View Poll Results: Regardless to where you are from is healthcare a human right? Universal Healthcare

Voters
106. This poll is closed
  • No, Healthcare is not a right, in the wild wolves ate the weak

    19 17.92%
  • Yes, I support Universal Healthcare, Healthcare is a Human right.

    84 79.25%
  • Yes, I support subsidized tier insurance, no excluding conditions

    3 2.83%
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  1. #81
    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    that is the true nature of the world, though.

    you're only guaranteed the rights that you're given by those that keep you safe, and even then someone can come and take those rights from you at any moment. without a government to enforce those rights, there's only yourself and what you can protect. ideally, we wouldn't need a government of any kind. but without one, there's only suffering.

    we would truly be better off if we hadn't come into existence, if people didn't perpetuate human existence by breeding.
    technically yes but you really have to question why someone would come into a thread and state the obvious like that.....unless they have other motives for doing so....
    r.i.p. alleria. 1997-2017. blizzard ruined alleria forever. blizz assassinated alleria's character and appearance.
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  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by breadisfunny View Post
    technically yes but you really have to question why someone would come into a thread and state the obvious like that.....unless they have other motives for doing so....
    idk what you mean, i just assume they thought their position was the answer to the question of the thread.

    it is one of many possible fitting answers, imo.

  3. #83
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I Push Buttons View Post
    I support slowly transitioning to single payer, starting with a public option and allowing people to buy into medicaid/medicare.

    I don't think healthcare should be a right, however, anymore than I think access to food, or clothes, or housing, etc., should be a right. People who need those things and can't acquire them on their own should be helped, but its a whole other can of worms entirely, in my opinion, to deem access to those things a right.
    I like your points. However, we need to remember buying into Medicare, those on it now, have earned it by paying into the system for decades or are on a disability. So if we allowed anyone to opt into it, we should expect those who have not paid into it for long, to pay a higher premium.

    I have no issue however, with people being on a disability being helped.
    " If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher.." - Abraham Lincoln
    The Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to - prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms..” - Samuel Adams

  4. #84
    It's an issue of if doctors should have the right to charge money to use their services as a healer. There is room for this.

    Should there be a free system like Canada's that covers everything even if the quality and service aren't top notch? Yes. It should be effective and it should work. That's all people are asking for.

    If you are rich and want "super" healthcare with no wait times, etc, you can do that to.

  5. #85
    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    idk what you mean, i just assume they thought their position was the answer to the question of the thread.

    it is one of many possible fitting answers, imo.
    go read jinro's posts and come back and tell me it's anything but.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    I like your points. However, we need to remember buying into Medicare, those on it now, have earned it by paying into the system for decades or are on a disability. So if we allowed anyone to opt into it, we should expect those who have not paid into it for long, to pay a higher premium.

    I have no issue however, with people being on a disability being helped.
    so your saying other people haven't 'earned' the right to be on medicaid?
    r.i.p. alleria. 1997-2017. blizzard ruined alleria forever. blizz assassinated alleria's character and appearance.
    i will never forgive you for this blizzard.

  6. #86
    The Lightbringer
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    I wanna say yes but at the same time I know that there are people who tie up the free systems with minor or self inflicted issues.
    I actually know people who committed self harm to get out of stuff like school ,work,etc.
    And that’s just the people who are intentionally doing physical damage to themselves, there are still countless other people who do stupid shit like smoking/drugs/drinking/eating too much which also puts a burden on the health system.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by breadisfunny View Post
    go read jinro's posts and come back and tell me it's anything but.
    i don't get what you mean, anything but what?

    she's asian and has some relatively right-leaning views from her culture. i've only seen her posts as being based in her personality.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by i9erek View Post
    Things are always treated in the absolute here for some reason. Doctors and medical personnel have the right to be paid. For rich countries maybe government-sponsored healthcare is great, for the US government which has a $22 trillion debt and a huge deficit it's not. Stop with these wild government-sponsored shit, we can't afford it. We already pay billions in dollars for education ... these people gonna bankrupt this country with their dream of an ideally perfect society.
    But.... you can afford it.

    your government spend more than any other country in the world per capita on healthcare, as much as double the amount than the countries who have a functioning government run singleplayer health care system.

    The difference is just that the US is utter shit at spending that money, and has an inefficient system.
    With the funding you have, you could probably have a functioning singlepayer system, without charging more money in taxes, but it would require a serious overhaul of how the system currently is and it would have to go through the twosided political shitfest.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by crewskater View Post
    Do you not see the irony in how the VA is garbage because it is government run and how you want to have Medicare for all run by the government. Sometimes it's just better left to private businesses. Make it illegal to deny someone with a pre-existing condition and you solve a few problems right there. Why not cut out insurance companies and work directly with the hospital? I feel like that would be a better place to start than Medicare for all.
    SIGH.

    Medicare is already "run by the govt" and has one of the best customer satisfaction and quality of any operation in the country.


    Do you even know the difference between the VA and Medicare?? I mean its only already been said....

    VA does everything including MEDICAL SERVICES.
    Medicare does ZERO Medical Services.

    That is where the problem comes in.
    Medicare is just management of the system (and even most of this is farmed out to private industry). They do no try to get involved in providing the actual care. 100% of he care is performed already by "private businesses". VA does every last thing themselves and is quite overwhelmed. They can't be great at everything or even good at everything that is why Medicare is run like it is.


    VA is garbage because they refuse to make the real changes necessary because their members are so uneducated about the real problems and so afraid they will "lose" something in the process thanks to fear mongering mostly by republicans.



    You really should read up on how Medicare actually works and how much of its really not "government run" while being a govt program.

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    Quote Originally Posted by i9erek View Post
    Things are always treated in the absolute here for some reason. Doctors and medical personnel have the right to be paid. For rich countries maybe government-sponsored healthcare is great, for the US government which has a $22 trillion debt and a huge deficit it's not. Stop with these wild government-sponsored shit, we can't afford it. We already pay billions in dollars for education ... these people gonna bankrupt this country with their dream of an ideally perfect society.
    WE CAN'T AFFORD IT...…..

    https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statist...NHE-Fact-Sheet

    while spending....

    NHE ( National Health Expenditure) grew 4.6% to $3.6 trillion in 2018, or $11,172 per person, and accounted for 17.7% of Gross Domestic Product (GDP)

    800-850 billion for 65 million people on Medicare.
    650-750 billion for 70 million people on all Medicaid programs
    1.2-1.4 trillion for 160 million workers and 90-120 million of their family members
    400 billion out of pocket for those 160 million workers.
    220 billion VA spending.
    200-300 billion in total uninsured cost for 28 million people who don't have insurance



    3.47- 3.92 TRILLION already being spent

    This does not even include the cost of "no care". When people go without healthcare the financial cost of things like lost wages, over the counter medications, direct pay, death, increased cost because of delaying care, etc etc.


    How do you bankrupt a country with a program that pays for itself/already being paid for???

    Do you think magically there is some new 3 trillion dollar cost coming from somewhere?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by XangXu View Post
    It's an issue of if doctors should have the right to charge money to use their services as a healer. There is room for this.

    Should there be a free system like Canada's that covers everything even if the quality and service aren't top notch? Yes. It should be effective and it should work. That's all people are asking for.

    If you are rich and want "super" healthcare with no wait times, etc, you can do that to.
    LOL, most places that have these programs have better quality ratings then the US and service is not worse. Those are mostly a myth and exaggerations by one off stories and reports.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    I like your points. However, we need to remember buying into Medicare, those on it now, have earned it by paying into the system for decades or are on a disability. So if we allowed anyone to opt into it, we should expect those who have not paid into it for long, to pay a higher premium.

    I have no issue however, with people being on a disability being helped.

    Education time, Welcome to Zan's Medicare 101 class please take a seat.....


    "buying into Medicare". "have earned it by paying into the system for decades"


    Here is fact #1. People who are on Medicare are on a "socialized/socialism" program.
    People who paid into Medicare only fund 40-45% of the total cost though their/employer payroll taxes and premiums.

    The rest of the cost comes from the general fund, State taxes.... I.E - EVERYONE ELSE'S TAXES (mostly since most people on Medicare don't work). You know the other 260+ million people who cannot get Medicare coverage (and its not from their Medicare payroll taxes, its from income tax)

    So even though they have been "paying into the system for decades" it no where nearly covers the total cost. And with only 7-8 million disabled people on the system, they are not the reason for the missing 50-60% of the funding.
    The problem is the last 2 generations (boomers and their parents) stopped increasing the payroll taxes (thanks Reagan et all) in the late 1980's early 90's and never reinstituted the minor tax increase that used to parry the cost increases.


    Feel free to go over to CMS and verify this on your own.
    https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statist...ads/TR2019.pdf


    2018 example:

    Total income $306.6 $353.7 $95.4 $755.7
    Payroll taxes 268.3 — — 268.3
    Interest 7.1 2.5 0.1 9.7 T
    Taxation of benefits 24.2 — — 24.2
    Premiums 3.6 93.3 15.8 112.7
    General revenue 1.6 253.2 67.8 322.7
    Transfers from States — — 11.7 11.7
    Other 1.8 4.6 — 6.4
    Total expenditures $308.2 $337.2 $95.2 $740.6




    So my question WHY THE HELL do people refuse to support Medicare for All when the current program which is supported by almost everyone is the SAME GOD DAMN PROGRAM. Anything negative about a Medicare for All type program is almost always the same negative that we have today under Medicare.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    If the VA is garbage...blame the cuts in funding.
    LOLOLOLERKAKES

    when was funding cut? oh right the few billion dollars in 2015 ish (even though most of that was because of reduced cost).


    09 97.7
    10 127.2
    11 125.5
    12 126.8
    13 139.1
    14 168.9
    15 163.5
    16 166.9
    17 182.1
    18 186.5
    19 196.5


    Double the increase in 10 years.....outpacing all other healthcare cost by multiples.


    VA is garbage because they refuse to change because of unwarranted fears of losing the things they have by letting the private sector take over.
    Just keep throwing more money at a broken system, I am sure that will fix it
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  10. #90
    Immortal Stormspark's Avatar
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    Absolutely a human right. Anyone that entertains thought of it being "for profit" is a sociopath.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by i9erek View Post
    Exactly, we're shit at even remotely managing healthcare and you want to make it all government-managed? How about we fix this mess first? If anything, the fact that we're so incompetent at healthcare financing is a sign that we shouldn't try to go for full government sponsorship.
    i disagree. trying to get a singleplayer system running can be the perfect primer for fixing the issues, because that means you have to look it through the seams to get it working and make the changes happen.

    Health care as a private for profit business where there's payment at the point of service is only good for the company.
    Premiums, copays, deductibles and business deals is essentially what makes the entire health insurance sector in the us a shitfest. insurance companies will try to skip the fence where it's lowest to not pay your bills.
    Not to mention the shitty business deal issue, where you might actually have to go to a different ER/hospital or pay out of own pocket, because the one you ended up at don't have a pricing deal with your insurance company.

    I'm not neccessarily advocating for government owned and run hospitals and such, but for a system where healthcare is free at the point of service.

    The major issue though, is the aforementioned political shitfest.
    As long as the two major parties will vote against things by principle because the opposition suggested the change/law/whatnot, rather than voting by the actual content, it'll never go anywhere.
    Seriously, US politics looks like a bad soap opera from the outside a lot of the time.
    Last edited by freezion; 2020-02-15 at 11:21 PM.

  12. #92
    put humans in a desperate situation for an extended period of time and tell me how many rights you have.
    Kom graun, oso na graun op. Kom folau, oso na gyon op.

    #IStandWithGinaCarano

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by i9erek View Post
    Exactly, we're shit at even remotely managing healthcare and you want to make it all government-managed? How about we fix this mess first? If anything, the fact that we're so incompetent at healthcare financing is a sign that we shouldn't try to go for full government sponsorship.
    Why not just say get rid of Medicare?
    Or my favorite. "Keep your government hands off my Medicare?"

  14. #94
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by i9erek View Post
    Things are always treated in the absolute here for some reason. Doctors and medical personnel have the right to be paid. For rich countries maybe government-sponsored healthcare is great, for the US government which has a $22 trillion debt and a huge deficit it's not. Stop with these wild government-sponsored shit, we can't afford it. We already pay billions in dollars for education ... these people gonna bankrupt this country with their dream of an ideally perfect society.
    "Literally every other developed nation on the planet is able to afford universal health care, but the USA can't, because we're so much poorer than every other nation, apparently."

    Your argument is counter-factual nonsense.


  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by i9erek View Post
    Exactly, we're shit at even remotely managing healthcare and you want to make it all government-managed?
    ....just like other developed nations have already successfully done?

    As dubious as the concept itself already is, I don't think American exceptionalism is supposed to refer to exceptionally incompetent.
    "My successes are my own, but my failures are due to extremist leftist liberals" - Party of Personal Responsibility

    Prediction for the future

  16. #96
    From the UK, we pay national insurance that pays for the NHS (I think lol), is it perfect? No but I don't mind paying just in case and also to make sure others are fine. I think on page 1 at least people got hung up on the term rights when they understand what op means.

  17. #97
    The Insane Revi's Avatar
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    Framing it as a "human right" always seemed jarring to me. It's just a really good idea that people in all countries should agree to.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    Anything you pay in National Insurance generally goes towards a variety of things, NHS included.

    The main issue with the US is something you mentioned here; "and also to make sure others are fine." Many Americans just don't care about other people. As long as they're OK, they don't care about anyone else. There are people that have blatantly admitted as such on this forum even. The "I got mine, fuck you" attitude. Its a reason why America is so far behind other countries in various aspects.
    i knew that ha but i was on the bus into town and realised i might not be 100% with no way to check as i was about to get steamboats so put my caveat in :P

    i do think a lot of people think like that but Americans get unfairly bashed for it. my opinion is that the US is perhaps the most visible country in the world, it get scrutinised more than others (evn the uk that thinks we are bigger than we are) and therefore any deficiency has a large light shined upon it.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    ....just like other developed nations have already successfully done?

    As dubious as the concept itself already is, I don't think American exceptionalism is supposed to refer to exceptionally incompetent.
    Forget other countries.

    The United States already has one of the most successful semi-universal healthcare running since 1966, fucking Medicare.
    60+ million people each year are covered and the results and ratings are some of the highest of any public or private run organization.


    But "Murica" can't do it...because...ummm...reasons....
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by i9erek View Post
    The US is exceptionally incompetent when it comes to government services. We can't build any infrastructure without ridiculous costs ... our military costs a shit ton of money and believe me we're not getting a proportional return on it ... university tuition costs are astronomical ... we can't even get clean water to people and you think the government can fully handle healthcare? People need to wake up. We're in deep deep shit and we need to do something about the process and the finance system before blowing up another hole in the budget.
    But then as usual for your sort, you want to do everything you can to ignore how the GOP supports cutting funding on every metric but tax cuts for wealthy elites.

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