Could something be done to make people tank?

[Asrialol]

It's not so much that tank responsibility needs to be reduced, but more that the responsibilities each member of the group carries needs to be equalized.

Time after time we see people pointing out that DPS can basically just spam their attacks. And even when there is a responsibility to handle, there are three people that can do it instead of just one.

Blizzard badly needs to address this or the situation will continue to degrade.

What. The DPS has equal if not more responsibility than the tank and healer. If they aren't coordinated, they'll cause the tank or even someone else to die or get one shot on pretty much every trash pull. How on earth can you claim that DPS can just "spam attacks"? Are we playing the same game?

[Scrysis]

What. The DPS has equal if not more responsibility than the tank and healer. If they aren't coordinated, they'll cause the tank or even someone else to die or get one shot on pretty much every trash pull. How on earth can you claim that DPS can just "spam attacks"? Are we playing the same game?

They SHOULD have responsibility. That doesn't mean that they will acknowledge that they do. I know this is a tank thread, but speaking from a healer's perspective, I can't count how many times pug dps go apeshit on packs on bursting weeks. Or how often they don't use defensives. Or how they seem to stand in absolutely everything on a grevious week. Not one will sit and eat free mage food to top their health up when they see the healer stopping 5 seconds for mana. Hell, I can still recall a Tol Dagor that was going piss-poorly. We couldn't get past the first boss. Reason? Dps weren't taking care of orbs. But instead, I got accused of being a shitty healer. Replaced the dps, ran the key one lower, and three chested it.


I feel really bad. Some of the tanks out there are so jaded now, that they have become brittle. They snap and leave the moment there is a death or two, and I cry a little inside for them. Please tanks, hang on. I've seen some really good runs have rough starts that finished -- in time -- only because everyone stayed to to the end.

[Amarys]

Well the only reason I never play a tank is that I don't wanna lead.. a tank is generally expected to know where to go, which packs to pull and which to skip. Also to watch the healers mana and not pull when he needs to drink and usually it's the tank who gets the blame if something goes wrong.

[Biggles Worth]

The problem for me is they made my tanking class really not fun and super boring to play so I go dps unless I am running something with friends.

[chiddie]

Yeah, okay. For sure it's only due to timers. Not going to mention people speed running dungeons in WorLK, Cata, MoP, WoD. They only did so in Legion and BfA. Face it, no one wants to waste 1 hour in a dungeon because they want a "chill" run. For me a chill run means a smooth run. Not me not using half of my abilities because someone wants to pull mobs one by one so they can watch their Netflix shows while eating popcorn and not being concerned with the game. People were rushing long before timers. If you want to eliminate timers, you're free to do so - host a run that says "Finishing without concern for the timer" See how many people will join and how well that run will go. If you don't want timers, do regular mythics or Raids. If you want to progress, complete the challenge the game has presented you with.

Note: When talking I do not mean you alone. This can be said to anyone with a similar mentality.

No timer does not mean 3 hours dungeons. I have very little time so I really enjoy 30 to 45 mins dungeons.

But this has nothing to do with timers. As usual instead of giving some little extras for staying in par, they punish not being in par.

[Craaazyyy]

tanking is just boring.. and has been getting more and more boring with time because of all the simplifications

yeah, in dungeons its a bit less boring, but in raids tanking is easy and boring.. as a tank essentially you only have to deal with tanking mechanics and ignore most of other shit and tank mechanics are usually super similar on every boss

[OriginalName]

Getting rid of interrupts would make tanking so much worse because you couldn't even do anything about that cast that's about to go off and that none of your tunneling DPS has noticed. The game needs more mechanics that punish DPS players spesifically for playing stupid, mechanics that the tank can't help with because otherwise its still your responsibility as a tank to help. And I don't mean mechanics that just hurt them, because that punishes the healer. Don't know exactly how they should function but CCs and undispellable debuffs that drastically reduce damage done for a time would seem good motivators to get DPS to do mechanics.

Give dps more cleanse/dispells, make it so they get a buff whenever they clear a poison, disease etc.

Also do the same to interrupts, give rogues a few sec of adrenaline rush when kicking a caster and so forth.

[Amarys]

I think it's more of "they can get away with it". And this is probably targeted mostly at +10 and below runs.

Yea no one really cares if a DPS screws up and dies.. the group just finishes the fight, they just get ressed and the party moves on. When the tanks messes up, it usually results in a wipe and everyone dying.. tank gets the blame.

[Penegal]

No timer does not mean 3 hours dungeons. I have very little time so I really enjoy 30 to 45 mins dungeons.

But this has nothing to do with timers. As usual instead of giving some little extras for staying in par, they punish not being in par.

I don't understand, you enjoy 30 to 45 minute dungeons, which is the timer for a few of the m+ ones. If so, do keys that will allow you to complete them in that time? Don't try to push outside your level if you can't spare the time to learn or to find people who can match you and complete the challenge. I feel like people expect the game to give them a reward for failing at this point. Even still, not completing a dungeon in time allots you a new key at -1 level instead of the same key at a -1 level as well as two pieces of loot instead of 3. You get plenty of a reward for not completing the challenge properly. I don't know what you mean by punishing you.

[chiddie]

I don't understand, you enjoy 30 to 45 minute dungeons, which is the timer for a few of the m+ ones. If so, do keys that will allow you to complete them in that time? Don't try to push outside your level if you can't spare the time to learn or to find people who can match you and complete the challenge. I feel like people expect the game to give them a reward for failing at this point. Even still, not completing a dungeon in time allots you a new key at -1 level instead of the same key at a -1 level as well as two pieces of loot instead of 3. You get plenty of a reward for not completing the challenge properly. I don't know what you mean by punishing you.

There is no challenge. Having enough gear to survive a +X is the only challenge. Run a +15 with 445 ilvl and you’ll fail. Do the same things with ilvl 465 and you’ll succeed.

This is not Dark Souls, it’s a gear matter 90% of times.

Without timer you simply DONT HAVE PEOPLE WHO WANT YOU TO RUSH”. You wanna have a cup of tea between every pull? You can. You wanna taunt half instance at the same time? You can. But you are not punished if you want a tea from time to time.

There are really no other ways to discern who deserves a 475 object instead of a 455 object apart from time? Affixes and mob health/damage are not enough?

The game is clearly made to reward only who have tons of time to play. That’s of course fine but of course people with less time won’t play the most difficult roles and there will be always shortage of them.

[Penegal]

There is no challenge. Having enough gear to survive a +X is the only challenge. Run a +15 with 445 ilvl and you’ll fail. Do the same things with ilvl 465 and you’ll succeed.

This is not Dark Souls, it’s a gear matter 90% of times.

Without timer you simply DONT HAVE PEOPLE WHO WANT YOU TO RUSH”. You wanna have a cup of tea between every pull? You can. You wanna taunt half instance at the same time? You can. But you are not punished if you want a tea from time to time.

There are really no other ways to discern who deserves a 475 object instead of a 455 object apart from time? Affixes and mob health/damage are not enough?

The game is clearly made to reward only who have tons of time to play. That’s of course fine but of course people with less time won’t play the most difficult roles and there will be always shortage of them.

With the timer you are forced to meet the requirements in terms of DPS and HPS. If you have no timer you have no DPS requirement, no HPS requirement. Simply because you can take 20 minutes to kill 1 mob if you want. If you want to prove you deserve this item, do this in the allotted time. Arbitrarily increasing the creatures's damage and health does not increase difficulty. Adding a timer to that makes it difficult. If there was no timer, you only need to pull as much as your tank can survive at best. If there's a timer, you're forced to go out of your comfort zone if need be and pull more than your tank can survive without employing better play or tactics such as kiting.

Even so, not meeting the timer's requirements only forces you to go 1 level down with 1 less piece of loot. Hardly a punishment if you ask me. You still get your weekly cache if you complete the dungeon regardless of timer.

The game is clearly made to reward only those who have time to play it? That's what MMORPGs are known for. Rewards equal to the time put in the game. That used to be the case with WoW. Not anymore, though. Just by the view you have on the matter I'm willing to bet that if you go in the MDI tournament server and buy the best possible gear, you will still lose to the players that compete there even if they had 10 item levels lower.

Also, the argument about the item level in a +15 is absolutely wrong. You have so many levels between a +2 and a +15 that can easily get you the gear needed to complete the +15 in time. You can most certainly complete it without that gear but in how much time? Some people can time it. Others cannot. You can go back and see how +15s were timed the first week of the new season releasing. Time only mattered in vanilla / tbc. After that they made sure to close the gap as much as possible that would still let this be an MMORPG.

[Loveliest]

I'm currently slightly angry right now on the people I run M+ with so here goes.
The tank is the default leader. Has to download MDT, plan a route while the dps don't even bother to install it so you can easily share the route. Have to explain what they have to do and even then they moan they didn't know exactly where to keep CDs for. Not that they'd go install the bloody addon so we can be on the same page.
Then something happens - they expect the tank to tell them to call for aoe stun, to run the interrupt rotation, to tell them to be careful when there's a patrol coming. Oh right and tell them to soul stone. Heaven forbid you actually ask them to put healthstones during the run.
Yeah, sure, the damage numbers is part of why tanking isn't as fun as being a dps. But it's also the added responsibility when the dps don't give a shit. As a dps you can just sit in the back and pew pew. Ask 10 dps who did a Mythic+ to tell you which route they went - you'll be lucky you found one who's able to tell you, they usually just follow the tank. Not even starting on how I have to look at everyone's health and debuff and dispell them, heal them, sacrifice or hand of freedom on them.
So yeah, this responsibility can be fun with a group of decent people, but not with random pugs or people who aren't capable of doing anything but their basic rotation. You aren't a good dps if you can get good numbers, you're a good dps if you can help prevent a wipe in a crap situation. if you just sit there waiting for your doom and forget you have defensives, soul stone, stuns, immunities, self heals and whatever else, you're just part of the problem with the lack of tanks.

If you're one of the good dpses, then good to you, but bear in mind that the majority are not like you. And most dps are allowed to be mediocre, while tanks are blamed and hated if they're just as clueless.

[Dommie530]

Ive tanked since TBC really. And all i can tell is tanking for pugs is disgusting. People are assholes, people dont let each other learn or whatever. When a dps dies its less bad then a tank dies.. when you take 1 second breather, entire group will tell you to move move move move. The minmax community is drifting tanks away, a tank has to know EVERYTHING, all mechanics and the interrupting, fastest way, what to pull, what not to pull, whilst a dps just mindlessly runs behind him, and dps abit. Some people should just chill down. Im lucky i never have these problems but many tanks i have seen sure do sadly

[Loveliest]

The game is clearly made to reward only who have tons of time to play.

Well, yes. It's meant to reward people who spend time in it. Wherein lies the problem?

I mean it's twofold:
1. gear you get
2. experience
The more you have of each, the better you are.
If I give my sister my account with my 465 ilvl tank, she'll utterly fail because she's never seen this game before (she doesn't play games at all actually). If I do the same, I won't. And is that an issue?
If I play chess with a newbie, do you expect him to beat someone more experienced? It's ALL a matter of time

As a side note, there is a level cap to gear. Eventually you'll get to your 500 ilvl or whatever and a lvl 25 M+ that WILL pose a challenge. There is challenge if you want it.

[Xirrohon]

I havent done any Raid Tanking but playing one in M+ is pretty fun.

[Loveliest]

nice +5 stories

Not to be a bitch here, but this thread doesn't specifically say it's about tanks in high Mythic+. Being for a +5 does not make it an invalid argument. If said tank takes shit in a +5, do you think he'll want to try harder keys? Probably not. We forget what this thread is about.

[chiddie]

With the timer you are forced to meet the requirements in terms of DPS and HPS. If you have no timer you have no DPS requirement, no HPS requirement. Simply because you can take 20 minutes to kill 1 mob if you want. If you want to prove you deserve this item, do this in the allotted time. Arbitrarily increasing the creatures's damage and health does not increase difficulty. Adding a timer to that makes it difficult. If there was no timer, you only need to pull as much as your tank can survive at best. If there's a timer, you're forced to go out of your comfort zone if need be and pull more than your tank can survive without employing better play or tactics such as kiting.

Even so, not meeting the timer's requirements only forces you to go 1 level down with 1 less piece of loot. Hardly a punishment if you ask me. You still get your weekly cache if you complete the dungeon regardless of timer.

The game is clearly made to reward only those who have time to play it? That's what MMORPGs are known for. Rewards equal to the time put in the game. That used to be the case with WoW. Not anymore, though. Just by the view you have on the matter I'm willing to bet that if you go in the MDI tournament server and buy the best possible gear, you will still lose to the players that compete there even if they had 10 item levels lower.

Also, the argument about the item level in a +15 is absolutely wrong. You have so many levels between a +2 and a +15 that can easily get you the gear needed to complete the +15 in time. You can most certainly complete it without that gear but in how much time? Some people can time it. Others cannot. You can go back and see how +15s were timed the first week of the new season releasing. Time only mattered in vanilla / tbc. After that they made sure to close the gap as much as possible that would still let this be an MMORPG.

You think time is a valuable variable to measure skill, i think it’s not. Plain and simple. We are both right and both wrong.

I would probably suck at MDI, mainly because I cannot afford to play 10 hours a day and re-run the same stuff endlessly with the same comp to make it become almost automatic and flawless.

The difference, as always, is time. Of course given everyone has the same time some will shine more and some will shine less but this is totally normal.

Tanking has already a stressful impact on gameplay without having to add a stupid timer. And losing a key level for not making in time is a really high punishment because you need another run just to make it again at the point you were before the failure.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, yes. It's meant to reward people who spend time in it. Wherein lies the problem?

I mean it's twofold:
1. gear you get
2. experience
The more you have of each, the better you are.
If I give my sister my account with my 465 ilvl tank, she'll utterly fail because she's never seen this game before (she doesn't play games at all actually). If I do the same, I won't. And is that an issue?
If I play chess with a newbie, do you expect him to beat someone more experienced? It's ALL a matter of time.

There’s no problem. Until “you” whine because there are no tanks out there and you wait 90 hours to start your key hoping to not deplete it.

In my opinion, we tanks are few also because of stress generated from timed runs.

But this is the way of gear only based games, of course.

[Penegal]

You think time is a valuable variable to measure skill, i think it’s not. Plain and simple. We are both right and both wrong.

I would probably suck at MDI, mainly because I cannot afford to play 10 hours a day and re-run the same stuff endlessly with the same comp to make it become almost automatic and flawless.

The difference, as always, is time. Of course given everyone has the same time some will shine more and some will shine less but this is totally normal.

Tanking has already a stressful impact on gameplay without having to add a stupid timer. And losing a key level for not making in time is a really high punishment because you need another run just to make it again at the point you were before the failure.

Of course it is. Have you heard of this? We're human, we don't have infinite time. How many times would we have made leaps of progress if certain people never died? Everyone has limited time, what they manage to achieve within that time span is how they're measured. What if Mike Tyson never got old? What if Steve Jobs never died? What if Nicola Tesla was still alive? All those people have run out of time. If we all had infinite time nothing would matter. We'd have the cure for cancer, interstellar technology, unbeatable fighters.

Even boss mechanics are on a timer. If there was no timer and you had to ask for the next mechanic what would happen? How can you say that time is not a valuable way of measuring skill?

[Loveliest]

In m+ you literally need to have an idea how to get to the % needed without over pulling and wasting time with trash. It's not very hard.

What's this "have an idea"? You don't just "have an idea" out of the blue. You need to study beforehand, get an addon, see where the pillars are, plan the route. For Waycrest, plan several routes. And then follow through with what you planned. And god forbid if you plan a route that isn't as good as the one that dps just did and +2ed, cause he'll start bitching halfway you're doing it wrong. Yes, it's not "hard", but it's something you have to do that dps don't.
New patch, replan ALL routes for all dungeons (at least one route for each). Last week when I got the +14 shrine key, I said we'd do it another day because I didn't plan the route and I didn't feel like doing it then. I didn't want to "wing" it. Some people are like that. Do you think any of the dps said "no worries, I'll plan the route and share it"?

Again, the point isn't how HARD it is. The point is that it's EXTRA stuff that you don't need to do as a dps.
Btw, you take for granted a lot of things you do as a tank because you're used to it.

- - - Updated - - -

There’s no problem. Until “you” whine because there are no tanks out there and you wait 90 hours to start your key hoping to not deplete it.

In my opinion, we tanks are few also because of stress generated from timed runs.

But this is the way of gear only based games, of course.

Sorry, I don't uderstand what you're saying. I'm a tank myself, so maybe that's why. Is it that tanks don't tank because they don't have time to gear up and get experience?

[msdos]

The tank role just seems pointless now, I think that's why I'm struggling to put a finger on what's wrong with it. Well what's wrong with it is it's pointless. They just teeter everything for PVP, so I don't see why you don't just give a DPS a talent in the same row as a DPS button that instead increases their tankiness.

You seriously can just phase out tanks and throw defensives on melee DPS, not sure what the point is anymore. Likewise you could just go back to the feral druid blueprint, which was your tank IS a dps, but the role has to be toggled. I think the only reason they keep tanks in anymore is so they can design raids.
You already had a nice tank blueprint with DKs, but they ruined it for no reason basically.