[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Granyala]

The idea that someone would think that they are carrying a group in the above situation (14-16 minute vs 12 minute run) is asinine

Preaching to the Choir here (but you probably know that already).
I've met these people. I had them in my raiding guilds (thankfully not in leading positions). They would obsess over the tiniest differences in DPS and call others bad.
These are the same people that raged on when we wanted to extend the ID for progress because they would not get another shot at their WF bracers or ring.

Ignoring them seems to work best.

Personally, I don't look at a stopwatch in a dungeon. The dungeon takes as long as it takes, if I want a fast run, I queue with friends and destroy stuff.

[Katchii]

Preaching to the Choir here (but you probably know that already).
I've met these people. I had them in my raiding guilds (thankfully not in leading positions). They would obsess over the tiniest differences in DPS and call others bad.
These are the same people that raged on when we wanted to extend the ID for progress because they would not get another shot at their WF bracers or ring.

Ignoring them seems to work best.

Personally, I don't look at a stopwatch in a dungeon. The dungeon takes as long as it takes, if I want a fast run, I queue with friends and destroy stuff.

Yeah, I ignore these people mostly.

I'm comfortable in the fact that I know I can and do pull my weight. To what exact degree I can't say for sure as I don't use ACT. I tried but honestly found it too much effort to install and set-up for something I'd only use as FYI type information anyway. I'm pretty competent when it comes to mods and basic PC stuff and I spent ~3 hours one day trying to get it to work, watching videos and troubleshooting, and it never did. I don't care enough about it to spend more time than that.

The kind of people who would shit on people like me, who pull their weight, put in effort to learn their job and gear out their characters in respectable gear (tomestone gear, or at least highest ilevel dungeon gear available until able to get a full tomestone set) with materia, etc...and therefore likely perform above average can shove it.

[Granyala]

I'm pretty competent when it comes to mods and basic PC stuff and I spent ~3 hours one day trying to get it to work, watching videos and troubleshooting, and it never did. I don't care enough about it to spend more time than that.

Oo
Let me guess: forgot to create the rule in the firewall or didn't launch as admin.
ACT can be pretty finnicky at times but it shouldn't take that long to get it going.

Only other scenario I can imagine is that you tried shortly after a patch was deployed. ACT is usually non functional for a few days after every patch.

I used ACT (and FFlogs) regularly when raiding, very helpful but in dungeons... meh. Does stuff die quickly? Then everyone is pulling their weight appropriately. Does it drag out endlessly? Some slacker has been detected... just Netflix it on the second screen. Recruiting replacements is PITA in this game anyway.

[Katchii]

Oo
Let me guess: forgot to create the rule in the firewall or didn't launch as admin.
ACT can be pretty finnicky at times but it shouldn't take that long to get it going.

Only other scenario I can imagine is that you tried shortly after a patch was deployed. ACT is usually non functional for a few days after every patch.

I used ACT (and FFlogs) regularly when raiding, very helpful but in dungeons... meh. Does stuff die quickly? Then everyone is pulling their weight appropriately. Does it drag out endlessly? Some slacker has been detected... just Netflix it on the second screen. Recruiting replacements is PITA in this game anyway.

I don't remember it being being near a patch release, but I guess it's possible.

I tried all the normal firewall stuff, and setting up the location where it reads from and all that. Watched multiple set-up videos and tried what they were saying and still didn't work right. I got the overlay on the screen but it wasn't logging anything and the actual ACT screen was massively distracting and since it wasn't logging anything I couldn't really fidget with it to get it to look the way I wanted or do what I wanted it to do.

It's a curiosity for me, I don't care about it, but thought it would be cool to see how I was doing.

And yeah, recruiting replacements usually takes longer than just suffering through the dungeon...at least for tanks and healers. DPS are a dime a dozen, but CAN take a while sometimes and wouldn't be worth it to replace in those situations.

[Granyala]

Ah okay I never bothered with any kind of overlay, because I am the kind of person that foregoes displaying non relevant information on my game screen. I also never had recount visible during a bossfight.

Later on, ACT was only there to log, I only looked at fflogs, because I was used to it's design from Warcraftlogs.

[Katchii]

Ah okay I never bothered with any kind of overlay, because I am the kind of person that foregoes displaying non relevant information on my game screen. I also never had recount visible during a bossfight.

Later on, ACT was only there to log, I only looked at fflogs, because I was used to it's design from Warcraftlogs.

I like seeing the numbers in real time, since i don't care nearly enough about it to go look up or parse the information separately after the fighting is done. Also, seeing it real time allows me to adjust on the fly if I need to.

Anyway. I'm looking forward to the patch next week. I'll be out of town the day of and day after which sucks but it's not like I rush into this kind of thing anyway. New story content from both the MSQ and raid will be nice.

[Granyala]

Also, seeing it real time allows me to adjust on the fly if I need to.

Sorry to sound harsh but that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Seeing DPS/HPS in real time is of no benefit at all.

As a healer, how much DPS you can do is dictated by the groups performance (a.k.a. how much you are forced to heal beyond the unavoidable damage). If you co healer is slacking/healing aggressively, you will notice that easily w/o ACT and adjust accordingly.

As a DPS there is close to never a reason to hold back. You go full throttle all the time, if you don't you're doing it wrong.
Only exception would be an encounter where you have to save up CDs for some burst phase, ACT doesn't help you with that, these phases are predictable either way. Aggro should be a non issue if your tanks are competent.

Same applies to tanks, really, esp since they removed the choice between defense and offense in ShB.

The most important aspect is aligning group cooldowns (fat chance of that happening in PuGs) and seeing to it, that the CDs are used at times when the boss won't hinder half the raid from benefiting.

[Katchii]

Sorry to sound harsh but that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Seeing DPS/HPS in real time is of no benefit at all.

I'm not talking about fine tuning against the perfect performance sim or whatever. I keep tabs on myself in games with a damage meter enough to know where I should be performing and what my output could be. It's more of a self check rather than a comparison to the ideal, though I do try and match those logs as well.

Knowing I was doing 10k here last time, and only doing 8k this time means I need to adjust something.

What you're saying is true, but that's not what I was applying it to. Not fine tuning group performance to be as ideal as possible, but a self check to know whether I'm pulling my weight as best as I can.

[Granyala]

Knowing I was doing 10k here last time, and only doing 8k this time means I need to adjust something.

There shouldn't be anything you can adjust mid fight. Oo
Adjusting and increasing the output would mean that you deliberately held back up to that point or that you were asleep at the wheel.

In these games, playing as a DPS is pretty much 1 do it correctly or 0 do it incorrectly.

I get personal record breaking etc but it is my experience that every glance I take at the DPS numbers mid fight is taking focus off potential fatal mechanics or what I am actually doing. That's why I prefer do analyze data after the fact, when I have time to take a closer look at my performance (Only do that with mythic/Savage fights).

Maybe you are better than me when it comes to not getting distracted. I'm not the youngest kitten on the block, so I prefer to limit the information displayed down to the necessary bits.

[Katchii]

There shouldn't be anything you can adjust mid fight. Oo
Adjusting and increasing the output would mean that you deliberately held back up to that point or that you were asleep at the wheel.

In these games, playing as a DPS is pretty much 1 do it correctly or 0 do it incorrectly.

I get personal record breaking etc but it is my experience that every glance I take at the DPS numbers mid fight is taking focus off potential fatal mechanics or what I am actually doing. That's why I prefer do analyze data after the fact, when I have time to take a closer look at my performance (Only do that with mythic/Savage fights).

Maybe you are better than me when it comes to not getting distracted. I'm not the youngest kitten on the block, so I prefer to limit the information displayed down to the necessary bits.

All fair points. Remember, the content I'm always doing is the normal not-so-difficult stuff so I'm not really worried about potentially fatal mechanics or the kind of thing you'd run into in Savage level content. I don't research and SIM and practice and verify and tweak my game play and gear before setting foot in dungeons. So what I'm talking about is checking my performance against myself, making small changes to rotation or cooldown usage, how many oGCD skills to try and weave, etc... because I don't perform perfectly...I don't even know what that means in most cases. I just look at what the average class DPS is, see where I fall, compare it to what I'm doing and go from there. I didn't necessarily mean I do it literally in the middle of the fight, but in dungeons I'll definitely do it in between bosses or trash packs.

I don't agree with correct vs incorrect being the only options, though. Optimal vs not optimal, maybe. Sure, I can understand it if you're holding to the standard of a perfect SIM and/or rotation and saying that if they're not meeting that then they're not doing it "right" but that's an unrealistic expectation anyway.

[Granyala]

I don't agree with correct vs incorrect being the only options, though. Optimal vs not optimal, maybe. Sure, I can understand it if you're holding to the standard of a perfect SIM and/or rotation and saying that if they're not meeting that then they're not doing it "right" but that's an unrealistic expectation anyway.

No, what I am saying is: in MMOs like WoW or FF-XIV, there (sadly) is only one way to play a spec/class correctly and achieve maximum output. Deviate from that and you are deliberately (or unconsciously) gimping yourself.

As for trash pulls in dungeons: I find the DPS of these to be highly sensitive on where I am in my rotation/CD phases. Sometimes I have my trances available for a trash group and sometimes I don't. Difference in DPS is pretty massive at times (faceroller SMN here). It's not much of a problem as WHM though.

BTW: you should always weave oGCDs when possible. Sadly these skills are not performed instantly, so in order to get rid of the induced delay, you use them after a non cast GCD spell.

[Wrecktangle]

The most important aspect is aligning group cooldowns (fat chance of that happening in PuGs) and seeing to it, that the CDs are used at times when the boss won't hinder half the raid from benefiting.

With respect to DPS, the order of DPS gaining metrics is: Maximizing CPM, then lining up cooldowns, then maximizing oGCD usage, however individual usage varies much more. I.e. If you're doing 94% of your max CPM, but only using 70% of your oGCDs, but aligning 4/5 of your raid buffs, then oGCDs is the easy fix and most impactful in this players situation. This is why FFLogs (and also ACT) is so important because this data is easily identifiable.

That said, ACT has a special spell timer plugin that is immeasurably valuable. It is like weakauras in presentation in that I can see what raid buffs our party has, the duration (if active), the cooldown if inactive, and whether or not it's currently ready.

It let's me remind people to use their buffs after a wipe/pull or hold my cooldown if I see others coming up (especially as fights desync the cooldowns sometimes). Nearly 75% of RDM's pop Embolden either stupidly late (selfish), or they pop it OOR of the entire melee team, with minimal benefit. Without ACT and the special spell timers I'd have no idea I wasn't getting embolden because there's no way I'm looking at the shitty ass buff bar for each buff that intently.

No, what I am saying is: in MMOs like WoW or FF-XIV, there (sadly) is only one way to play a spec/class correctly and achieve maximum output. Deviate from that and you are deliberately (or unconsciously) gimping yourself.

You're dismissing some nuance though. I SIM myself occasionally when I was raiding last tier, and something might be a 2% DPS gain ST, but it requires me to use a talent that I don't care for, or an essence that I find cumbersome, or maybe dual on use trinkets.

These are situations where yes technically I'm gimping myself, but it's so insignificant that my playstyle enjoyment matters more, or that downtime/mistakes muddy the differential more. I would still put up oranges with using whatever setup I wanted. Simming was great for identifying synergies that I wasn't aware of, especially with what essences/trinkets benefited say a Crusade (high haste/CPM burst window) vs. say Inquisition (sustained high DPS, but less CPM) vs. DP (random procs).

In FF14, there is only one way to play optimally. Maximize CPM (GCDs and oGCDs aka uptime) and sync cooldowns. It's that shallow. No synergy etc.

[Granyala]

That said, ACT has a special spell timer plugin that is immeasurably valuable. It is like weakauras in presentation in that I can see what raid buffs our party has, the duration (if active), the cooldown if inactive, and whether or not it's currently ready.

In FF14, there is only one way to play optimally.

LOL!
I didn't know ACT could do that. That's almost cheating compared to s/o who plays without it.

I was talking FF-XIV mostly. In WoW, there are certain grey areas, depending on how well an individual copes with a certain spec, suboptimal might still pull ahead. Back in the day, I could not warm up to the COP SPriest playstyle at all but I pulled similar numbers on most fights with other talent choices.

Yep FF-XIVs combat system is very shallow, which is why they give classes so much fake busywork to make them seem complicated. That fake difficulty is also why I can't stand playing DPS. I don't want to juggle 20 skills that each hit like a wet noodle.

[Katchii]

No, what I am saying is: in MMOs like WoW or FF-XIV, there (sadly) is only one way to play a spec/class correctly and achieve maximum output. Deviate from that and you are deliberately (or unconsciously) gimping yourself.

Which again, is a completely unrealistic expectation in games with mechanics that by there very nature require you to adjust your game play so you don't die. Expecting someone to play their class and execute their rotation perfectly in that situation is ridiculous, especially in a randomly put together group through a dungeon/group finder where you not only have to deal with the fight mechanics but also the other players who may or may not execute them the same way you're used to.

I get what you're saying, but I disagree with it emphatically as a mind set, and it's the greatest reason I don't set foot in higher end content. I have full confidence that I could perform that way (after the appropriate amount of time learning and practicing) but I have less than zero desire to deal with all the bullshit that comes with it.

As for trash pulls in dungeons: I find the DPS of these to be highly sensitive on where I am in my rotation/CD phases. Sometimes I have my trances available for a trash group and sometimes I don't. Difference in DPS is pretty massive at times (faceroller SMN here). It's not much of a problem as WHM though.

Completely agreed, but finding where the sweet spot is in your rotation is where that comes into play. Some classes don't really have a sweet spot like that. Summoner is one of the worst offenders here because of their build up to Bahamut and Pheonix, but others like Red Mage, Dancer and in my experience Samurai don't really suffer from that as their core rotation remains the same with very little build up, they just might have a cooldown they could use to give a little boost.

BTW: you should always weave oGCDs when possible. Sadly these skills are not performed instantly, so in order to get rid of the induced delay, you use them after a non cast GCD spell.

Oh I know, the question wasn't IF I should use them, but HOW MANY should I be weaving? There was a time at the beginning of Shadowbringers where triple weaving oGCD on Summoner was a DPS gain even though it clipped into your rotation, and the optimal number for Machinist was weaving 2 oGCD abilities between each action during Wildfire. I wanted to know if I could actually even do those things without making my fingers fall off and whether my internet connection would even allow it, and how much impact there was to my performance if I didn't.

[Granyala]

Which again, is a completely unrealistic expectation in games with mechanics that by there very nature require you to adjust your game play so you don't die. Expecting someone to play their class and execute their rotation perfectly in that situation is ridiculous.

I should have been more precise in my wording:
I am speaking of the conceptual play of a class. There is only one way to play a BLM correctly. There are no 5 ways, choose one of your fancy (a.k.a ice mage, DoT mage, Fire burst mage, non Enochian mage etc).

Obviously, any encounter will to whatever it can to hinder you from performing like you would on a dummy, a good player manages to keep his rotation as intact as possible but humans will always have some error quota when put on the spot. And that's okay, after all the encounters are designed with enough leeway in mind to compensate for that. Play your class at 80 - 85% and most savage bosses will go down rather easily.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh I know, the question wasn't IF I should use them, but HOW MANY should I be weaving?

Ah, yes, that makes sense. I find that weaving 2 is already a challenge, considering the servers lame ass repsonse time.

[Katchii]

I should have been more precise in my wording:
I am speaking of the conceptual play of a class. There is only one way to play a BLM correctly. There are no 5 ways, choose one of your fancy (a.k.a ice mage, DoT mage, Fire burst mage, non Enochian mage etc).

Obviously, any encounter will to whatever it can to hinder you from performing like you would on a dummy, a good player manages to keep his rotation as intact as possible but humans will always have some error quota when put on the spot. And that's okay, after all the encounters are designed with enough leeway in mind to compensate for that. Play your class at 80 - 85% and most savage bosses will go down rather easily.

Fair enough. I'll agree that there is one "correct" way to play a class to optimize their performance, at least in FFXIV because of how they designed the classes to play.

Ah, yes, that makes sense. I find that weaving 2 is already a challenge, considering the servers lame ass repsonse time.

Yup. I usually tend to avoid doing things that intentionally frustrate me unless the pay off is worth it to me. As we've already stated, the content I consume doesn't require anywhere near top tier performance to eke out every ounce of DPS or healing or whatever. So if I lose ~5% or whatever performance but I enjoy playing 100% more... that's a worthwhile payoff to me.

[Granyala]

So if I lose ~5% or whatever performance but I enjoy playing 100% more... that's a worthwhile payoff to me.

Sure, I think and operate the same way.
Typically, these 5% only matter in world first scenarios anyway. Never had a problem with any mythic or savage boss with the above mindset.

As for weaving: I do weave whenever possible but I only use 1 skill per window. That way it is guaranteed to work and it's not much of a hassle.

[Katchii]

As for weaving: I do weave whenever possible but I only use 1 skill per window. That way it is guaranteed to work and it's not much of a hassle.

Same, in my example I was just seeing if I could even pull off fitting 2 or more oGCDs...turns out I can't, at least not consistently. Once I figured that out, Machinist was WAY more enjoyable to play.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Method will be covering the new race to world first for Eden.

[Rogalicus]

Method will be covering the new race to world first for Eden.

All the one day it lasts.