False dichotomy: hardcore vs. casual

[liberaet]

Contrary to popular belief, WoW's convenience and "casual" features are not designed to appeal to casuals. Rather, they are designed to appeal to WoW's current core target audience which I will NOT explicitly name until the end of this post because without context, explicitly naming that target audience would result in a ban.

Great and very interesting post, I agree with a lot of what is said here.

[Elim Garak]

No I get that, but if Bob only has time to show up for raid on Tuesday nights, and does so every Tuesday night he is still a casual player.

If he always comes on Tuesday meaning the Raid can rely on his attendance - he's not a casual. Also, he basically spends his only free time to raid. Such dedication. One might even call him hardcore.

[Raelbo]

If he always comes on Tuesday meaning the Raid can rely on his attendance - he's not a casual. Also, he basically spends his only free time to raid. Such dedication. One might even call him hardcore.

As I already said, but you refuse to acknowledge, casual is a relative term. That is the fact.

So Bob might be more casual than the rest of his guild (even significantly so), but less casual (or more hardcore) than some person who logs on randomly 5-6 times a month to do some LFR.

Whether someone decides to label Bob "casual" or "hardcore" is an entirely subjective thing dependent on their individual context - although I would say that a more sensible approach would be to avoid such binary terms and use terminology that acknowledges the continuum. A term like "semi-casual" would be far more useful in this context.

[Elim Garak]

As I already said, but you refuse to acknowledge, casual is a relative term. That is the fact.

I acknowledged your incorrectness just fine. Casual is an absolute term. That is the fact. There are shades within casualty (how often one plays and for how long at a time). But not between casual and hardcore. Because between casual and hardcore sits mid-core. To go from casual to mid-core one has to start playing regularly, i.e. not casually. Now between mid to hardcore - there's a scale with a relative turning point - because it's all about the amount of time spent in-game. I would call someone hardcore if they spent most of their free time in-game. Ultra hardcore - all of their free time.

Not everything is a continuum. Not everything is binary. There are continuums within a binary grid - there are shades to A, there are shades to B, but A is not B, not even at the closest extreme values of their respective continuums. Seeing everything as part of one continuum is the same as seeing everything as binary. Silly.

[Seranthor]

I acknowledged your incorrectness just fine. Casual is an absolute term. That is the fact. There are shades within casualty (how often one plays and for how long at a time). But not between casual and hardcore. Because between casual and hardcore sits mid-core. To go from casual to mid-core one has to start playing regularly, i.e. not casually. Now between mid to hardcore - there's a scale with a relative turning point - because it's all about the amount of time spent in-game. I would call someone hardcore if they spent most of their free time in-game. Ultra hardcore - all of their free time.

Not everything is a continuum. Not everything is binary. There are continuums within a binary grid - there are shades to A, there are shades to B, but A is not B, not even at the closest extreme values of their respective continuums. Seeing everything as part of one continuum is the same as seeing everything as binary. Silly.

So someone that played 60 hours a week... Casual or Hardcore?

[Elim Garak]

So someone that played 60 hours a week... Casual or Hardcore?

Do you mean like a full-time ~10h a day job? What makes you uncertain? If there's at least one regularity (every Wednesday between 8 and 11pm) - not casual.

[Seranthor]

Do you mean like a full-time ~10h a day job? What makes you uncertain? If there's at least one regularity (every Wednesday between 8 and 11pm) - not casual.

not casual you say... does your answer change if they refuse to raid or dungeon? If it changes why does it change? If it doesn't change why doesn't it?

[Elim Garak]

not casual you say... does your answer change if they refuse to raid or dungeon? If it changes why does it change? If it doesn't change why doesn't it?

I already explained - it doesn't matter what you do in-game. It's a game with different activities for different people. The purpose is to have fun. IF you have fun doing pet-battles all day - it doesn't make you a casual, because being a casual has nothing to do with what you do in-game.

You can be in the number #1 raiding guild worldwide and be a casual at the SAME time because the new content is not out yet and you have already achieved everything in the current. There are very few people who are hardcore 100% of the time.

[Koniwej]

The whole casual vs hardcore thing is really just a question of attitude.

A lot of casuals are bad cus they don't care. A lot of people clear CE with casual raids.
A lot of hardcore players are also bad. A lot of hardcore players also do the hardest content available.

I play anywhere from 2-20 hours a day depending on what I feel to do and I'm still extremely casual, but I have week 1 aotc in almost every patch this expansion (I don't do mythic). I have 99th percentile logs on my main and I have timed all 15's on 2 chars last season (cba to do it yet this season)

[Aliven]

I already explained - it doesn't matter what you do in-game. It's a game with different activities for different people. The purpose is to have fun. IF you have fun doing pet-battles all day - it doesn't make you a casual, because being a casual has nothing to do with what you do in-game.

You can be in the number #1 raiding guild worldwide and be a casual at the SAME time because the new content is not out yet and you have already achieved everything in the current. There are very few people who are hardcore 100% of the time.

The term "casual" got 4 definitions.

You go by second one, which is "not regular or permanent." This is one way to describe casual.

But also first one, which is "relaxed and unconcerned". And there is NOTHING about time or attendance.

Third definition is "happening by chance; accidental"

And last one is "without formality of style or manner, in particular (of clothing) suitable for everyday wear rather than formal occasions"

So you decided to focus on second definition of that word and threat it like words of god but you just done that to suit narrative and your opinion. Because the 3 others definition are about just as much factual.

The fact you didnt even bother to link the source of that definition speaks volume.

This is how you do it - https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/casual

[Raelbo]

I acknowledged your incorrectness just fine. Casual is an absolute term. That is the fact.

As I already challenged you: Citation needed.

You keep arguing that you have "the fact". But you keep failing to provide evidence thereof. That is pretty much as close to an admission of being wrong as is possible from a forum dweller who is wrong.

There are shades within casualty (how often one plays and for how long at a time). But not between casual and hardcore. Because between casual and hardcore sits mid-core. To go from casual to mid-core one has to start playing regularly, i.e. not casually. Now between mid to hardcore - there's a scale with a relative turning point - because it's all about the amount of time spent in-game. I would call someone hardcore if they spent most of their free time in-game. Ultra hardcore - all of their free time.

Face it my Cardissian friend, "casual" (in the context of WoW), "hardcore" and "mid-core" are made up terms. I don't even necessarily disagree with your chosen definitions - (I just chose the term semi-casual rather than mid-core). But they are subjective.

Where I do disagree with the above is your insistence on equating time spent with level of casualness. Again, time spent alone is insufficient. There has to be a level of dedication and effort applied during the time.

Not everything is a continuum. Not everything is binary. There are continuums within a binary grid - there are shades to A, there are shades to B, but A is not B, not even at the closest extreme values of their respective continuums. Seeing everything as part of one continuum is the same as seeing everything as binary. Silly.

Where did I say anything about everything being a continuum? I am specifically talking about terms that define dedication to a game. And in this case, it is totally possible given two different people with different contexts, that what one person classifies as "casual" might legitimately be called "hardcore" by another, because there are no defined thresholds for being casual, mid-core or hardcore.

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The term "casual" got 4 definitions.

And that is if you choose to restrict yourself to a single source. If you look at multiple sources of definitions there are far more. Furthermore, dictionary definitions don't even pertain to the specific context of WoW, making the term even more ambiguous. So yeah, absolutely, the idea that Mr Garak is custodian the authoritive definition is ridiculous to say the least.

[ecospherez]

Snip.

I admire your persistence but i wouldn't bother anymore, he wont admit hes wrong even though we all know he is. He can't offer some definitive proof because it doesn't exist because it's a term coined by the players, therefor it changes from person to person.

[Raelbo]

I already explained - it doesn't matter what you do in-game. It's a game with different activities for different people. The purpose is to have fun. IF you have fun doing pet-battles all day - it doesn't make you a casual, because being a casual has nothing to do with what you do in-game.

It would be correct to say that it's not about what you do. It's about how you do it - your approach, attitude, level of commitment/dedication etc.

Someone who spends all day having fun doing pet-battles could be either casual or hardcore, depending on how seriously they take it. I would not call someone who runs around battling level 1 wild pets for 12 hours a day hardcore. Not at all. I would call someone who devotes 12 hours a week to focussing on levelling up their pet collection, who has figured out teams for all the dailies, and who has a well tuned PvP team with 2000 wins behind him to be far more hardcore. But that same player might be regarded as "casual" by the guy who devotes 12 hours a day to making his pet collection the best in the world.

[Aliven]

I admire your persistence but i wouldn't bother anymore, he wont admit hes wrong even though we all know he is. He can't offer some definitive proof because it doesn't exist because it's a term coined by the players, therefor it changes from person to person.

Actually the term "casual" was used long before that, it was raising in popularity since 1950 but was used long before that date.

Of course language evolve and change but thats why there are 4 definitions in english language.

[ecospherez]

Actually the term "casual" was used long before that, it was raising in popularity since 1950 but was used long before that date.

Of course language evolve and change but thats why there are 4 definitions in english language.

I'm talking about the term within gaming and more specifically within wow. Not the actual definitions within the dictionary.

As that's what this whole argument is about, what it means to be casual or hardcore within WOW.

[Elim Garak]

The term "casual" got 4 definitions.

You go by second one, which is "not regular or permanent." This is one way to describe casual.

But also first one, which is "relaxed and unconcerned". And there is NOTHING about time or attendance.

Third definition is "happening by chance; accidental"

And last one is "without formality of style or manner, in particular (of clothing) suitable for everyday wear rather than formal occasions"

So you decided to focus on second definition of that word and threat it like words of god but you just done that to suit narrative and your opinion. Because the 3 others definition are about just as much factual.

The fact you didnt even bother to link the source of that definition speaks volume.

This is how you do it - https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/casual

Each definition is for its own context. For gaming, it's the second one. There are real examples of sentences that show the context for usage.
Also, it speaks volumes that you need a link to an online dictionary provided for you while you are online.

As I already challenged you: Citation needed.

Citation of what?

You keep arguing that you have "the fact". But you keep failing to provide evidence thereof. That is pretty much as close to an admission of being wrong as is possible from a forum dweller who is wrong.

I'm sorry if the English language is not factual enough for you.

Face it my Cardissian friend, "casual" (in the context of WoW), "hardcore" and "mid-core" are made up terms. I don't even necessarily disagree with your chosen definitions - (I just chose the term semi-casual rather than mid-core). But they are subjective.

All terms are made up, all words are made up, your point is moot because there's no amount of words one can use to overcome the madeupness of them. That's where it would help to use logic, but you refuse to.

Where I do disagree with the above is your insistence on equating time spent with level of casualness. Again, time spent alone is insufficient. There has to be a level of dedication and effort applied during the time.

I don't equate time spent with the level of casualness. I equate time spent with the level of hardcoreness. Casualness is all about regularity.

Where did I say anything about everything being a continuum?

By saying that casual and hardcore are on the same continuum. While in fact, it's just different grid blocks.

It would be correct to say that it's not about what you do. It's about how you do it - your approach, attitude, level of commitment/dedication etc.

No. One can come online get their mythic+ 15 key or whatever the fad these days, with utmost skillfulness and dedication - and then disappear for an uncertain amount of time. That's casual.

[Aliven]

I'm talking about the term within gaming and more specifically within wow. Not the actual definitions within the dictionary.

As that's what this whole argument is about, what it means to be casual or hardcore within WOW.

But i see only first and second definition here. In wow context. Is there any other?

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Each definition is for its own context. For gaming, it's the second one. There are real examples of sentences that show the context for usage.
Also, it speaks volumes that you need a link to an online dictionary provided for you while you are online.

Yes, its called providing proof, something you cant do.

And no, each definition has the same weight. You cant willy nilly decide which fits. Hell i can say that im casually attending raids because i dress my toon in casual clothes And im right by definition of that word.

Eat it.

[Elim Garak]

Yes, its called providing proof, something you cant do.

And no, each definition has the same weight. You cant willy nilly decide which fits. Hell i can say that im casually attending raids because i dress my toon in casual clothes And im right by definition of that word.

Eat it.

No, that's the wrong usage. It's basically a pun. A wordplay. You are making a joke by saying that. Unless you mean it - then the joke's on you.

Being casually dressed doesn't make you a casual gamer - it makes you a gamer who is casually dressed. Even "playing casually" and "playing casually dressed" - have different meanings, don't you agree?

[Kumorii]

Each definition is for its own context. For gaming, it's the second one. There are real examples of sentences that show the context for usage.
Also, it speaks volumes that you need a link to an online dictionary provided for you while you are online.


Citation of what?

I'm sorry if the English language is not factual enough for you.



All terms are made up, all words are made up, your point is moot because there's no amount of words one can use to overcome the madeupness of them. That's where it would help to use logic, but you refuse to.


I don't equate time spent with the level of casualness. I equate time spent with the level of hardcoreness. Casualness is all about regularity.



By saying that casual and hardcore are on the same continuum. While in fact, it's just different grid blocks.



No. One can come online get their mythic+ 15 key or whatever the fad these days, with utmost skillfulness and dedication - and then disappear for an uncertain amount of time. That's casual.

Why is it the second one? Where do you find that? Casual has always been used for the first definition when it comes to my experience.
I doubt you give a source but hey, might as well join the fun.

[Raelbo]

Citation of what?

A citation supporting your claim of what is fact, since you want to claim that your definition of "casual" is not subjective, but fact.

Don't bother. Clearly @ecospherez is correct. You can't support your assertion because it's patently nonsense. You're not here to engage in debate you're just here to argue for the sake of arguing. There's a term for that....