Could something be done to make people tank?

[potis]

How the hell does that guy get into a +12 anyway? DH should be chomping at the bit to interrupt first because of the DPS gain.

Cause +12 is joke content, and 1 interrupt isnt wipe or not if the rest can play, also considering people do judge by raider.io, raider.io doesnt have some sort of runs ratio.

You could play 20h per days and eventually complete a M+ to get your score, without even being near that level, you just have to stick it out.

And since it rewards for non-timed runs, you get the point.

[Kaver]

Cause +12 is joke content, and 1 interrupt isnt wipe or not if the rest can play, also considering people do judge by raider.io, raider.io doesnt have some sort of runs ratio.

You could play 20h per days and eventually complete a M+ to get your score, without even being near that level, you just have to stick it out.

And since it rewards for non-timed runs, you get the point.

That's why I always look at the "number of timed runs in +15-20 bracket" instead of just looking at the score. If I'm looking for a push group then I don't want to invite players who are only interested in completing 1 key each week.

[potis]

That's why I always look at the "number of timed runs in +15-20 bracket" instead of just looking at the score. If I'm looking for a push group then I don't want to invite players who are only interested in completing 1 key each week.

Pretty much how you are supposed to use raider.io if you are pushing, but people dont know how to use it as you can see from the posts on mmo-champion

In the majority i just do keys to help the mega slackers in my guild to get their weekly cause none of those slackers will do it otherwise,or when we all have alts i will never tryhard a much higher key for no reason, +17s once every other semester is fine when we gather up so my raider.io is always hovering anywhere from 1400 to 1600 for the last 4 years.

As a tank that gets spammed to run keys 24/7 for any reason, you dont really give a fuck about raider.io, its 2 phonecalls away and 2 discord messages away to get a group running ;p

But dear god, sometimes when you invite a 2k player that doesnt do basic things, that are really important, as example not interrupting the Watertight Shell in boralus on a fortified week in a +15, and not even purging it, despite having a DISPEL CAPABLE CLASS, or the mending fuckers in Shrine.

My brain melts at how bad people actually are.

And by bad, i mean congratulations, you pressed your abilities and essence and did 120k DPS in the first pack with Azerite beam, then we almost wiped cause you are a shit player, or we lost another 30 seconds cause it healed or something,with the only one having interrupt on cooldown and didnt use it, congratulations shit player.

[Dakara]

This is kind of what's wrong with people today.

EVERYONE in the place should know that information, not just the tank. Allowing DPS to be idiots while expecting tanks to prepare creates a disincentive to tank. So fix the part where DPS are allowed to be morons. Problem solved.

Yes and no.

Most players (i.e. the ones who don't even visit forums) want to learn the game in-game, not study pulls/tactics/interrupts on 3rd party websites etc. M+ actively discourages that due to the timer. DPS/Healers can generally get away with it but the group is doomed if the Tank's planning to learn on the go.

Many players learn pretty early on how toxic M+ is to pug so they either play with friends or chose more forgiving roles.

One could argue this is a player problem, but I'd say it's a design flaw.... certainly at the lower keys anyway.

[Greengrim]

These things are seen when the tank is trash, bad, average, good, excellent or perfect, because no tank can read the mind of the other members of the group and each member of the party have their own concept of what is the perfect tank.

I'm sorry you didn't see that in your experiences.

Except there is no such thing as "concept" in the whole story. The dungeon is just one, and it's the same for everybody. From that point, there is either a properly made run or a failed attempt.

Dungeons are like a dance, and the tank is the cavalier. Everybody knows the steps, but he's the leading side, and if he doesn't make them properly he drags his partner/s down the drain and ruins the whole dance.

[Kaver]

Now potis, clearly you are the best wow-player in the world by reading your comments.

I wish everyone was as good as you, then we would all have 3k rio and CE every tier.

So you need a 3k rio score to be able to use your interrupt abilities and know which mobs to interrupt?

- - - Updated - - -

Most players (i.e. the ones who don't even visit forums) want to learn the game in-game, not study pulls/tactics/interrupts on 3rd party websites etc. M+ actively discourages that due to the timer. DPS/Healers can generally get away with it but the group is doomed if the Tank's planning to learn on the go.

However, personally I believe that the game should mainly be learned in-game. This just requires good game design, which is something Blizzard currently often fail at. There should be more soloable content that teaches players how to use interrupts and utilities, so they can improve and get better in their own pace in a non-toxic environment. This is why I love the Horrific Visions as these have plenty of abilities that you HAVE to interrupt otherwise you are screwed. There should be more content like this so people have a basic understanding of mechanics before they go to M+. Most people just know how to do their dps rotation and that is it.

[Razaron]

I only play shaman, if shaman had a tank spec I'd play it.

[A Chozo]

there is either a properly made run or a failed attempt.

And people wonder why there aren't more tanks.

If the run isn't "properly made" (which of course means perfect in the eyes of some entitled DPS), it's a failure. No in between.

I hope you'll someday understand the concept of this thread.

[Greengrim]

And people wonder why there aren't more tanks.

If the run isn't "properly made" (which of course means perfect in the eyes of some entitled DPS), it's a failure. No in between.

I hope you'll someday understand the concept of this thread.

And I hope you'll someday stop pointlessly defending bad players.

[A Chozo]

And I hope you'll someday stop pointlessly defending bad players.

Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's pointless, or that they are bad.

Read the thread.

[boz0]

Dungeons are like a dance, and the tank is the cavalier. Everybody knows the steps, but he's the leading side, and if he doesn't make them properly he drags his partner/s down the drain and ruins the whole dance.

Very nice analogy!

However, personally I believe that the game should mainly be learned in-game. This just requires good game design, which is something Blizzard currently often fail at. There should be more soloable content that teaches players how to use interrupts and utilities, so they can improve and get better in their own pace in a non-toxic environment. This is why I love the Horrific Visions as these have plenty of abilities that you HAVE to interrupt otherwise you are screwed. There should be more content like this so people have a basic understanding of mechanics before they go to M+. Most people just know how to do their dps rotation and that is it.

While I get your point, I'm not sure there's a lot Blizzard can do to force people to learn the most dangerous abilities in each dungeon, short of implementing an "official" in-game DBM tool. If they make these abilities too dangerous in low-level content, people will just stop running the dungeons altogether, and if it's too forgiving (as it currently is), people either won't bother with it or won't even realize the danger.

I think the real issue is that people want to jump in keys too high for them because of the rewards. It's perfectly fine for those runs advertised as "weekly", but for non-weekly runs, it doesn't seem unfair to expect you'll pull your weight - which, I hasten to add, doesn't mean that you can't do a single mistake ever, just that you should overall know your shit, to use the vernacular.

[Greengrim]

Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's pointless, or that they are bad.

Read the thread.

So be it: you're right, I'm not... cheers for the chat.

Edit:

Very nice analogy!

Thanks brother. But I owe it to all my years as a professional ballroom dancer... It's not just being a wise-a$$ or something of the sort.

[Kaver]

While I get your point, I'm not sure there's a lot Blizzard can do to force people to learn the most dangerous abilities in each dungeon, short of implementing an "official" in-game DBM tool. If they make these abilities too dangerous in low-level content, people will just stop running the dungeons altogether, and if it's too forgiving (as it currently is), people either won't bother with it or won't even realize the danger.

I think the real issue is that people want to jump in keys too high for them because of the rewards. It's perfectly fine for those runs advertised as "weekly", but for non-weekly runs, it doesn't seem unfair to expect you'll pull your weight - which, I hasten to add, doesn't mean that you can't do a single mistake ever, just that you should overall know your shit, to use the vernacular.

It's about giving the new (rookie) players a less toxic environment to learn how to handle interruptions/utility and understand the importance of doing so. The issue with low-level keystones is that they do not teach players how to do that as the consequences of not interrupting etc. are non-existing. I see so many players who just interrupt random abilities without knowing what they actually do.

The good thing about Horrific Visions (and Mage Towers in Legion) is that they provide players a "safe non-toxic space" while still presenting challenging content that can teach players how to handle mechanics which are relevant in higher keystones. There are consequences in Horrific Vision to wasting your interrupts on the wrong abilities.

Now, of course you are completely right that this doesn't teach players the specific mechanics of the specific dungeons however, it provide the players with a good understanding of why it is so important to not just focus on dps.

[Loveliest]

M+ actively discourages that due to the timer.

What, and you think that if they removed timers, dps would spend time to learn? How many dps look up a dungeon before they set foot in a regular dungeon the first time is out?

- - - Updated - - -

So be it: you're right, I'm not... cheers for the chat.

He said what he said not because what you're saying is wrong. Yes, tanks lead yadda yadda. He says that the point of this thread is exactly this, exactly this mindset and requirements for tanks to be leaders. And not only that, they're expected to be natural born leaders at that, to lead the party perfectly. Which is great, but that also means that if this doesn't change, we won't have more tanks. You'll have the vast majority who want to follow and the few who actually want to lead and take the heat.

[Zarvel]

That is such nonsense. I have seen plenty of tanks in my time playing that come int with aa holier than thou attitude and that everythign revolves around them. Tanks are just as toxic as any other player.

Yeah sure, i never said it doesn't happen. In fact the post you quoted literally has me saying in the very first para that some of them can be jerks just for the sake of being jerks. Maybe read before you respond with rage in haste?
But "nonsense"? Bit of a reach my dude. Just because you faced shitty tanks so often doesn't mean everybody else only faces shitty tanks with a holier than thou attitude. Yes, they exist, but are all of them that? Nope. I've done M+ with tanks ranging from sub 500 IO to 3.5k in S3 for weekly or push keys, and only maybe 30% of them were jerks (usually the extremely high IO ones). Heck, I'm a tank myself sometimes, and I absolutely do not mind when a key goes south because of 1-2 players because I know I can join another one, so I just do whatever I can to finish my current key unless someone leaves before I do. Infact, if you look at my very recent IO history on my DK, you'll see an out of time +10 run where I carried the group's DPS as tank but stuck around to the end, even though it would've been easy for me to just leave and join another group for a quicker +10.
If i can be tolerant, I would like to believe there are other tanks out there like me. So yea, talking about people bashing tanks all the time, I can add you to my list of examples.

[Powerogue]

Yup, the player base is just full of terrible people. You want tanks, then quit being dicks and let them learn and play at their speed.

When the tank or healer are struggling, use some CC and misdirection abilities and lighten that load, like the ye olden times. It can make quite a difference. I have manged with even the worst of tanks.

[splatomat]

A good start would be to give more classes tank spec.

The Hunter-Survival redesign was a perfect opportunity for this. A melee redesign literally nobody asked for, and they just made it a DPS spec. Why? Could have made it a "knight"-style tank, riding your pet into battle, using charge mechanics, wielding a polearm. What we got was uninspired.

Take Mage-Arcane and turn it into a tank (or heal) spec. The whole premise is using time-alteration to "unwind" or reverse wounds, or give people shields with a flavor of precognition or alternate timelines. Or maybe you conjure an astral guardian to inhabit and it gives you new tanky abilities.

Take Rogue-Subtlety and turn it into a tank spec. Using the shadows, dodging, and parrying.

Take Warlock-Demonology and turn it into a tank spec. You become a demon-juggernaut.

There's a million different ways the game could give enhanced utility to the "pure dps" classes, but they won't do it. And the bottom line is that as a Hunter-main, I'm never going to tank. I don't want to have to play an entirely different class to do it. The game is so alt-unfriendly now that it's just too much of a hassle.

[Nathreim]

If a tank did the same damage as a dps, there would be no reason to play dps.

In Mop tanks often did more DPS than everyone and we never had a problem on the contrary most consider classes to have been the best during MoP.

[antelope591]

In Mop tanks often did more DPS than everyone and we never had a problem on the contrary most consider classes to have been the best during MoP.

Yeah people keep sputing this when BRM monk was the highest dps for a good portion of MoP and no, it didn't cause everyone to play BRM. It did cause a lot more people to play tanks though cause it was actually fun.

[A Chozo]

He said what he said not because what you're saying is wrong. Yes, tanks lead yadda yadda. He says that the point of this thread is exactly this, exactly this mindset and requirements for tanks to be leaders. And not only that, they're expected to be natural born leaders at that, to lead the party perfectly. Which is great, but that also means that if this doesn't change, we won't have more tanks. You'll have the vast majority who want to follow and the few who actually want to lead and take the heat.

Thanks for understanding. It's a shame that some people come to this thread and after all this discussion they still don't realize that the elitist pressure on tanks - independently of their performance and difficulty of content - makes it an unpopular job for most players.