[Lore]Blizzards big mistakes - When did it all start going wrong? And what caused it?

[DemonHunter18]

I know, at the time it came across like he just wanted to try it out and see if he could actually do it, because he didn't get the admiration he was due, in his mind. But take away the 'I'm dOiNg iT fOr tHe grEAteR GoOd'-trope in the scene Xe'ra shows us and he's still whining about not getting the admiration he is due for his heroic intervention and the power he displays, throwing a tantrum and running away sulking. So to me it simply did not make a difference if they gave a reason for him doing something, or a different reason for him doing something, because the characterization behind it was still the same old entitled brat Illidan he had always been.

It did change a little in the book afterwards, when there are actually points in the story where he questions himself, but that doesn't happen until about the time BC comes around and changes nothing about his actions. And in BC itself we got no insight on his reasoning at all, we only knew he was fighting against the Legion too.

yeah but we only get that after 10 years.

that's the point of this.

they changed it.

pre Legion Illidan is different than the one in Legion and his book. in the book, he literally had a plan since TFT.

[formerShandalay]

yeah but we only get that after 10 years.

that's the point of this.

they changed it.

pre Legion Illidan is different than the one in Legion and his book. in the book, he literally had a plan since TFT.

Yes and my point is, since while never knew why he suddenly changed his mind and didn't want to kill his brother and Tyrande anymore, when at one point he was going to in exchange for power, even before the book, we just always thought he was being crazy and inconsistent. I know they probably came up with much of his reasons much later than in WC3 or even later than the War of the Ancients novel, but the reasons given make his whole schtick with being on one side and then suddenly the other make sense. It's explained perfectly and fits him and his characterization up to that point perfectly. His characterization was allowed to completely remain the same, only reasons were given for things that before made little to no sense.

So to me, nothing has changed. Context was added, but nothing was changed about Illidan or his characterization. Sulking entitled emo brat with bad communication abilities remained sulking entitled emo brat with bad communication abilities. And love for his brother and Tyrande. Though I do guess this isn't going to be the case or play a role the next time we see him.

[DemonHunter18]

Yes and my point is, since while never knew why he suddenly changed his mind and didn't want to kill his brother and Tyrande anymore, when at one point he was going to in exchange for power, even before the book, we just always thought he was being crazy and inconsistent. I know they probably came up with much of his reasons much later than in WC3 or even later than the War of the Ancients novel, but the reasons given make his whole schtick with being on one side and then suddenly the other make sense. It's explained perfectly and fits him and his characterization up to that point perfectly. His characterization was allowed to completely remain the same, only reasons were given for things that before made little to no sense.

So to me, nothing has changed. Context was added, but nothing was changed about Illidan or his characterization. Sulking entitled emo brat with bad communication abilities remained sulking entitled emo brat with bad communication abilities. And love for his brother and Tyrande. Though I do guess this isn't going to be the case or play a role the next time we see him.

he never wanted them dead though. Tyrande did die almost because of him since he warned Azshara about their plan to destroy the Well during original WotA.

everything clashes with his TBC portrayal.

[formerShandalay]

he never wanted them dead though. Tyrande did die almost because of him since he warned Azshara about their plan to destroy the Well during original WotA.

everything clashes with his TBC portrayal.

In TBC he was almost not portrayed at all. He imprisoned Maiev at some point before we arrived and did the thing with Akama and the other Broken, also way before we ever got there, then he started teaching and producing new Demonhunters, also from way before we arrived on the scene. Same goes for Magtheridon and the new Fel-orcs (even back then shown as affiliated with Illidan and strangely not with the Legion or even beholden to Magtheridon after drinking his blood. This at the time raised some questions)
We saw him show up once in the Netherwing questline and that was it until we fought him directly.

All we got back in TBC was second hand information and no background.

I mean, yes, the information we got in Legion was new, but it fit the story and nothing was actually changed, apart from there being information at all. To me that is not exactly a bad thing, it's more of a plus.

[DemonHunter18]

In TBC he was almost not portrayed at all. He imprisoned Maiev at some point before we arrived and did the thing with Akama and the other Broken, also way before we ever got there, then he started teaching and producing new Demonhunters, also from way before we arrived on the scene. Same goes for Magtheridon and the new Fel-orcs (even back then shown as affiliated with Illidan and strangely not with the Legion or even beholden to Magtheridon after drinking his blood. This at the time raised some questions)
We saw him show up once in the Netherwing questline and that was it until we fought him directly.

All we got back in TBC was second hand information and no background.

I mean, yes, the information we got in Legion was new, but it fit the story and nothing was actually changed, apart from there being information at all. To me that is not exactly a bad thing, it's more of a plus.

you mean he had orcs drink demons blood xd

the newest thing is that he planned all this for +10,000 years.

[formerShandalay]

you mean he had orcs drink demons blood xd

the newest thing is that he planned all this for +10,000 years.

Yes, he had the orcs drink Magtheridon's blood is what I meant

And well his plan for 10k years was fighting the Legion and the thing that we got told in the book was that he realized that the Legion could not be fought with normal means. Then he kind of made up his mind as he went along, was my impression. Not that he had this pre-formed plan and just set it in motion when he got out. He didn't even know half the things he needed to know for the plan we read about in the book.
And fighting the Legion is not a new plan, not even for the rest of the Nightelves. That was what they intended to do all those 10k years long. The long vigil was exactly that.

[Jaggler]

Three, as recent as BfA, it was said that when Sylvanas raised people into undeath that she kept their soul from moving on. It's why Bwonsamdi and the Lich King wanted her DEAD. she was fucking with the balance. But now according to Shadowlands lore, she has been sending souls to the Jailer on purpose. This directly contradicts what NPCs said in the Vol'jin questline. It's literally like Blizzard just doesn't give a flying fuck about their own lore anymore.

I have absolutely no faith in the next expansion and I could very easily see it being WoW's last.

That isn't really a contradiction tho. SHe doesn't raise everyone to undeath, there are still a ton of souls being sent to the maw.

[Mehrunes]

That isn't really a contradiction tho. SHe doesn't raise everyone to undeath, there are still a ton of souls being sent to the maw.

Just before BfA she wanted to raise the entire population of Stormwind. The Shadowlands revelation is a clear-cut example of Blizzard making a twist only after the fact without any regard as to whether past events fit it or not.

[Beefhammer]

It all began with WoD

• The entire WoD expansion was a filler expansion. Mists of Pandaria ended with an obvious lead in to Legion (which Blizzard admitted was supposed to be the next expansion)... and then we deteour to another planet in an alternate timeline that never comes back up again in the story. Felt like it only existed to cash in on the Warcraft movie that was releasing that year and featured the same characters.

• Hiding crucial plot twists and character development in ancilliary novels. At the end of Mists of Pandaria, Garrosh is taken prisoner and to be put in trial in Pandaria. The very next thing that happens in the game is that Azeroth is being suddenly invaded by a brand new faction called "The Iron Horde", from an alternate Draenor in the past, and that is was created by Garrosh. Wait, what? For some inexplicable reason, Wrathion, who was the arguably the main character of MoP, is now suddenly the villain. Wait, what? What is going on? Well, you will only find out if you had read a novel called War Crimes, in which Wrathion decides he needs to prepare the Horde and the Alliance to work together against the impending Legion threat, and decides to break Garrosh out of jail and have him create an enemy that will force the Horde and the Alliance to coordinate a joint campaign. None of this is explained ingame.

• In Shadowmoon Valley, we are introduced to a new faction called "The Void Lords", who turn out to be the bosses of the old gods and the faction Sargeras was so terrified of, he started the Burning Legion to preemptively kill unhatched titans so that they couldn't be corrupted by the Void Lords. Trivializes the threat of the old gods and the Burning Legion when they are no longer the end goal of the story, but just another lackey on the way to the true big bads.

• The final boss of WoD is Archimonde. No, not alternate timeline Archimonde. Blizzard decided that there is "one Legion that pervades across all timelines". Oh, and demons can only die if killed in the Twisting Nether, and Archimonde (who is an Eredar, not a demon) has now been retconned into being a demon. WTH? This completely negates the weight of Warcraft 3's ending, where the Night Elves sacrificed their immortality to defeat Archimonde and save the world. A complete spit on the face of Warcraft 3 players and Night Elf fans.

• AU Grommash Hellscream was an unrepetent mass murderer, and committed one of the most despiscable atrocities in the Warcraft setting: the Path of Glory (aka, slaughtering hundreds of thousands of Draenei and using their dead bodies as pavement to the Dark Portal). At the end of the expansion, the protagonists just let him go like he didn't commit mass genocide against them.

• More hiding crucial plot twists and character development in ancilliary novels. Illidan Stormrage was salty that his brother, Malfurion, was so chad, that Illidan's crush Tyrande picked his Malfurion of him. He then run away to Outland to become a dictator, taking over the world, sacrificing innocents to empower himself, etc. He was an evil villain the player overthrew and killed in Burning Crusade. Then, in Legion, Illidan is now all of the sudden the great savior who will save our world from the Burning Legion. Wait, what? What is going on? Well, you will only find out if you had read a novel called Illidan, which retcons Illidan's backstory and explains that ACKSHUALLY he was working to fight against the Legion all along! (And for some inexplicable reason, didn't stop to tell us he was doing so, instead going "muwhahaha I'm so evil" the entire time...). None of this is explained ingame.

• The Argent Crusade - the fan favorite hero faction of WotLK - is brought back and unceremoniously killed offscreen in the first five minutes of the expansion, and Tirion too. A complete spit on the face on WotLK players.

• Vol'jin, the Warchief of the Horde after MoP, is unceremoniously killed off having never had the chance to do anything in the story. I think the only thing he did was show up in your garrison to give you a promotion. A complete spit on the face of Horde players who were looking forward to seeing one of the OG Horde leaders preside over the old school, honorable Horde we fought for in MoP. Worse, a diabolos ex machina has him appoint Sylvanas Windrunner as Warchief, because Blizzard wanted to pander to her fan following.

• After having resolved the faction war storyline to everyone's satisfaction in MoP, Blizzard goes back to the well of Warcraft nostalgia and revives the faction war through utterly contrived reasons (the Horde and Alliance had JUST WORKED TOGETHER FOR AN ENTIRE EXPANSION TO SAVE THE WORLD; no one bothers communicating with each other anymore; Sylvanas, Genn, and Rogers act stupid, etc).

• In Legion, Illidan is brought back and treated as the hero of the story who everyone worships... despite the fact that he is a backstabbing traitor and a brutal dictator who took over Outland and began using people's souls as fuel. Yet, the narrative and the characters of Legion treat him as this paragon who will lead everybody.

• In the Death Knight campaign, the Knights of the Ebon Blade invade the Paladin Order Hall underneath Light's Hope Chapel, slaughtering paladins left and right (Yup! The very same paladins the Ebon Blade had fought along with side by side against the Lich King, who they should be fighting with side by side against the Legion!) to steal the body of Tirion Fordring and raise him as an undead. This is stupid! The Ebon Blade wants people who can "do what we needs to be done", but Tirion was a stalwart paladin. He had qualms sacrificing his own troops. He isn't anti-hero material. Worse, it's revealed that the massacre wasn't, actually, to raise Tirion as a Death Knight, but a "test of loyalty", to see whether or not the Ebon Blade could "do what what needed to be done". EXCUSE ME? As a Death Knight player, I feel insulted. We have proved hundreds of times over that we are capable, and you sent us out to murder our allies over something this stupid? The Ebon Blade is needs all the allies it can get, and they straight up demolished their relationship with their closest ally, not to mention no one will ever want to associate with them again. What a farce.

• The "Light" is retconned as not being a truly holy, righteous anchor in this chaotic world, but just "another side of the same coin" in a poor attempt at being "morally grey". Completely undermines why the Light was so special in the first place, and a spit upon paladin and priest players.

• At Blizzcon 2017, BFA was announced, and it was revealed that the start of the new faction war was that Teldrassil burned down. Blizzard asked the question: "who burned the tree?", and insisted for months that it wasn't Sylvanas, and that the perpetrator was unknown. Blizzard continually hyped up the reveal. Come the prepatch event, and lo and behold Sylvanas invades Night Elf territory and begin slaughtering elves left and right, and the Horde actually goes along with this. Slaughtering... you know, THE PEOPLE YOU HAD JUST WORKED TOGETHER WITH FOR TWO ENTIRE EXPANSIONS TO SAVE THE WORLD! For some inexplicable reason, Horde druids - who are apart of the Cenarion Circle - are also slaughtering their fellow Cenarion Circle Druids - because they're Alliance. Sylvanas throws a tantrum because a dying elf didn't buy her moustache twirling villain facade, and burns down Teldrassil, massacring the majority of the Night Elf population. The Horde actually goes along with this, even though the Horde should be protesting this because they had spent most of their recent history being genocided and they know more than anyone else what it's like. Completely undermines the sacrifices made in MoP to fight for the old, honorable Horde. A complete spit in the face of Horde and Night Elf players.

• Even MORE hiding crucial plot twists and character development in ancilliary novels! At the end of Legion, the Horde and the Alliance had united together to defeat the Burining Legion once and for all, saving Azeroth from the greatest threat it had ever faced. The very next thing that happens in the game is that Sylvanas massacres tens of thousands of Night Elves and instigates a war with the Alliance. Wait, what? What is going on? Well, you will only find out if you had read novel called "Before the Storm", in which we get insight into Sylvanas' mind and the Horde's strategic situation. None of this is explained ingame.

• In 2016, the first Warcraft Chronicle book was released, advertised by Blizzard as the official, word of god chronology of the setting's history. Nice! Then, at Blizzcon 2019, the Chronicles books were declared to be "written from the point of view of the Titans", retconning them as no longer being the official record. Why did they even go through all of the effort of tidying up their lore and advertising the books as the official, word of god history of the setting if it was just going to be retconned a couple years later anyway?

• Oh, and BTW, Sylvanas' motivations in "Before the Storm" were retconned, so why did you buy that book anyway?

• The Emerald Nightmare storyline being hyped up for years, being an expansion's worth of material with several subplots and dozens of involved characters. Is dealt with in a single raid.

• Azshara and the Naga storyline being hyped up for years, being an expansion's worth of material with several subplots and dozens of involved characters. Is dealt with in a single raid. Worse, despite Azshara having comitted mass genocide and being one of the most evil characters in the setting, the protagonists just let her go so she can come back as a quest NPC in another expansion.

• The N'zoth storyline being hyped up for years, being an expansion's worth of material with several subplots and dozens of involved characters. Is dealt with in a single raid. Worse, Blizzard kept insisting that N'zoth had a master plan... only for him to turn out to be a nothing throw away baddie who is killed in a forty second long cutscene.

• There were no consequences in BFA. A godzilla monster shoots a laser beam at Daz'Alor, and yet when you walk around the city, all is fine. Daz'Alor is raided by the Alliance, and yet when you walk around the city, all is fine. N'zoth is released... and then he doesn't do anything. He is killed, and all is fine.

• Suevanas strolling into Icecrown Citadel and soloing the Lich King and his army with her resting bitch face.

• The premise of the eigth expansion, Shadowlands, revolves around traveling to the death realm. It is revealed that when people die, their souls are sent to the Shadowlands and used as a fuel for the people who inhabit the Shadowlands, powering their machines. This just seals the deal on modern WoW's nihilism, where nothing means anything at all, and a spit in the face of characters like Crusader Bridenbrad, who had an entire storyline revolving around his impending death and the comfort that he would go to the Light (way back when the Light was actually good and holy, and not just some "another side of the same coin").

• Please be sure to buy the next anciliary novel, "Shadows Rising", in which how Sylvanas was retconned from being a genocidial bitch to the glorious saviour who was save us all from the Jailor, who the Jailor is, how the Lich King was retconned into being the gatekeeper of the Shadowlands, and how the Horde and the Alliance invade the Shadowlands!

Gonna need a source on Blizzard admitting Legion was supposed to be after MoP..

[TheRevenantHero]

Just before BfA she wanted to raise the entire population of Stormwind. The Shadowlands revelation is a clear-cut example of Blizzard making a twist only after the fact without any regard as to whether past events fit it or not.

I was actually just about to say this lol

[DemonHunter18]

And well his plan for 10k years was fighting the Legion and the thing that we got told in the book was that he realized that the Legion could not be fought with normal means. Then he kind of made up his mind as he went along, was my impression. Not that he had this pre-formed plan and just set it in motion when he got out. He didn't even know half the things he needed to know for the plan we read about in the book.
And fighting the Legion is not a new plan, not even for the rest of the Nightelves. That was what they intended to do all those 10k years long. The long vigil was exactly that.

sure if we got by WotA trilogy.

remove WoW and books, you pretty much only have WC3 Illidan with no planning.

which is kinda of a point here in this thread.

[Nize]

The biggest issue with BFA's story is that it focused too much on what's coming up NEXT rather than dealing with what's going on NOW. This whole expansion was a build up to Sylvanas becoming the villain in the next expansion, and it merely glossed over what we had this expansion, notably Azshara and N'zoth. Even the finale scenes of this xpac are characters dealing with the after-effects of Sylvanas throughout BFA and not the bigger issue we (should) have had with N'zoth. I don't hate Sylvanas and I'm actually more excited to see her in her new role next expansion than when she was Warchief of the Horde, but it should have been an appetizer here in BFA, not the full course meal.

[sam86]

it begin in Cata when Ghostcrawler said that they always struggled with lore vs gameplay, and Cata they decided to just f8ck lore and go full out for gameplay
prior to that they still gave a f8ck about lore, gameplay still f8cked lore in some aspects but they still were thinking about lore, from cata forward if idea is cool do it, then twist lore and bend it to fit the idea

[Jaggler]

I was actually just about to say this lol

She could use the undead armies from Stormwind to bolster her forces to cause even more death. It doesn't really matter whether she raises them and kills them off herself or they fall in battle. We saw that she isn't above killing her own forces.

[Sioliar]

Thank you for reminding me just how bad the plot lines of this game are.

[TheRevenantHero]

She could use the undead armies from Stormwind to bolster her forces to cause even more death. It doesn't really matter whether she raises them and kills them off herself or they fall in battle. We saw that she isn't above killing her own forces.

The point is, she planned on raising EVERYONE she killed. But suddenly she was feeding the Jailer? As was said, Blizzard literally doesn't give a fuck about being properly coherent with their lore anymore.

[Jastall]

Uh, it's been long, long established that individuals with, how can I put it... "Questionable morals and values" are still able to utilize and channel the Light's power.

The ability to use the Light comes from CONVICTION, not "goodness" or whatever sappy nonsense you've presumed about its nature.

Indeed. Arthas was still using the Light when he was slaughtering innocents in Stratholme (with a reason, but still) or forcing his men to aid him in his personal quest for vengeance against Mal'ganis. The Scarlet Crusade in vanilla was a group of zealots so fanatical they killed everyone who wasn't them, other humans included, while being controlled by a Dreadlord, and they still used the Light just fine. The idea that Blizzard made the Light just as bad as the Void or Fel because X'era exists is nonsense, she's not even close to the worst Light user we've seen.

As for the topic, @Yarathir sums it up quite well. The narrative is a bunch of "twists" and "shocking" moments tied together by a loose thread. I just don't think this is new, even back in WC3 there was some of that, but they really kicked it into overdrive in WoW and especially BFA.

[Ardenaso]

The point is, she planned on raising EVERYONE she killed. But suddenly she was feeding the Jailer? As was said, Blizzard literally doesn't give a fuck about being properly coherent with their lore anymore.

probably raise them to kill more people, and when she's done she disposes them dead. ez.

[formerShandalay]

sure if we got by WotA trilogy.

remove WoW and books, you pretty much only have WC3 Illidan with no planning.

which is kinda of a point here in this thread.

Yes, if you take all of the development away, sure, then you have a completely undeveloped character with no goals, no plan and just some more or less stupid voice-lines. That's not what I would call good lore, though and that's why I'm arguing for development, adding context and explaining reasons later on. It's about 'where did it start to go wrong' and I personally think you can't exactly pinpoint that, because there were good things added in the lore for some people after WC3 (in my opinion Illidan being one of those) and bad things being added after WC3 (I was really not ok with a two faction system with the Nightelves going Alliance and the Forsaken going Horde when they announced that's what would happen... in Alpha or Beta stage of WoW, I can't quite remember^^).

Although I know quite a few people that do not like new lore being added to existing stuff in general, I myself like it, as long as it doesn't actually change the deeper meaning of any given thing or the role a person essentially played. Like the example of Illidan. Yea, added context, plans, whatnot, but none of his actions changed, none of his actual characterization changed and the story remained essentially the same. We only had a nutty naaru screaming into our ears that the events were somehow different than what it actually showed us. But that's not changing the story, that is just someone being delusional or lying about something.

[DemonHunter18]

Yes, if you take all of the development away, sure, then you have a completely undeveloped character with no goals, no plan and just some more or less stupid voice-lines. That's not what I would call good lore, though and that's why I'm arguing for development, adding context and explaining reasons later on. It's about 'where did it start to go wrong' and I personally think you can't exactly pinpoint that, because there were good things added in the lore for some people after WC3 (in my opinion Illidan being one of those) and bad things being added after WC3 (I was really not ok with a two faction system with the Nightelves going Alliance and the Forsaken going Horde when they announced that's what would happen... in Alpha or Beta stage of WoW, I can't quite remember^^).

he did have a goal though.

pretty good one.