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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    And you could respond to questions asked instead of responding with childish attempts at "humor". Just answer the question - What ability to you believe would roadblock guilds in BWL?
    Youre not putting forth good faith arguments, and youve proven youre not worth the time to discuss this with, it wont go any where. Youre dug in.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Youre not putting forth good faith arguments, and youve proven youre not worth the time to discuss this with, it wont go any where. Youre dug in.
    You cant answer the question, thats why you are desperately avoiding it. Its really that simple, almost as simple as wow classic raids.

  3. #243
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolvarg View Post
    Even including those three things, why are those three arbitrary measures the only ones we should use for difficulty? How fast do necessary reactions need to be to be considered "hard"? How small must the positioning mistake margin be? How complex do the tactics need to be for you to consider them hard?
    There is a more subjective definition of "hard", which is your own, and then there is the less subjective definition of "hard", which is when compared to the average of the gamer population. A game that requires, for example, a 1.5-second reaction time may be hard for someone, but it's not hard for the general population. But something that requires like a 0.5 second reaction time, it's much harder, objectively.

    Compare the end boss of vanilla WoW with the end boss of BfA. How many 1-hit-KO abilities are there in each? What's the complexity of mechanics in each?

    Also, where exactly does WoW require those three things, on its base difficulties? (Leveling, World quests, Normal dungeons, LFR)
    You were the one who brought "raid fights" and "Dark Souls" to the discussion.

    But back to leveling: even in modern WoW, while leveling, if you pull too many mobs you die. Can you level faster in modern WoW than you can in Classic? Yes. But that does not make it "easier". Just less time-consuming. And something being "time-consuming" is not necessarily "hard". There is no race to make "time consumed" be a measurement of difficulty. A quest to kill an elite mob or mobs? Get a group, or skip that quest. Simple as that.

    Also, if you allow me to be facetious for a moment, but going back to your previous example of chess: yes, you can win any and all not-timed chess games if you take your time. You just have to wait until your opponent's patience runs out and he forfeits the game, giving you the win.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  4. #244
    Only 2 kinds of people hyped Vanilla (and thus Classic) up as difficult. Those kinds of people were:

    A) People that accomplished/felt accomplished in Vanilla, couldn't keep up with the times and wanted to make it seem as though the game required the best kind of gamers back then to prop up their fragile egos.
    B) Fanboys/fangirls of said people, whom were often content creators/Streamers. And their fans were LOUD and obnoxious.

    And so the myth took hold. Meanwhile you had PS players tell the truth. I'm fairly sure that more people killed BWL in its first 48 hours, than the amount of people on Retail able to finish LFR without a hitch on Live in that same timeframe.

    I know for a fact that the guild I keep tabs on (because I'll potentially join them for Naxx), made up mostly of casuals/LFR-players on Live, downed Neffy the first day. They don't tryhard and don't consist of PS players that have done the raid hundreds of time, but they still cleared it with ease.
    Last edited by Queen of Hamsters; 2020-02-14 at 09:06 PM.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Biske View Post
    It was mostly a lack of leadership. Anything can turn into a huge mess when everyone's running around with no direction. After the first wipe, since no one was stepping up, I started leading the raid, telling them what to do (since I imagine most of those players hadn't played vanilla) and we cleared it super easily. I didn't even give super involved directions, just "keep the dogs apart" or "move away from everyone if you're the bomb". It also helped that the kit for most classes was pretty absurd compared to vanilla. One could afford to tank through or ignore a lot of mechanics. There was, of course, the odd idiot that did some random shit and died, but that was on them, and didn't cause a wipe.
    I often try to take lead, but half the raid might as well just be AFK with the competence they show.

  6. #246
    Immortal jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Yes, without a doubt. What specific mechanic in BWL do you believe would cause issues progressing through as "new" content right now?
    Are we talking about LFR?

    Because handing out Bronze Dust for Chromaggus in an LFR setting and having people not waste them (because they're a finite resource) sounds like a nightmare to me. In fact, Chromaggus in general in an LFR setting seems awful, you know people will be trying to finish casts and getting hit by breaths, and you'd be guaranteed a draconid MC on nearly every attempt with how people tunnel things.

    Classic raids are easier than Retail, definitely. They are about pre-raid prep and organization mostly, with few difficult mechanics. However, like I mentioned above, there are a handful of bosses with mechanics that I think would cause issues in a LFR setting, so I'd say they're about on par with Normal difficulty Retail raids. Nothing in Classic touches Mythic Retail raiding.

    But that's okay. Neither one is inherently better or worse. People need to get over their egos and need to be seen as "being good at a game."
    Last edited by jackofwind; 2020-02-14 at 09:38 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  7. #247
    Elemental Lord Tekkommo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markos82 View Post
    So I need to "exploit" mobs and how they walk/run on order to aoe lvl where there is water, because water is everywhere where we lvl and we can do that all the time while doing quests, right?
    You just quoted a guy who posted a WotLK video and is claiming Warriors aoe level in Classic. Ignore him, he's either a troll or stupid.

  8. #248
    People are Metagaming progress, people are bis each tier so every raid will get utterly demolished. It was a great experiment and nice to revisit old places but its not the same. The same would be said with BC and WoTLK but that's not what matters, its simply revisiting.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I know its cute to say 'lol u can finish LFR in a coma with no brain activity' but LFR has had mechanics that matter for a while now. As a recent example Wrathion's Scorching Blister explosions absolutely still kill if you fail at it in LFR. Even as far back as Throne of Thunder, Durumu had to be done correctly in LFR or you wiped.

    So yeah, Classic is in fact easier than LFR and people wiping the floor with BWL in 42 minutes is proof in the pudding. Sorry/not sorry.
    you're saying that because a top guild can complete a raid in 42 minutes that they have spend years practicing that means it's easier than lfr?

    100% the exact same would happen if they were to release tbc, wotlk, cataclysm etc. people know the mechanics, they have practiced the raids and there will always be a few guilds that just blaze through it, it's not proof of anything.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Kneth View Post
    you're saying that because a top guild can complete a raid in 42 minutes that they have spend years practicing that means it's easier than lfr?

    100% the exact same would happen if they were to release tbc, wotlk, cataclysm etc. people know the mechanics, they have practiced the raids and there will always be a few guilds that just blaze through it, it's not proof of anything.
    No, they are saying that because THOUSANDS of non PS players one shot their way through the raid with zero experience or knowledge of the encounters.

    Some of you fall back on the "but they are pro gamers who practiced for years!" while ignoring the thousands of guilds and pugs that cleared the raid in a couple of hours without all the experience and practice of these pro gamers.


    EDIT for clarity - i dont think this is a problem AT ALL - its a reality, and its one that wont be changing any time soon, but its just how it is. Unless they remove Normal, Heroic, and Mythic, Classic raiding is substantially easier than the 'competition'./
    Last edited by arkanon; 2020-02-14 at 11:43 PM.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Adramalech View Post
    This is probably the only good reason for why Classic ended up being a good idea. Dispelling all the falsehoods pushed on forums over the years, telling a story of a Classic (or Vanilla, whatever you prefer to call it, I personally always called the original WoW by "Classic" long before Classic even became an idea) that simply never existed. The stories of harsh leveling, punishing dungeons, hardcore raids... all of it false, something that only felt true at the time because of a lack of knowledge and experience with the game. It does bring me a certain level of satisfaction to see it all come crashing down, despite how childish it is to feel this way.

    I'm sure people will keep on moving the goal posts every time. We've all seen the same excuses in every thread related to Classic difficulty. Oh, it's because we have 1.12 balancing and items! Oh, no one ever said MC/BWL was hard (many people did, for many years), and if they did, they weren't serious! AQ40 for sure will take longer and cockblock hundreds upon hundreds of guilds (I'm sure AQ will take fairly longer though, since you have to play walking simulator inside in addition to playing the raid itself). No no wait, not AQ, but Naxx, Naxx for SURE will be a wall for people, it's SOOOO hard, there's no way it will get demolished as easily as the rest!

    ... and so on. I'm being kind of childish and honestly a bit of an asshole by feeling good about this entire thing when it comes to a game. But forgive me if I feel good about being vindicated after years of having to hear the tune of Classic WoW being this amazing experience that only a select few could endure if it came out today.
    I have a similar sentiment. I don't think it a bad thing per se that Classic is easy; a lot of good games are on the easy side and people have more than a right to enjoy easy and relaxing gameplay. But I just can't quite shake the satisfaction of seeing the myth that vanilla was some kind of hardcore era where only "real" gamers could prosper crash and burn. Yeah, leveling's harder in Classic no doubt, but it's still not hard by any stretch of the imagination, and literally everything else is far more demanding in retail.

    WoW has literally always been a casual MMO- that was its main claim to fame from the onset and why it exploded in popularity while its competitors struggled to have more than half a million total players.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    Not a chance in hell. An average guild in retail can maybe clear normal in the first reset. Heroic will require weeks. Believe me I've been in plenty of guilds like that. My guild in Classic is way worse than that and we still cleared BWL on our first raid night.

    It's just way too easy
    I pugged heroic until I quit with Battle of Dazar'alor. We literally killed Jaina with randoms in Heroic on ID 2.

    If you dont believe me, here https://worldofwarcraft.com/de-de/ch...kragjin/tsarez

    https://worldofwarcraft.com/de-de/ch...strength/raids

    All with randoms. Complete, utter strangers. From /2
    Last edited by StayTuned; 2020-02-15 at 12:01 AM.

  13. #253
    Immortal jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    or skip that quest.
    The only way to truly become the best at WoW is to apply this to all aspects of the game.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I know you're trying to argue but you actually helped make my point. Most of the difficulty of vanilla stemmed from A: we didn't know shit about the game compared to now, and B: whether or not you had enough resistance to survive this or that.

    But mechanically? The fights are child's play compared to modern raid encounters. I know some of y'all are pro-Classic but at least be realistic about it - yes, it absolutely does some things better than the current game. But to say that Classic raids were harder is a straight-up farce.
    I have yet to see anyone claim that the mechanics in Vanilla were harder than now. Vanilla *was* hard; the same way that BC raids *were* hard. The same way that Mythic Kil'jaeden *was* hard. The same way that Mythic 'Ghuun *was* hard.

    For the time period, Vanilla was harder proportionally than current raids.

    Farming WAS hard a thousand years ago. It's borderline trivial today. Does that mean we can claim that farming WAS actually easy, people just didn't know better? We've gotten better at it, so it must have been a joke back then too? Our experiences is precisely what makes things easier.

    Classic isn't hard. But Classic isn't Vanilla.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teffi
    You play a game for 20+ hours a week and you're "an addict".
    You sit on your fat ass eating nachos and watching men in tight pants throw a ball around for 20+ hours a week and you're "a man".
    Sometimes, I just can't even:
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx
    It's just an assertion, so it's neither logical nor illogical.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Compare the end boss of vanilla WoW with the end boss of BfA. How many 1-hit-KO abilities are there in each? What's the complexity of mechanics in each?
    I would say the "average" of the gamer population can vary quite a bit. If one considers all gamers (including people who only play mobile games and such), most likely either version of WoW could be considered quite challenging.

    In Normal and higher raid difficulties modern WoW is unquestionably more challenging. But with the majority of LFR bosses, that's not the case - even if they do still technically have a higher number of mechanics, the truth is they almost never matter because the tuning is so forgiving you can out-heal and out-dps everything. And even if you can't, at first, you will likely be able to after enough wipes since you get a stacking buff each time. And if you still can't, you can very easily leave the group and find a new one that might stand a better chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You were the one who brought "raid fights" and "Dark Souls" to the discussion.

    But back to leveling: even in modern WoW, while leveling, if you pull too many mobs you die. Can you level faster in modern WoW than you can in Classic? Yes. But that does not make it "easier". Just less time-consuming. And something being "time-consuming" is not necessarily "hard". There is no race to make "time consumed" be a measurement of difficulty. A quest to kill an elite mob or mobs? Get a group, or skip that quest. Simple as that.
    I brought these up as arbitrary examples that just because you can explain in a simple matter how to overcome a certain challenge, doesn't mean there isn't a challenge there. Meaning, you can say "just don't be careful not to overpull and you won't die", which is true, but it doesn't negate the fact that there is an added difficulty of having to care not to overpull.

    Sure, in modern WoW you can still overpull. But it's not even comparable to Classic. It's simply much easier/more likely to unintentionally die in Classic. An average player will find it hard to deal with more than 1, maybe 2 same-level mobs at a time. If you look into mobs higher level than you (with all the added miss chance and etc), elites, group quest mobs, and such, the difference is even more apparent. So I do defend that regardless of whether one considers time requirement an aspect of difficulty, Classic overall is more challenging than modern WoW at its base (easiest) difficulties, despite still being, all in all, a fairly easy game.

    Personally I do think that time requirement is an aspect of difficulty. Difficult can be defined as something that needs effort or skill to accomplish/deal with/understand. So reflexes, knowledge of the game and fights, positioning and all that stuff would fall under "skill", while required time would fall under "effort".
    Last edited by Kolvarg; 2020-02-15 at 12:29 AM.

  16. #256
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolvarg View Post
    I would say the "average" of the gamer population can vary quite a bit. If one considers all gamers (including people who only play mobile games and such), most likely either version of WoW could be considered quite challenging.

    In Normal and higher raid difficulties modern WoW is unquestionably more challenging. But with the majority of LFR bosses, that's not the case - even if they do still technically have a higher number of mechanics, the truth is they almost never matter because the tuning is so forgiving you can out-heal and out-dps everything. And even if you can't, at first, you will likely be able to after enough wipes since you get a stacking buff each time. And if you still can't, you can very easily leave the group and find a new one that might stand a better chance.
    But here's the thing: if you want to compare "which one is the hardest", you need to compare both entities at their hardest, because, otherwise, it's the same thing as saying a 12-year-old is faster than Usain Bolt because he can outrun a walking Usain Bolt. Or say that feathers are heavier than lead because 10 pounds of feathers are heavier than one pound of lead.

    I brought these up as arbitrary examples that just because you can explain in a simple matter how to overcome a certain challenge, doesn't mean there isn't a challenge there. Meaning, you can say "just don't be careful not to overpull and you won't die", which is true, but it doesn't negate the fact that there is an added difficulty of having to care not to overpull.
    But there is no challenge. Spending more time to reach max level than you do on modern WoW is not a measurement of difficulty when you don't have a time limit to reach your goal. Overpulling and aggro'ing extra mobs? That will also happen in modern WoW if you just go around attacking everything in sight without keeping your surroundings in mind, and yes, you will die, in both games. If the mobs are higher level than you? Go to a different area with mobs more at your level, or below it. Elite/group quests? Find a group, or skip those quests. To this day I skip the group quests in Icecrown when I level my character through Northrend.

    Classic is simply not this "hardcore" game people claim it to be, even when compared to modern WoW.

    Personally I do think that time requirement is an aspect of difficulty. Difficult can be defined as something that needs effort or skill to accomplish/deal with/understand. So reflexes, knowledge of the game and fights, positioning and all that stuff would fall under "skill", while required time would fall under "effort".
    I never said "time requirement", I said "time consumed". Leveling does not have a "time requirement". You don't have 'X amount of hours' to reach max level. That said, your own definition of "difficult" excludes "time consumed" as a measurement of difficulty since it required neither effort nor skill.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Reading is hard ? Do you actually understand the words you quote or not ?
    yes, you said regular guilds will clear it after some progres, but regular guilds and PUGs are clearing it on day one, so where is the progres?

  18. #258
    Epic! Uoyredrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    tedious =/= harder

    Killing 94 bears for 8 flanks isn't hard, its time consuming.
    Good thing classic is both. You have to actually manage resources, watch your surroundings to avoid pulling extra mobs, use slows/cc to prevent fleeing mobs from aggroing more, know when to kite or just run away, etc. You have to do literally none of that in retail aside from (barely) managing your resources. Which really just comes down to "are my cds up? Great, I can pull 12 mobs at once and AOE them".

    I won't deny it's tedious. But in no way is the difficulty of leveling comparable between the two, classic is far harder.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Decent guilds with good gear do wipe on BWL and only a very small minority cleared the raid already.
    Over 900 guilds cleared it in the first couple of days, that's not a small minority that's most of them.

  20. #260
    The Lightbringer Perkunas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lollerlaban View Post
    Let's not kid ourselves, LFR is way harder than any of the Classic raids and that's a hilarious feat in itself.
    But, it's the people you're playing with that make LFR difficult not the content...
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