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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Ulthalesh was the ruler of Mardum, which means that he was the strongest demon.
    He was the strongest demon on Mardum, jail for demons defeated by Sargeras. Apparently, Mannoroth didn't get imprisoned.
    The meaning of the Eredar was that the Legion had commanders. The originality of demons does not mean anything. Now the strongest demons are Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden.
    Of course. However, we cannot deny that Mannoroth is the most powerful manifestation of Fel.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Azshara was considered stronger than Mannoroth because she was drawing energy from the Well of Eternity. She doesn't have that power anymore. With the loss of N'zoth, she's nowhere near powerful as she once was.

    Again...
    Xavius and the Well could do virtually nothing against Malfurion.
    Xavius, after becoming a servant of N'zoth, rose to the level of the demigods and was stronger than Cenarius.
    Buff of N'Zoth >>>>> Well
    LOL what? Why does the death of Nzot affect Azshara in any way? HE ALREADY GIVEN HER POWER. He did not tie her to himself, he simply gave her power, his death does not affect her personal power. Or did the death of the Titans somehow influence the powers of the Keepers or Aspects?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    He was the strongest demon on Mardum, jail for demons defeated by Sargeras. Apparently, Mannoroth didn't get imprisoned.

    Of course. However, we cannot deny that Mannoroth is the most powerful manifestation of Fel.
    What does it mean apparently? Sargeras caught all the demons that invaded the universe and established order in the universe. Do you want to tell me that Mannoroth did not invade the Universe or that Sargeras did not care about the Annihilian king? No need to give your headcanon for canon and continue to live in fantasy.
    We can. Ulthalesh is stronger than Mannoroth. Also in the quest ''The Black Tome'' were mentioned Fel Lords, which even the Legion was afraid to summon.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I would say she's a bit more powerful than that - being a 10,000+ year-old Archmage of high standing, beneficiary of infusing from the Well of Eternity and N'Zoth. She's probably Illidan-tier or close to it in her current form.
    Illidan-tier? Azshara is KJ-tier, or even above.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Illidan-tier? Azshara is KJ-tier, or even above.
    Azshara with full access to the Well of Eternity was less than Kil'jaeden based on Mannoroth's quote, and Azshara no longer has access to that power given the Well's destruction in the Sundering. She was bolstered by her transformation into a Naga and presumably gained even more power from N'Zoth, although we don't really know what the extent of such power is. She's powerful, sure; but I don't think she's *that* powerful at the end of the day. Would be difficult to say without Kil'jaeden and Azshara actually fighting one another, something that now cannot occur.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Azshara with full access to the Well of Eternity was less than Kil'jaeden based on Mannoroth's quote, and Azshara no longer has access to that power given the Well's destruction in the Sundering. She was bolstered by her transformation into a Naga and presumably gained even more power from N'Zoth, although we don't really know what the extent of such power is. She's powerful, sure; but I don't think she's *that* powerful at the end of the day. Would be difficult to say without Kil'jaeden and Azshara actually fighting one another, something that now cannot occur.
    Again...
    Xavius and the Well could do virtually nothing against Malfurion.
    Xavius, after becoming a servant of N'zoth, rose to the level of the demigods and was stronger than Cenarius.
    Buff of N'Zoth >>>>> Well

  5. #185
    Kil'jaeden fought Velen, Khadgar and Illidan at the same time...

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHunter18 View Post
    Kil'jaeden fought Velen, Khadgar and Illidan at the same time...
    Azshara during the battle was not even completely focused on the battle with the heroes, she was more concerned about the release of N'zoth

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Again...
    Xavius and the Well could do virtually nothing against Malfurion.
    Xavius, after becoming a servant of N'zoth, rose to the level of the demigods and was stronger than Cenarius.
    Buff of N'Zoth >>>>> Well
    Not exactly a 1:1 comparison in terms of raw strength. Malfurion came at Xavius with a form of magic he was unprepared for, and based on the text of the "War of the Ancients" trilogy it was as much Azeroth itself arrayed against Xavius as Xavius had betrayed his own world to the Legion and was angling for its destruction, Malfurion being the lens for nature's own fury at Xavius' betrayal. Later on, Xavius was far more positioned to array himself against Malfurion and Cenarius by virtue of the Emerald Dream having been corrupted beforehand - basically he had access to the Druids' collective weakness now where he did not before.

    I don't think the power of N'Zoth is anywhere near the equal of that the Well (Azeroth's own power), especially given that Azerite itself is what destroys N'Zoth at the close of this very expansion.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Not exactly a 1:1 comparison in terms of raw strength. Malfurion came at Xavius with a form of magic he was unprepared for, and based on the text of the "War of the Ancients" trilogy it was as much Azeroth itself arrayed against Xavius as Xavius had betrayed his own world to the Legion and was angling for its destruction, Malfurion being the lens for nature's own fury at Xavius' betrayal. Later on, Xavius was far more positioned to array himself against Malfurion and Cenarius by virtue of the Emerald Dream having been corrupted beforehand - basically he had access to the Druids' collective weakness now where he did not before.

    I don't think the power of N'Zoth is anywhere near the equal of that the Well (Azeroth's own power), especially given that Azerite itself is what destroys N'Zoth at the close of this very expansion.
    plus, Azshara really has no feats that puts her on the level of Archi and KJ.

    saying that she got the same power Deathwing and Xavius got is a bit BS IMO, no offense ofc.

    I guess Vashj and other Nagas are Deathwing tiers LFMAO.

    I'll take someone who was empowered by the strongest Titan over a bug any day.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHunter18 View Post
    plus, Azshara really has no feats that puts her on the level of Archi and KJ.

    saying that she got the same power Deathwing and Xavius got is a bit BS IMO, no offense ofc.

    I guess Vashj and other Nagas are Deathwing tiers LFMAO.

    I'll take someone who was empowered by the strongest Titan over a bug any day.
    A lot of Azshara's power is really informed ability based on her write-ups and so forth - she did precious little as either the ruler of the Ancient Kaldorei empire or empress of the Naga to really show us her relative "power level" insofar as these things. What things she *did* do often have extenuating circumstances like what happened in Azsuna - she did destroyed the Tidestone of Golganneth (itself a significant and noteworthy feat), unleashing a wave of energy that ruined much Azsuna, killing and simultaneously cursing its inhabitants like Prince Farondis. I don't think this makes her "Lord of the Legion" tier by any means, though; as the destruction of the Pillars of Creation isn't itself a demigod-tier act in my estimation.

    Azshara is powerful, certainly; but I don't think she's as powerful as all that.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    A lot of Azshara's power is really informed ability based on her write-ups and so forth - she did precious little as either the ruler of the Ancient Kaldorei empire or empress of the Naga to really show us her relative "power level" insofar as these things. What things she *did* do often have extenuating circumstances like what happened in Azsuna - she did destroyed the Tidestone of Golganneth (itself a significant and noteworthy feat), unleashing a wave of energy that ruined much Azsuna, killing and simultaneously cursing its inhabitants like Prince Farondis. I don't think this makes her "Lord of the Legion" tier by any means, though; as the destruction of the Pillars of Creation isn't itself a demigod-tier act in my estimation.

    Azshara is powerful, certainly; but I don't think she's as powerful as all that.
    yeah, I agree.

    who knows, maybe she returns and does something crazy.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Not exactly a 1:1 comparison in terms of raw strength. Malfurion came at Xavius with a form of magic he was unprepared for, and based on the text of the "War of the Ancients" trilogy it was as much Azeroth itself arrayed against Xavius as Xavius had betrayed his own world to the Legion and was angling for its destruction, Malfurion being the lens for nature's own fury at Xavius' betrayal. Later on, Xavius was far more positioned to array himself against Malfurion and Cenarius by virtue of the Emerald Dream having been corrupted beforehand - basically he had access to the Druids' collective weakness now where he did not before.

    I don't think the power of N'Zoth is anywhere near the equal of that the Well (Azeroth's own power), especially given that Azerite itself is what destroys N'Zoth at the close of this very expansion.
    Xavius also could not oppose Malfurion even after he was personally strengthened by Sargeras and faced with him personally. He won only because he set a trap and because he came with other satyrs. So, is Sargeras weaker than the Well?
    It was N'zoth that made Xavius so powerful. This is a very stupid comparison. You are comparing the personal strength of N'Zoth and Azeroth, while everything is much simpler. N'zoth gave his servants more power than they took from the Well.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Xavius also could not oppose Malfurion even after he was personally strengthened by Sargeras and faced with him personally. He won only because he set a trap and because he came with other satyrs. So, is Sargeras weaker than the Well?
    It was N'zoth that made Xavius so powerful. This is a very stupid comparison. You are comparing the personal strength of N'Zoth and Azeroth, while everything is much simpler. N'zoth gave his servants more power than they took from the Well.
    Sargeras made Xavius a demon, yes; this does not mean Xavius suddenly became the equal of Sargeras by any means - he just got a power boost, one which ultimately proved insufficient to the opposition. Whatever power Sargeras gave Xavius was not the equal of the Well. This doesn't have any real bearing on Sargeras' own power, though. We don't really know how much power N'Zoth gives anyone, to be honest. And like the previous comparison this doesn't have any real bearing on N'Zoth's own power level because power granted != power possessed, especially if the source of such power happens to be parsimonious or greedy with their power. We do know that N'Zoth is the not the equal of the Well's power or a Titan World-Soul, however; because he is annihilated by the channeled power of Azeroth herself. Make of that what you will.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I would say she's a bit more powerful than that - being a 10,000+ year-old Archmage of high standing, beneficiary of infusing from the Well of Eternity and N'Zoth. She's probably Illidan-tier or close to it in her current form.
    About the Illidan power-Level
    Do you think the current Illidan is stronger than the Lich King Arthas or not? After all, he lost their duel only because of self-confidence, and not because he was weaker.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Sargeras made Xavius a demon, yes; this does not mean Xavius suddenly became the equal of Sargeras by any means - he just got a power boost, one which ultimately proved insufficient to the opposition. Whatever power Sargeras gave Xavius was not the equal of the Well. This doesn't have any real bearing on Sargeras' own power, though. We don't really know how much power N'Zoth gives anyone, to be honest. And like the previous comparison this doesn't have any real bearing on N'Zoth's own power level because power granted != power possessed, especially if the source of such power happens to be parsimonious or greedy with their power. We do know that N'Zoth is the not the equal of the Well's power or a Titan World-Soul, however; because he is annihilated by the channeled power of Azeroth herself. Make of that what you will.
    That is, when Sargeras gives Xavius ​​power, it has nothing to do with the personal power of Sargeras and Sargeras is stronger than the Well.
    But when N'zoth gives someone the power, this is due to personal power and Nzota N'zoth weaker Well.
    Great double standards. Your logic is absolutely strange, because you think that Azshara and Xavius ​​were so connected with the Well that they used all his power. No. No one did it. The well strengthened their magical abilities, but this does not mean that they had all the power of the Well. Only a part. And N'zoth gave Xavius ​​so much power that it overshadowed the power of the Well. Not the Well itself. Only the part that Xavius ​​used.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    About the Illidan power-Level
    Do you think the current Illidan is stronger than the Lich King Arthas or not? After all, he lost their duel only because of self-confidence, and not because he was weaker.
    Difficult to say, as these "power duels" often are. When Illidan fought Arthas, Arthas was himself still just a Death Knight - he had yet to take up the Helm of Domination and acclimate to its power (as well as expunging the consciousness of Ner'zhul with whom he shared power). Illidan, too, took some time to fully integrate the power of the Skull of Gul'dan as well as creating his own version of the Well of Eternity in the Black Temple (the Reliquary of Souls) from which he could draw from. I would say Lich King Arthas at the height of his power and Illidan as shown in Legion would be close in terms of power, but I might give Illidan the slightest of edges based on the refinement of his power over time (and the fact he seemed ready and willing to contend with Sargeras of all things).
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Difficult to say, as these "power duels" often are. When Illidan fought Arthas, Arthas was himself still just a Death Knight - he had yet to take up the Helm of Domination and acclimate to its power (as well as expunging the consciousness of Ner'zhul with whom he shared power). Illidan, too, took some time to fully integrate the power of the Skull of Gul'dan as well as creating his own version of the Well of Eternity in the Black Temple (the Reliquary of Souls) from which he could draw from. I would say Lich King Arthas at the height of his power and Illidan as shown in Legion would be close in terms of power, but I might give Illidan the slightest of edges based on the refinement of his power over time (and the fact he seemed ready and willing to contend with Sargeras of all things).
    Illidan did not draw strength from the Reliquary, and by the time of the duel with Arthas, he had already adapted to his power.
    Arthas was not just a Death Knight, Ner'Zhul gave him all his power for this duel and without this help Arthas would have lost.
    That is, according to your logic, Azshara, Illidan and Arthas are on the same level? Interesting opinion

  16. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    That is, when Sargeras gives Xavius ​​power, it has nothing to do with the personal power of Sargeras and Sargeras is stronger than the Well.
    But when N'zoth gives someone the power, this is due to personal power and Nzota N'zoth weaker Well.
    Great double standards. Your logic is absolutely strange, because you think that Azshara and Xavius ​​were so connected with the Well that they used all his power. No. No one did it. The well strengthened their magical abilities, but this does not mean that they had all the power of the Well. Only a part. And N'zoth gave Xavius ​​so much power that it overshadowed the power of the Well. Not the Well itself. Only the part that Xavius ​​used.
    Again, we don't really know what level or quantity of power N'Zoth or Sargeras granted either party - so the comparison to the Well's potential power serves no purpose, because we can't quantify the powers alone much less relative to their source(s). Neither Azshara nor Xavius used *all* the Well's power, nor did I ever make that claim - so I'm not really sure what you're referring to here. I said they were empowered by it, and that it's an immense source of power, but it was also destroyed and thus they were lessened by its loss. Those are all true statements, but again, we've nothing to quantify them with. We also have no idea if N'Zoth's granted power to Xavius actually made him "more powerful" than access to the Well did - N'Zoth was strong against opponents who gained power from the compromised Dream (e.g. Malfurion, Cenarius, and Ysera), but not so powerful against the adventurers and champions who later killed him in the Nightmare itself.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Again, we don't really know what level or quantity of power N'Zoth or Sargeras granted either party - so the comparison to the Well's potential power serves no purpose, because we can't quantify the powers alone much less relative to their source(s). Neither Azshara nor Xavius used *all* the Well's power, nor did I ever make that claim - so I'm not really sure what you're referring to here. I said they were empowered by it, and that it's an immense source of power, but it was also destroyed and thus they were lessened by its loss. Those are all true statements, but again, we've nothing to quantify them with. We also have no idea if N'Zoth's granted power to Xavius actually made him "more powerful" than access to the Well did - N'Zoth was strong against opponents who gained power from the compromised Dream (e.g. Malfurion, Cenarius, and Ysera), but not so powerful against the adventurers and champions who later killed him in the Nightmare itself.
    Yes, we just see that Xavius has become a demigod and surpasses the wild gods in power
    You say that it is all about the druids' weakness for Nightmare, but tell me. If Khadgar had faced Xavius, who would have won? Jaina? Velen? Gul'Dan in his usual form (not a hulk)? Do you really think that any of them would have a chance against him simply because they are not druids?

  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Illidan did not draw strength from the Reliquary, and by the time of the duel with Arthas, he had already adapted to his power.
    Arthas was not just a Death Knight, Ner'Zhul gave him all his power for this duel and without this help Arthas would have lost.
    That is, according to your logic, Azshara, Illidan and Arthas are on the same level? Interesting opinion
    According to the "Illidan" novel, he did actually gain power from the Reliquary of Souls and used it both for his own purposes and to sever the connection of his demonic servants from the Legion. In the same novel, he was described to have been acclimated to the power of the Skull well after his duel with Arthas and return to Outland proper. Regardless of being fed power by Ner'zhul, Arthas was still a Death Knight at this time - he didn't become Lich King until after he donned the Helm and expunged the lingering consciousness of Ner'zhul.

    I would put Azshara, Illidan, and Arthas on the same tier, sure - not necessarily saying they're all 100% the same power-level, because that's not really how power works. I'd put Lei Shen and the August Celestials on the same general tier.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    What does it mean apparently? Sargeras caught all the demons that invaded the universe and established order in the universe. Do you want to tell me that Mannoroth did not invade the Universe or that Sargeras did not care about the Annihilian king? No need to give your headcanon for canon and continue to live in fantasy.
    He didn't imprison all demons. Their invasions became less frequent but there were still more demons in the universe. Now you create a headcanon.

    We can. Ulthalesh is stronger than Mannoroth. Also in the quest ''The Black Tome'' were mentioned Fel Lords, which even the Legion was afraid to summon.
    I forgot about these Fel Lords. Well, they are indeed stronger but we haven't seen them so far. They may be titan level so I give you that point.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    He didn't imprison all demons. Their invasions became less frequent but there were still more demons in the universe. Now you create a headcanon.


    I forgot about these Fel Lords. Well, they are indeed stronger but we haven't seen them so far. They may be titan level so I give you that point.
    Can you prove that Mannoroth was not on Mardum?

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