Did the blood elves oppose burning Teldrassil?

[Minikin]

Decapitating him entirely, apparently; at least according to what he says during the Warfront. I don't think a rematch is going to end any differently for him, either.

Yea I always thought that was odd cuz it mentions a throat crush but his dialogue sources decapitation.

[Khaza-R]

Never understood why Blizz thought that blood elfs joining the horde was a good thing. Bloof elfs didnt like trolls even though it was the amani that attacked them. The orcs even assaulted silvermoon city, here I get why blood efls would never get into the horde, but meh blizzard has no consistency.

Blood Elf story as a whole was a huge let down in the TBC.

All this build up with Kael for him to just be tossed in as a raid boss.

[Aucald]

Yea I always thought that was odd cuz it mentions a throat crush but his dialogue sources decapitation.

Might be poetic license on Lorash's part - he's not really one to extend Malfurion the benefit of the doubt and would probably paint him in the worst manner possible, given his existing grudge. Can't say Lorash didn't earn his punishment, though.

[Frinata]

Technically though, all the Horde leadership, with the exception of Gallywix, is a traitor then, since they all stood at the gates of Orgrimmar and went against their Warchiefs will. Twice, as the same happened with Garrosh. The Blood Oath either applies to everyone or no one, Baine and Saurfang should not be counted as the only Traitors. Hell even the non-loyalist PCs are Traitors, twice over.
And don't start with "Baine killed Horde members tho", each and every one of them did, the Horde PC did during the SoO raid. The NPCs there were the loyal Horde members, you killed them, you are a Traitor.

Also as we have seen in the Mak'gora that happened no one could have beaten Sylvanas and they knew it. Sure Baine could have challenged her and died. A spectacular suicide but quite pointless. Especially since she had already threatened his people during the Siege of Lordaeron there was no sense in going that route.

You're not wrong in that sense. When Garrosh was in charge, there were alot of traitors at the start, but then the coin flipped. Garrosh betrayed the Horde.

In example, if I became President of the United States, and removed every single state except California, is it still the United States? It isn't.

Much the same with what Garrosh did with the Horde. Garrosh betrayed them through his exclusions, his over all actions, and the like. It is very possible for traitors to be 'absolved' when their choices weren't just for petty reasons. Vol'jin was kicked out simply for sticking up for what he believed in, and even had an assassination attempt on him, simply because Garrosh wanted a yes-man, rather then genuine advice. Baine followed suit shortly thereafter because he respects Vol'jin more then Garrosh, mostly because of what happened with Theramore, though. Once Vol'jin was Warchief, he forgave both Garrosh's followers (to a degree), and those who were accused of treason by Garrosh.

Fast forward to Sylvanas' tenure, and... Where did they really stand? Sylvanas never excluded anyone, nor did she (outwardly) betray the Horde right up until the end. I won't deny that she ultimately was bad news and that Baine and them were in the right for what they did, but there was no real... Symptoms. Just Baine and Saurfang being sad that the Horde isn't being led in the way THEY would like to see it led.

War rarely has honour. Saurfang's view of the world is idealistic, but idealistic only, not realistic. Baine's only real actions in the War was to question Sylvanas at every step, and then balk at any form of agression towards the Alliance, to the point of actually betraying the Horde. The Champion (Player) took great risk onto themselves to gather a person of interest, and while, yes, the purpose of this person was to commit a Theramore 2.0, it would of put the Horde in a position of power again over the Alliance after what they did to Zandalar. But Baine betrayed them by delivering him to Jaina, for no real reason other then he disagreed with it as a person. If he disagreed with it that much, he knew what to do. Sure, he'd of lost the Mok'gora, but that doesn't mean, nessecarily, that he dies.

Sylvanas at that point needs the Horde. Her goal is to sew as much death as she can, for which ever reason we learn for in the Shadowlands. If she kills Baine, she absolutely loses the Tauren, and likely the Highmountain as well, and that begins a ripple effect early. She knows what she's doing is temporary, that eventually, things reach a natural end point. If the Horde wins the war, it's in her interests, but the problem is, all of the Horde would expect a cease of hostility at that point. The Alliance is powerless. And that's where things get hard. Because much of the honourable Horde wouldn't just out right murder innocents who aren't a threat to them anymore, Sylvanas can't directly call for that. She would instead have to do things with her own loyal people (Likely just the Forsaken), and then when it's found out that she's wiping out the Alliance in their entirety, the Horde turns against her then and there. She can't get to that point if she loses control of the Horde too soon (Which does eventually happen anyways, but she makes the best of it.)

Sylvanas' story is... Troubling. It's not that well written in the games, and theres clear evidence of rewrites that break continuity and story flow. But if you're able to sift through it all, you can start to understand the nature of chess that she played.

[Yarathir]

I mean, refusing her at that time would mean death - dictators don't generally allow you to exercise free will

True. The Horde only gets the courage to oppose a dictator when that dictator calls them "nothing", not when that dictator has them genociding noncombatants.

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Christie Golden's very special touch to the genre, I admit.

It's ridiculously bad writing from a thematic point of view though and shows complete lack of understanding of:
a) history
b) the setting of Azeroth
c) the origin of 'war crimes' as a concept

It is your own choice if you wish to adhere to Christie Golden's interpretations of the world, which are frankly extremely out-of-place, forcing modern liberal ideologies into a genre that never had them before, but I personally reject them as unsuitable for the genre.

I may not like Christie Golden, but it takes some guts to jump into a thread talking about objective events and the in-universe judgment of those events and to apply your headcanon because you believe that in "your real warcraft", nobody would blink at a population being genocided, countless civilians burned alive in a war.

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No, they did not. Blizzard does not have time to put in story details. Not when they can just Disneyify everything and only have 5 leading characters spewing cheesy anime dialogue tropes at one another, and call that a story.

Hey, my inner thoughts about WoW lore and story in recent times (especially) came to life and made an MMO-Champion account.

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War crime by who's standards? Ours in real life? Azeroth is a different world and a different standard. You guys should really give up on the whole pushing real life morality onto fictional worlds (Game of Thrones, WoW etc. )

Which is funny, considering the actual universe looks at it as genocide and a war crime, which means it's not other people pushing real life morality onto fictional worlds, but you trying hard to detach the morality of a fictional world from it by claiming fictional worlds have no moral standards, simply because it's hard to argue why a genocide is justifiable (impossible, really), so let's just wish the entire notion of genocide from the topic at all so we don't have to tackle it

I love how often I see this line of thought that shifts the burden.

"Teldrassil was a genocide and a war crime."
"Uhm it's a fictional universe. They don't necessarily share our moral values."
"Yes, but here's canon evidence that genocides and war crimes are an established thing, and bad."
"I just can't with you people, constantly pushing your morals on a fictional universe that doesn't have any because I say so!"

[Rozz]

Did they oppose oppressing the Kaldorei and having control over their resources? No.
Were they against the burning? I can't say really. Blizzard never properly gave a reaction for any of that. I know they weren't planning on it and the "Horde" population praised Sylvanas' success as a warlord, but the slaughter? That's a 404 in the mortality code.

They wrote it in the strangest way.
I dunno, it's like words meant nothing this expansion. Their attempts at dynamic storytelling are just contradictory and don't come together to fix anything. They just...moved on.

[Yarathir]

Of course you're not wrong though - I'm certain plenty of Horde, even shamans - supported the burning after the fact - apart from druids, I can't imagine ANY horde druids would be happy destroying the world tree

Honestly, I don't have all my events in order because I've become disillusioned and I don't feel particularly tempted to get deep into material outside of the main game, but I know the general gist of what happened.

With that context in mind: I think the druids were sent to Silithus to help with healing the wound? Which was spun as a ruse to get them out of the way and start a war?

My issue with the Horde in both MoP and BfA is that they start opposing their tyrannical dictator when it bites them in the ass, only. Not out of moral standards. In MoP, there wasn't really any notable rebellion until Vol'jin's attempted assassination and Garrosh's subsequent mindset of an Orcish Horde.

In BfA, there wasn't really any notable rebellion until Baine was imprisoned, and even then, by the time of 8.2.5's war campaign "finale", it's stated over and over again that the remaining Alliance forces and Saurfang's rebellion put together were vastly outnumbered and outgunned, and that this was basically a last-ditch desperate effort. Of course, I have my issues with how that is framed, but that is still how it is framed, whether I like it or not.

Now I begrudgingly have to accept there is slight improvement in comparison to MoP in that at least there were mutterings of displeasure early on. Saurfang left the Horde, Baine was pretty much permanently scowling at Sylvanas, Thalyssra and I think Valtrois made mention of how they felt uncertain about it all, too and hell, even Nathanos seemed to have his moments of introspection. Lor'themar gave us his views in 8.2 as well. But just feeling bad about something, like a genocide, like the blighting of your own soldiers and raising them as mindless undead servants, like the plaguing of zones, resurrection and brainwashing of people to turn them against their own family, it isn't enough.

There is a price that ought to be paid for being complicit, for inaction. And not only did a good heap of the Horde not do anything for the longest time, they continued serving that leader until they were called "nothing", helping her achieve perhaps the next Burning of Teldrassil.

[Aucald]

Honestly, I don't have all my events in order because I've become disillusioned and I don't feel particularly tempted to get deep into material outside of the main game, but I know the general gist of what happened.

With that context in mind: I think the druids were sent to Silithus to help with healing the wound? Which was spun as a ruse to get them out of the way and start a war?

My issue with the Horde in both MoP and BfA is that they start opposing their tyrannical dictator when it bites them in the ass, only. Not out of moral standards. In MoP, there wasn't really any notable rebellion until Vol'jin's attempted assassination and Garrosh's subsequent mindset of an Orcish Horde.

In BfA, there wasn't really any notable rebellion until Baine was imprisoned, and even then, by the time of 8.2.5's war campaign "finale", it's stated over and over again that the remaining Alliance forces and Saurfang's rebellion put together were vastly outnumbered and outgunned, and that this was basically a last-ditch desperate effort. Of course, I have my issues with how that is framed, but that is still how it is framed, whether I like it or not.

Now I begrudgingly have to accept there is slight improvement in comparison to MoP in that at least there were mutterings of displeasure early on. Saurfang left the Horde, Baine was pretty much permanently scowling at Sylvanas, Thalyssra and I think Valtrois made mention of how they felt uncertain about it all, too and hell, even Nathanos seemed to have his moments of introspection. Lor'themar gave us his views in 8.2 as well. But just feeling bad about something, like a genocide, like the blighting of your own soldiers and raising them as mindless undead servants, like the plaguing of zones, resurrection and brainwashing of people to turn them against their own family, it isn't enough.

There is a price that ought to be paid for being complicit, for inaction. And not only did a good heap of the Horde not do anything for the longest time, they continued serving that leader until they were called "nothing", helping her achieve perhaps the next Burning of Teldrassil.

It could also be that Sylvanas used the controversy surrounding Teldrassil to sell the act to Horde Druids after the fact - as Teldrassil itself was a product of Fandral Staghelm's own pride and an attempt to give the Night Elves back what they'd lost in the Third War with the near-destruction of Nordrassil (namely immortality and immnity to disease). A lot of Druids didn't support Staghelm's proposition even when the Tree was created, and given Staghelm's own fate later it's possible many more decided it was an error in judgment from the get-go.

No idea if this is the case, but it's certainly a way Sylvanas could sell it to her own people if she were of a mind to.

[Yarathir]

Did they oppose oppressing the Kaldorei and having control over their resources? No.
Were they against the burning? I can't say really. Blizzard never properly gave a reaction for any of that. I know they weren't planning on it and the "Horde" population praised Sylvanas' success as a warlord, but the slaughter? That's a 404 in the mortality code.

They wrote it in the strangest way.
I dunno, it's like words meant nothing this expansion. Their attempts at dynamic storytelling are just contradictory and don't come together to fix anything. They just...moved on.

This is because for all the hubhub they made about the Burning of Teldrassil, and the intrigue they tried to manifest before it happened, it was really not meant to be explored in any respectful way.

The near-extermination of the night elves was framed more so as a moment of grief, regret and introspection for Saurfang to lead into the cinematics that we got. The little the night elves did get was borderline insulting. Tyrande the supposed vengeful avatar of a darkened Elune sees one of the guys in charge of destroying her homelands and just freezes him in place so that the Horde can free him later. To serve as an "example".

After undergoing what is supposed to be le epik super risky anime ritual to become the Night Warrior, she kills or incapacitates a few undead, confronts Nathanos and two val'kyr, manages to kill one (1) val'kyr with the help of the world's greatest archdruid who can summon natural disasters but somehow prefers to maul people as a bear. Nathanos, then flies off with the remaining val'kyr and the newly raised soldiers who made a convenient heel-turn to serve the person and the faction who nearly exterminated their people all while gloating at Tyrande.

What then follows is the warfront focused on the strong and amazing night elves winning back the lands that were theirs to begin with.

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It could also be that Sylvanas used the controversy surrounding Teldrassil to sell the act to Horde Druids after the fact - as Teldrassil itself was a product of Fandral Staghelm's own pride and an attempt to give the Night Elves back what they'd lost in the Third War with the near-destruction of Nordrassil (namely immortality and immnity to disease). A lot of Druids didn't support Staghelm's proposition even when the Tree was created, and given Staghelm's own fate later it's possible many more decided it was an error in judgment from the get-go.

No idea if this is the case, but it's certainly a way Sylvanas could sell it to her own people if she were of a mind to.

Hard to say. The tauren seem to have an okay relationship with the night elves, at least through the Cenarion Circle. They may have their thoughts about Teldrassil, but I doubt it would be enough for them to mentally justify wiping it and everyone on it out.

[formerShandalay]

It could also be that Sylvanas used the controversy surrounding Teldrassil to sell the act to Horde Druids after the fact - as Teldrassil itself was a product of Fandral Staghelm's own pride and an attempt to give the Night Elves back what they'd lost in the Third War with the near-destruction of Nordrassil (namely immortality and immnity to disease). A lot of Druids didn't support Staghelm's proposition even when the Tree was created, and given Staghelm's own fate later it's possible many more decided it was an error in judgment from the get-go.

No idea if this is the case, but it's certainly a way Sylvanas could sell it to her own people if she were of a mind to.

Maybe to her own people, yes. But I'm not sure about the druids. Hamuul Runetotem was there when the tree was cleansed and helped with it, the Green and Red Aspect blessed the tree, which binds it to life and the Emerald Dream. I don't think any druid can just ignore that.

But as someone else wrote, Sylvanas made a point to show her support for Magni's request and efforts by sending the Tauren (above all Hamuul) that wanted to help heal the world to Silithus. Baine was left behind, but not told what was going to happen and also not invited for the "march of the army to Silithus" (which then marched to Ashenvale instead).

[Aucald]

Maybe to her own people, yes. But I'm not sure about the druids. Hamuul Runetotem was there when the tree was cleansed and helped with it, the Green and Red Aspect blessed the tree, which binds it to life and the Emerald Dream. I don't think any druid can just ignore that.

But as someone else wrote, Sylvanas made a point to show her support for Magni's request and efforts by sending the Tauren (above all Hamuul) that wanted to help heal the world to Silithus. Baine was left behind, but not told what was going to happen and also not invited for the "march of the army to Silithus" (which then marched to Ashenvale instead).

The Druids as a whole, no; it's doubtful they'd buy such a retort unless they already put partisanship over their general stewardship of Azeroth. But given Hamuul and most of the other Cenarion-aligned Druids focus on Silithus she could probably discount them entirely, knowing they were already distracted with other concerns. To the rest of the rank and file she could probably peddle the above as a plausible fiction, more or less.

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Hard to say. The tauren seem to have an okay relationship with the night elves, at least through the Cenarion Circle. They may have their thoughts about Teldrassil, but I doubt it would be enough for them to mentally justify wiping it and everyone on it out.

In general I would agree - although some Tauren may still be Horde partisans above their affiliation with the Cenarion Circle. Difficult to say where the Troll Druids fall given their relative distance from the Cenarion Circle.

[Rozz]

This is because for all the hubhub they made about the Burning of Teldrassil, and the intrigue they tried to manifest before it happened, it was really not meant to be explored in any respectful way.

The near-extermination of the night elves was framed more so as a moment of grief, regret and introspection for Saurfang to lead into the cinematics that we got. The little the night elves did get was borderline insulting. Tyrande the supposed vengeful avatar of a darkened Elune sees one of the guys in charge of destroying her homelands and just freezes him in place so that the Horde can free him later. To serve as an "example".

After undergoing what is supposed to be le epik super risky anime ritual to become the Night Warrior, she kills or incapacitates a few undead, confronts Nathanos and two val'kyr, manages to kill one (1) val'kyr with the help of the world's greatest archdruid who can summon natural disasters but somehow prefers to maul people as a bear. Nathanos, then flies off with the remaining val'kyr and the newly raised soldiers who made a convenient heel-turn to serve the person and the faction who nearly exterminated their people all while gloating at Tyrande.

What then follows is the warfront focused on the strong and amazing night elves winning back the lands that were theirs to begin with.

I like how you phrased that, because it certainly came across that way.

As for the rest, I agree entirely.

[Yarathir]

I like how you phrased that, because it certainly came across that way.

As for the rest, I agree entirely.

That's sadly how it is, and I can't pretend it is otherwise. The night elves were supposedly wiped out and rather than focusing on how the victims deal with that blow and come to peace with the loss of their family and friends, we focus on how that affects the perpetrators, specifically Saurfang, who was sad that he was fooled into participating in another genocide, since he still feels sad over the last time, when he nearly wiped out all the draenei that remained. Cue several film-quality cinematics focusing on the different stages of Saurfang being sad.

Yeah, I know I sound cynical, but I really can't muster a more positive outlook at how that was handled.

[Minikin]

Of course you're not wrong though - I'm certain plenty of Horde, even shamans - supported the burning after the fact - apart from druids, I can't imagine ANY horde druids would be happy destroying the world tree

I can't recall but someone also said the shamans empowered the catapult projectiles launching into the tree? Not sure how true it is cuz I personally haven't read it.

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This is because for all the hubhub they made about the Burning of Teldrassil, and the intrigue they tried to manifest before it happened, it was really not meant to be explored in any respectful way.

The near-extermination of the night elves was framed more so as a moment of grief, regret and introspection for Saurfang to lead into the cinematics that we got. The little the night elves did get was borderline insulting. Tyrande the supposed vengeful avatar of a darkened Elune sees one of the guys in charge of destroying her homelands and just freezes him in place so that the Horde can free him later. To serve as an "example".

After undergoing what is supposed to be le epik super risky anime ritual to become the Night Warrior, she kills or incapacitates a few undead, confronts Nathanos and two val'kyr, manages to kill one (1) val'kyr with the help of the world's greatest archdruid who can summon natural disasters but somehow prefers to maul people as a bear. Nathanos, then flies off with the remaining val'kyr and the newly raised soldiers who made a convenient heel-turn to serve the person and the faction who nearly exterminated their people all while gloating at Tyrande.

What then follows is the warfront focused on the strong and amazing night elves winning back the lands that were theirs to begin with.

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Hard to say. The tauren seem to have an okay relationship with the night elves, at least through the Cenarion Circle. They may have their thoughts about Teldrassil, but I doubt it would be enough for them to mentally justify wiping it and everyone on it out.

You are so right. I really hope they give some explanation at least for the undead rogues you encounter in tyrande's quest. They clearly know something when they say things like "death is the only way" "the horde will always be hers" and other such stuff.

[FuxieDK]

>Tyrande
>turned to the dark side

What are you smoking?

Oh.... You haven't played the Darkshire quest line?

[Yarathir]

Oh.... You haven't played the Darkshire quest line?

No, I haven't played the Darkshire questline.

But I have played the Darkshore questline, and Tyrande doesn't turn to the dark side there.

[sillag]

its unlikely any blood elves opposed the burning of teldrassil for many reasons.

1. simply just by going by what blizzard showed us, we saw many blood elves who were either all for the ethnic cleansing of kalimdor, e.g. lorash, or who were 100% invested in the war with the alliance and can safely be assumed to have no significant objections, e.g. lady liadrin, or the sunreaver guy you fight when you save baine from the fascists. meanwhile, we saw zero blood elves oppose the burning of teldrassil, or even sylvanas at all, until lor'themar did his 11th hour loyalty turn (which as u remember took the warchief literally attempting to kill him by dumping his ship into nazjatar).

2. the blood elves are a part of the horde, a fascist military dictatorship based on unswerving loyalty to the current dictator-for-life. each blood elf explicitly swears to be a "weapon of the warchief" as part of their citizenship. frankly, if blood elf culture had the morals to be against genocide, they would not be in the horde. it would be very strange and out of character for a blood elf to question their state's genocidal policy, and sure you can say "but teldrassil is just like quel'thalas, they'd recognise that" but sadly as real world history shows us, fascists are somewhat lacking in empathy. of course all of this only applies to silvermoon blood elves; as we saw valeera sanguinar opposed the war, but notably she is unaffiliated with silvermoon, largely due to silvermoon being affiliated with the horde.

3. blood elf culture itself is already rooted deep in themes of nationalism, and firmly against free thought. you see this culture in silvermoon, e.g. dissenters being forcibly reprogrammed by shadow priests to support the state's policies. it's safe to assume that this was not exclusive to when kael'thas was in charge and that lor'themar carried on these traditions, as they were not removed in the sunwell raid patch when other parts of silvermoon were changed. if there were blood elves who were against teldrassil, lor'themar likely had them brainwashed to support his regime; this is likely the reason lor'themar "isn't sure" if the blood elves will support him.

so in short, the only blood elves who would oppose teldrassil or indeed any of the horde's numerous warcrimes would not be part of silvermoon. interestingly, they put these guys in the game, they call them void elves, and one reason they joined the alliance is because they knew that if silvermoon and the horde got their hands on void shit it would be bad news for every free living thing on the planet. its no coincidence that umbric's defining character trait is communism, and the void elves are characterized as radical free-thinkers, which puts them in stark opposition to the fascism of silvermoon and the horde.

[FuxieDK]

No, I haven't played the Darkshire questline.

But I have played the Darkshore questline, and Tyrande doesn't turn to the dark side there.

Darkshire/Darkshore.... iPad autocorrect strikes back..

Well, if you have played the quest line, with your eyes open, you would have noticed she went (if memory serves) Night Warrior. Clearly, this is an even more dark and twisted version of the "normal" evil demeanor of the night elves.

Everyone knows that everything night-themed is inherit evil in nature, but evil can be graded and THIS.....takes the prize.

[Yarathir]

Darkshire/Darkshore.... iPad autocorrect strikes back..

Well, if you have layer the quest line, with your eyes open, you would have noticed she went (if memory serves) Night Warrior. Clearly, this is an even more dark and twisted version of the "normal" evil demeanor of the night elves.

Everyone knows that everything night-themed is inherit evil in nature, but evil can be graded and THIS.....takes the prize.

Okay. Well, I guess she's truly become more evil than the Horde which just got done genociding and brainwashing people, because she just got some goth make up.

[Powerogue]

I'm sure plenty of Blood Elves opposed the ultimate result of the War of Thorns. The ideals of the leaders do not always reflect those of the people. There was at least one Blood Elf in the fighting that wanted nothing more than to slaughter every night elf still breathing until Malf ripped him apart with vines.

With all the barely on topic discussion this seems the closest we have to an answer: One of them was! I know he got rezzed by the val'kyr, and the wiki seems to indicate he's still kicking. https://wow.gamepedia.com/Lorash_Sunbeam Wonder if we'll encounter him again.

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Okay. Well, I guess she's truly become more evil than the Horde which just got done genociding and brainwashing people, because she just got some goth make up.

I mean giving yourself over to vengeance rarely turns out well in the end. Hence Shandris's "come back to us Tyrande, don't let Blizzard make you yet another villain both factions team up against!"

I think it all depends on whether she chills out post-vengeance like Voss or keeps going.