors. Remember the oath that all Horde members take when they join; They serve the will of their Warchief, to the end. The way of the Horde has always been about this. All those who oppose are invited to Mok'gora, or to just sit with their choice. Those that rebel are traitors. Sure, they are serving more for the spirit and heart of what the Horde is about, primarily the grounds of Thrall's Horde, but that doesn't deny that they're betraying their oaths they swore.

If anything, I would be nervous about Baine and his seemingly flexible views on what his word means.

[Mehrunes]

Funny you give advices to others but do not apply them to yourself.

What advice am I not applying to myself exactly? Your sad attempts at a jab against me get more sad each time.

There is nothing to argue against your doing the equivalent of saying climate change being real is just the option of scientist. Nothing exist in the lore to contradict it being a genocide past that your musings are irrelevant to me.

It's hard to completely enumerate the ways in which your comparison here falls flat. First of all, it's what, 97% percent of scientists that confirm climate change? Anduin and Astarii do not exactly constitute even remotely the same scope here. Neither do they constitute authorities on the topic like scientists do on climate change.

Furthermore, climate change is a matter of science. If the science backs the claims of a scientist it's more than an opinion. The question of genocide is a matter of law. Where an event either meets the definition of genocide or it does not. And it just so happens the definition of genocide is one of the most specific of all crimes. Because genocide is a subtype of a subtype of a crime.

Ever wondered why there are more countries that consider Holodomor to be USSR's deliberate wrongdoing than there are those that consider it a genocide? It's because some of the former consider it to be a result of USSR targeting its political enemies rather than people on the grounds of their Ukrainian nationality. Because political affiliation is not included as a protected group under the definition of genocide.

Night Elves were targeted on their political affiliation to the Alliance, not because they were Night Elves (or, in light of the Shadowland's reveal info, because they were simply alive which, lo and behold, is also not a group covered by the definition of genocide) ergo Teldrassil cannot be genocide. And any and all Alliance character that considers it to be one is wrong.

Source: the organization that created the definition of genocide.

So your claim that nothing exists in the lore to contradict it being a genocide is also flat out wrong. The very meaning of the word contradicts it. And since Azeroth has no definition of genocide of its own, the one we have applies. And, like I said, outside of the scenario of a separate in-lore definition of genocide I just mentioned Blizzard has no authority whatsoever to redefine what legal terms mean.

Besides, need I remind you that your initial claim was that "it's confirmed in the lore that Teldrassil was an act of genocide"? I.e. presenting it as some kind of an objective fact? Where in fact it's presented as the view of two Alliance characters? The fact that you had to move the goalposts from your original position to some weird argument of trying to equate Anduin and Astarii's views with the scientific fact of climate change doesn't bode well for your argument even if you completely put aside how weak that latter position is.

In other words, somehow you managed to make a "counter" argument so weak that your retorts back when you didn't even address my point of contention were somehow stronger arguments.

So that's why there's a book literally named War Crimes and it's one of the most pivotal points in lore

You do realize the trial there is one big joke? And some of the charges are flat out ridiculous like trying to pin Old Horde's actions on Garrosh who was busy being a failure in Nagrand at the time?

The Shattering:

Also:

But that's not Orcs choosing to settle in a wasteland to atone. It's Thrall making that decision for them. And it should be noted that Thrall was raised by humans, not by Orcs. So he's not exactly representative of the Orcs' views on such matters. On top of that, this decision of Thrall is one of the key reasons why Orcs grew disgruntled with Thrall and why Garrosh was initially so popular with them. Not that the term war crimes even appears in what you quoted in your reply to @Rochana.

You don’t really think golden had full control of the books/story’s do you? Blizzard was out sourcing to her they gave her what they wanted the books/story’s to be about and had her make them/flesh them out she didn’t force modern into wow that’s what blizzard wanted and they just used her as the tool to do it.

This gets trotted out by others as well, and it's nonsense. Blizzard doesn't enforce the kind of prose being written, nor do they even look into much of the content. They just give a list of the most basic plot points and leave the rest to the author. Stackpole and King have both confirmed this when it comes to the Vol'jin and Illidan book respectively, and Golden herself has said that the reason the Calia role was done by Calia and not by a new character is because she decided to do it that way.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The Shattering seems fine to me, especially because it's wide open for interpretation of anything that does not refer to war crimes or 'genocide'.

I believe that Christie was given a lot more freedom in the later novels when she wrote "War Crimes" etc though... I suspect that she might've already tried to do such in earlier novels, but that Blizzard's editors corrected her...

Mabye now that she’s actually working at blizzard but back around mop when metzen was still there and before chronicles? I find it super hard to believe they would give full control to an out sourced writer and even let her name the book even if they had worked with them before

[Ardenaso]

You do realize the trial there is one big joke? And some of the charges are flat out ridiculous like trying to pin Old Horde's actions on Garrosh who was busy being a failure in Nagrand at the time?.

Who cares? The concept of War Crimes still exists

[Varodoc]

Who cares? The concept of War Crimes still exists

Indeed. That's why important clans like the Frostwolves started breaking apart from the Horde after the Genocide of the Draenei.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

It's hard to completely enumerate the ways in which your comparison here falls flat. First of all, it's what, 97% percent of scientists that confirm climate change? Anduin and Astarii do not exactly constitute even remotely the same scope here. Neither do they constitute authorities on the topic like scientists do on climate change.

Furthermore, climate change is a matter of science. If the science backs the claims of a scientist it's more than an opinion. The question of genocide is a matter of law. Where an event either meets the definition of genocide or it does not. And it just so happens the definition of genocide is one of the most specific of all crimes. Because genocide is a subtype of a subtype of a crime.

Ever wondered why there are more countries that consider Holodomor to be USSR's deliberate wrongdoing than there are those that consider it a genocide? It's because some of the former consider it to be a result of USSR targeting its political enemies rather than people on the grounds of their Ukrainian nationality. Because political affiliation is not included as a protected group under the definition of genocide.

Night Elves were targeted on their political affiliation to the Alliance, not because they were Night Elves (or, in light of the Shadowland's reveal info, because they were simply alive which, lo and behold, is also not a group covered by the definition of genocide) ergo Teldrassil cannot be genocide. And any and all Alliance character that considers it to be one is wrong.

Source: the organization that created the definition of genocide.

So your claim that nothing exists in the lore to contradict it being a genocide is also flat out wrong. The very meaning of the word contradicts it. And since Azeroth has no definition of genocide of its own, the one we have applies. And, like I said, outside of the scenario of a separate in-lore definition of genocide I just mentioned Blizzard has no authority whatsoever to redefine what legal terms mean.

Besides, need I remind you that your initial claim was that "it's confirmed in the lore that Teldrassil was an act of genocide"? I.e. presenting it as some kind of an objective fact? Where in fact it's presented as the view of two Alliance characters? The fact that you had to move the goalposts from your original position to some weird argument of trying to equate Anduin and Astarii's views with the scientific fact of climate change doesn't bode well for your argument even if you completely put aside how weak that latter position is.

In other words, somehow you managed to make a "counter" argument so weak that your retorts back when you didn't even address my point of contention were somehow stronger arguments.

You really can’t take your head out of your own fanfic for long enough to find out what characters your talking about? It would take you 30 seconds to google elegy and go to the last page.

Tyrande closed her eyes. “I said the tree would not be . . .” Her voice broke. She opened her eyes and looked at the child she held in her arms, covered with soot, but whole. Healthy.

Alive. Tears slipped slowly down her cheeks. “What is her name?” she asked softly.

Mia shook her head weakly. “I don’t know.”

“Then, little one, I shall name you Finel. ‘The last.’ For you are the last kaldorei to escape with your life.”

The World Tree was more than a city. It was an entire land, home to countless innocents. How many night elves were elsewhere in Azeroth? Far too few. Now, they were all who remained of their people.

Sylvanas Windrunner had committed genocide.

The night elfs were also targeted due to there race/nation as the horde thought that would cause a divide between the elfs and the worgen.

“They might try to conquer the Undercity . . . but Darnassus becomes our hostage against that. The night elves will not allow your city to fall if they fear it means you will destroy theirs. The same goes for a strike against Silvermoon.” Saurfang’s thoughts raced. She’s right. This could work. “And even if the Alliance agrees to retake Darnassus . . . The Gilneans!”

Sylvanas’s eyes disappeared beneath the edge of her hood. “They lost their nation years ago. The Gilneans will be furious if the Alliance acts to help the kaldorei first,” she said. “The boy in Stormwind will have a political crisis on his hands. He is smart, but he is not experienced. What happens when Genn Greymane, Malfurion Stormrage, and Tyrande Whisperwind all demand differing actions? He is not a high king like his father. The respect the others give him is a courtesy, not an obligation. Anduin Wrynn will rapidly become a leader who cannot act. If the Alliance will not march as one, each nation will act in its own interest. Each army will return home to protect their lands from us.”

It was a genocide that’s a fact of the lore. You deluding you’re self about it to such an extreme extent would be impressive if it wasn’t so sad.

[Aeula]

So that's the worst thing the Night Elves have done to the Blood Elves? The Orcs literally raided their way into Quel'thalas and allied themselves with the ancient enemy of the High Elves, but they're all buddy buddies now.

Also, the original punishment for practicing arcane magic after the Sundering, was death. Tyrande and Malfurion actually did the merciful thing by exiling the Highborne. Most of the Highborne were happy to leave anyway.

Depends on the elf. Some Elves will have lost loved ones to the Night Elves, others to the Orcs. It depends.

[Stardrift]

No, they did not. Blizzard does not have time to put in story details. Not when they can just Disneyify everything and only have 5 leading characters spewing cheesy anime dialogue tropes at one another, and call that a story.

[eurojust]

Depends on the elf. Some Elves will have lost loved ones to the Night Elves, others to the Orcs. It depends.

Really? When was the last time that the Night Elves attacked the Blood Elves? I remember Tyrande helping them, not killing them.
Meanwhile the Orcs slaughtered every High Elf on their path and would have exterminated them if it wasn't for the Alliance to save them. The windrunners even lost their brother.
Really, we have the Alliance helping them to survive against the Trolls, the Orcs, restoring their sunwell... And as a payback the Blood Elves slaughter their civilians and wage a total war against them?

[Mehrunes]

Indeed. That's why important clans like the Frostwolves started breaking apart from the Horde after the Genocide of the Draenei.

Frostwolves did that because Ner'zhul decided to warn Durotan of Gul'dan's bullshit.

[Varodoc]

Depends on the elf. Some Elves will have lost loved ones to the Night Elves, others to the Orcs. It depends.

Even if that were the case, they certainly wouldn't have lost their loved ones to the innocent people of Darnassus.

[Minikin]

Never understood why Blizz thought that blood elfs joining the horde was a good thing. Bloof elfs didnt like trolls even though it was the amani that attacked them. The orcs even assaulted silvermoon city, here I get why blood efls would never get into the horde, but meh blizzard has no consistency.

eh it actually does make sense at the story progresses.

1. Their last interaction with the alliance ended up with them dealing with a racist.
2. Night elves absolutely wouldnt allow their practicing

The horde by its initial definition (God only knows what the current one is given they were at a crossroads and are about to circle back to it once again), is about survival by banding together. They definitely werent going to join the alliance due to 1 and 2, that only leaves the horde. Their survival was definitely a thing, I mean their monarch ran off to find an alternate source, eventually came back and sold them out to the legion.

It is a fair point about the horde assaulting silvermoon but eh the story has to move some way. And they had to be introduced given that in burning crusade we would see them with Illidan and thus their story arch progressing.

Who knows, maybe in a similar pattern some day we can get ethereals.

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You really can’t take your head out of your own fanfic for long enough to find out what characters your talking about? It would take you 30 seconds to google elegy and go to the last page.

Tyrande closed her eyes. “I said the tree would not be . . .” Her voice broke. She opened her eyes and looked at the child she held in her arms, covered with soot, but whole. Healthy.

Alive. Tears slipped slowly down her cheeks. “What is her name?” she asked softly.

Mia shook her head weakly. “I don’t know.”

“Then, little one, I shall name you Finel. ‘The last.’ For you are the last kaldorei to escape with your life.”

The World Tree was more than a city. It was an entire land, home to countless innocents. How many night elves were elsewhere in Azeroth? Far too few. Now, they were all who remained of their people.

Sylvanas Windrunner had committed genocide.

The night elfs were also targeted due to there race/nation as the horde thought that would cause a divide between the elfs and the worgen.

It was a genocide that’s a fact of the lore. You deluding you’re self about it to such an extreme extent would be impressive if it wasn’t so sad.

thats rich. only @Mehrunes would claim fanfic then outright deny an actual word used in the book. BUT here is some number about climate change!

[Kallisto]

Really? When was the last time that the Night Elves attacked the Blood Elves? I remember Tyrande helping them, not killing them.

Replay the start zone. First interaction with the alliance is a dwarf that claims to be an embassador to put the Blood elves back into the alliance (Blood Elves were fully neutral at this point.). Few quests later you find a sanctum has been sabotaged and the same dwarf along with Night elves had attacked without provocation one of the two buildings that were keeping the blood elves from being wiped out. They attacked it knowingly and without remorse. You kill the dwarf and take out the night elf invaders of the sanctum.

Fast Forward to ghostlands you have night elf occupation of Blood Elf areas. Both on the coast and inland. They are not there to play nice or to help the blood elves remove the scourge. They are there to attack and kill Blood Elves. Who still at this time are neutral but now receiving help from Forsaken who ask for nothing in return.

[schwank05]

Night elves and Blood Elves hate each other or at least Blood Elves hate Night Elves. So I am sure they were cheering and happy to do it.

[eurojust]

Replay the start zone. First interaction with the alliance is a dwarf that claims to be an embassador to put the Blood elves back into the alliance (Blood Elves were fully neutral at this point.). Few quests later you find a sanctum has been sabotaged and the same dwarf along with Night elves had attacked without provocation one of the two buildings that were keeping the blood elves from being wiped out. They attacked it knowingly and without remorse. You kill the dwarf and take out the night elf invaders of the sanctum.

Fast Forward to ghostlands you have night elf occupation of Blood Elf areas. Both on the coast and inland. They are not there to play nice or to help the blood elves remove the scourge. They are there to attack and kill Blood Elves. Who still at this time are neutral but now receiving help from Forsaken who ask for nothing in return.

Thanks for confiming that the Night Elves didn't kill any one blood elf.

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