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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Pretty certain there's only 1 Archimonde and KJ post-Fel amp.
    we've only seen one demon kj and arch.

    but we've seen at least one person who had become a demon in the main universe alive and well in the alternate, othaar. there's also a soul echo(to be fair, we have no idea what these even are) of othaar on mac'aree. othaar, by the time we reach him, hadn't become a demon, but had pledged himself and taken in fel. he transforms right in front of us.

    socrethar was killed in netherstorm in the MU. he could have been permanently killed, but we can't be sure, so seeing othaar transform may not be entirely indicative of the process, but it's the only observation of two instances of a demon's existence.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    we've only seen one demon kj and arch.

    but we've seen at least one person who had become a demon in the main universe alive and well in the alternate, othaar. there's also a soul echo(to be fair, we have no idea what these even are) of othaar on mac'aree. othaar, by the time we reach him, hadn't become a demon, but had pledged himself and taken in fel. he transforms right in front of us.

    socrethar was killed in netherstorm in the MU. he could have been permanently killed, but we can't be sure, so seeing othaar transform may not be entirely indicative of the process, but it's the only observation of two instances of a demon's existence.
    My assumption is this:

    When you become a Demon in a timeline, all other versions of you are instantly gone till death. Then, as soon as you're permanently killed, the other timeline versions of you are restored, hence why Socrethar happened twice.

    However, due the Legion's defeat at Antorus, it's unlikely we'll ever see something like this happen to an AU Archimonde, KJ, or Velen.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    My assumption is this:

    When you become a Demon in a timeline, all other versions of you are instantly gone till death. Then, as soon as you're permanently killed, the other timeline versions of you are restored, hence why Socrethar happened twice.

    However, due the Legion's defeat at Antorus, it's unlikely we'll ever see something like this happen to an AU Archimonde, KJ, or Velen.
    there could be some enterprising nathrezim or powerful eredar lords still roaming the nether. we didn't kill the entire legion, just unbound them to sargeras' will.

    but i'm still fuzzy what was said about the legion and AU's, but i'm pretty sure they didn't like them for some reason. i think it might be because they're so fleeting and fizzle out unless the MU interferes.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    i think someone said somewhere that sargeras or the legion wasn't fond of alternate timelines, but i can't remember where or what actually said it or if it was said. i remember something about the legion and alternates being said for sure.
    They prevented any stable ones from forming, which is likely also why they went to Draenor in WoD. Just makes their work harder if they left them. Which is why they don't like them: every stable AT that forms means another universe they need to purge.

    But generally, they just ignore them because they collapse on their own and so no action is necessary.
    Last edited by huth; 2020-02-15 at 08:19 AM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    They prevented any stable ones from forming, which is likely also why they went to Draenor in WoD. Just makes their work harder if they left them.

    But generally, they just ignore them because they collapse on their own and so no action is necessary.
    that's what i was thinking.

    strange that any could potentially stabilize. i suppose maybe those were the ones that the infinite flight messed with from bc to cata, rather than just random ones spawning and stabilizing. if it wasn't, and they can stabilize, we might be in for some shit now that there's no unified vision for the legion.

  6. #26
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    Easy: all other versions of you die when you decide to become a demon.
    Problem with that is if that happened then there would be no AU Archimonde or Kil'Jaeden to oppose Velen in his choice not to side with Sargeras so they wouldn't have to escape to Draenor. It would have to rewrite history and literally erase them from other timelines, if that were the case wouldn't we have more extremely menacing Eradar from alternate timelines that also sided with Sargeras in alternate universes? Then if you consider that, wouldn't it be possible there was some alternate universe Velen that actually sided with a Sargeras?

    They really fudged some things up with this only one version of the demons.

    Or the only other thing I can think of was if there is only one timeline and it takes going back in time and altering history to create a divergent timeline like in Dragon Ball. Garrosh going back in time created a new timeline...but the new timeline didn't exist till Garrosh created it so it would be a semi-plausible excuse as to why there is only one Kil'jaeden and Archimonde.
    Last edited by Kithelle; 2020-02-15 at 08:27 AM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Pretty certain there's only 1 Archimonde and KJ post-Fel amp.
    We have no evidence of that. We only have evidence that there is(well, was) at least one of each. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

    The entire "only one demon version total" thing is an unsubstantiated fan hypothesis that was never even hinted at by Blizzard.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    We have no evidence of that. We only have evidence that there is(well, was) at least one of each. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

    The entire "only one demon version total" thing is an unsubstantiated fan hypothesis that was never even hinted at by Blizzard.
    I mean, it's confirmed on more than one occasion that there's only 1 Legion, and that the Legion transcends realities. I would assume that once you become a demon, all other versions of you are written out of existence until death. I mean, why do you think we fought our Archimonde in WoD? And not some AU counterpart?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    there could be some enterprising nathrezim or powerful eredar lords still roaming the nether. we didn't kill the entire legion, just unbound them to sargeras' will.

    but i'm still fuzzy what was said about the legion and AU's, but i'm pretty sure they didn't like them for some reason. i think it might be because they're so fleeting and fizzle out unless the MU interferes.
    There could, but they'll likely in small factions now. That, or they're doing their own thing. Maybe in 10.0, if we release Sargeras, we'll get the Legion back.

  9. #29
    Blizzard created an extremely complicated lore bible and then threw it away. End of story.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    "Chronicle Vol. 3" more or less closed the paradoxical plot-holes that WoD opened up as concerns demons, the Nether, multiple universes/timelines, etc. etc. The Nether is no longer transcendent over all realities anymore, it's just a dimension within the primary timeline's cosmos, and all the other non-primary timelines or universes are ephemeral constructs with very limited scope and overall lifetime, collapsing back into inert nonexistence when their time is done. The only exception to this general rule is the WoD timeline, which was tampered with via the Vision of Time and Kairozdormu's meddling, permitted to remain extant far longer than would be normal for a divergent timeline. The Legion, like anyone else capable of utilizing the connection between the primary timeline and this new altered AU timeline, could jump into WoD's universe to take advantage of its resources. Any "duplicates" who become demons in this timeline would remain a duplicate demon (e.g. Socrethar) and not coalesce or otherwise replace their previous self. They're essentially independent selves with different histories as a result of the tampering and in some cases the very nature of the AU before it was tampered with (such as Rulkan being alive, or Garrosh not being born, etc. etc.)

    With AU timelines now temporary and in a constant state of collapse, there's no reason for the Legion to bother with them and they probably don't contain Titan World-Souls that the Void or the Pantheon could utilize (since the universe would collapse well before any such World-Soul could finish gestating). They remain virtual palimpsests no one really need bother with.
    Except it doesn't, no matter how many times you repeat this. The fragment of the Chronicle talks about alternate timelines only. In context of Thrall's time traveling adventures during Cata if I recall. And given Blizzard's decision during WoD's development to change WoD from an alternate timeline to an alternate universe and their explanation for it, alternate universes and alternate timelines are not one and the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  11. #31
    Merely a Setback Trassk's Avatar
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    It doesn't work

    Blizzard just hopes we don't think about it to hard.
    #boycottchina

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    Problem with that is if that happened then there would be no AU Archimonde or Kil'Jaeden to oppose Velen in his choice not to side with Sargeras so they wouldn't have to escape to Draenor. It would have to rewrite history and literally erase them from other timelines, if that were the case wouldn't we have more extremely menacing Eradar from alternate timelines that also sided with Sargeras in alternate universes? Then if you consider that, wouldn't it be possible there was some alternate universe Velen that actually sided with a Sargeras?

    They really fudged some things up with this only one version of the demons.
    Maybe few expansions down the line we'll learn that there exists Fellands dimension where some Fel Arbiter figure has a ledger of all souls that ever existed anywhere and makes sure that duplicate demons are handled properly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    It doesn't work

    Blizzard just hopes we don't think about it to hard.
    Or at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  13. #33
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    Easy: all other versions of you die when you decide to become a demon.
    My headcanon is that your other versions are unaffected when you become a demon. But if another version of you also becomes a demon, the two are merged together in the nether.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    It doesn't work

    Blizzard just hopes we don't think about it to hard.
    i think it works fine, when you conceptualize what is happening.

    picture the mutiverse as a collection of bubbles, all stuck almost directly together with a small space of liquid between them. that liquid is the nether. now picture our universe bubble as boiling, and little bubbles forming on it, those are the AU's.

    that's how it all fits together, from the descriptions we have right now.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    Problem with that is if that happened then there would be no AU Archimonde or Kil'Jaeden to oppose Velen in his choice not to side with Sargeras so they wouldn't have to escape to Draenor. It would have to rewrite history and literally erase them from other timelines, if that were the case wouldn't we have more extremely menacing Eradar from alternate timelines that also sided with Sargeras in alternate universes? Then if you consider that, wouldn't it be possible there was some alternate universe Velen that actually sided with a Sargeras?

    They really fudged some things up with this only one version of the demons.

    Or the only other thing I can think of was if there is only one timeline and it takes going back in time and altering history to create a divergent timeline like in Dragon Ball. Garrosh going back in time created a new timeline...but the new timeline didn't exist till Garrosh created it so it would be a semi-plausible excuse as to why there is only one Kil'jaeden and Archimonde.
    the legion trascends all realities but they cant time travel, history doesnt get altered because of it.

  16. #36
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piamonte View Post
    the legion trascends all realities but they cant time travel, history doesnt get altered because of it.
    Yeah but if it covers all realities how are there not just a dozen copes of Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde? It can't be because our universe is the only one that had them do that...the Draenei in the AU still ran away from Argus...so once their AU versions accepted Sargeras' offer they just merged with our universe's versions?

    Assuming Sargeras' offer is accepted in multiple universes wouldn't it need to be accepted at the exact same time not to mess with things? How do demons oversee multiple universes at the exact same time? It's all confusing...

    All time travel does typically is end up creating more questions...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    i think it works fine, when you conceptualize what is happening.

    picture the mutiverse as a collection of bubbles, all stuck almost directly together with a small space of liquid between them. that liquid is the nether. now picture our universe bubble as boiling, and little bubbles forming on it, those are the AU's.

    that's how it all fits together, from the descriptions we have right now.
    Well it's not the alternate universes that are the problem, it's more that they say only one copy of any given character exists in the twisting nether which is very confusing when they don't tell us what happens...we don't know what happens to these alternate demons from alternate universe...do they somehow merge into one singular being? Do the others just cease to exist?

    Since the Demons are virtually out of the picture for the time being we may never know...

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    Well it's not the alternate universes that are the problem, it's more that they say only one copy of any given character exists in the twisting nether which is very confusing when they don't tell us what happens...we don't know what happens to these alternate demons from alternate universe...do they somehow merge into one singular being? Do the others just cease to exist?

    Since the Demons are virtually out of the picture for the time being we may never know...
    it's probably safe to assume that the demon either exists twice, or given the nature of the nether as existing at the border of every other plane of existence, the demonic soul fuses into the original demon.

    imo, it wouldn't make sense if the souls of AU people were as fundamental as MU souls. therefore, any existential transformations to them wouldn't be as profound. the fel-corrupt anima, most likely, just flows into the original demon. we know that AU's lack any permanence unless given permanence by the MU too heavily interacting with it, and even that permanence seems to only last so long.

  18. #38
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    it's probably safe to assume that the demon either exists twice, or given the nature of the nether as existing at the border of every other plane of existence, the demonic soul fuses into the original demon.

    imo, it wouldn't make sense if the souls of AU people were as fundamental as MU souls. therefore, any existential transformations to them wouldn't be as profound. the fel-corrupt anima, most likely, just flows into the original demon. we know that AU's lack any permanence unless given permanence by the MU too heavily interacting with it, and even that permanence seems to only last so long.
    With the changes brought about by "Chronicle Vol. 3" I'd say it's likely that most of the AU timelines don't have demons to speak of, except in some rare cases like in WoD or other cases where tampering occurs. Demons are native to the Twisting Nether, which is now only truly adjacent to the primary timeline's physical universe. All the other timelines pop in and out of existence randomly, separate from all else; there's little need for the Legion to exploit them and the monumental difficulty of access makes it even more unlikely. AU Draenor is special in that it was both stabilized by Kairoz and had a massive turnpike leading into it in the form of the redirected Dark Portal - giving the Legion both access, and valuable assets to recruit once more (namely AU Gul'dan).

    As for AU demons that do manage to come into existence, I'd say it is likely they remain discrete and separate from their MU selves - just like Socrethar and Teron Gorefiend's MU and AU selves are obviously separate. In the case of WoD and AU Draenor it could be possible for AU demons to make it back to the Nether on death, via the Dark Portal's connection to the Azeroth and thus the MU universe, and then on the Nether from there. But for the other AU timelines it's likely that the few demons that exist in those timelines just blink into non-existence on death, or their souls remain bound to the physical universe and unable to regenerate their demonic forms for the remainder of the AU timeline's brief existence.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Piamonte View Post
    only nathrezim are natural demons.
    Shadowlands is going to retcon this. Nathrezim are going to be fel tainted versions of those gargoyles.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    just like Socrethar and Teron Gorefiend's MU and AU selves are obviously separate.
    i don't know if we can say this for sure. socrethar is killed in netherstorm, which seems to be in the nether. it may be safe to assume he was permanently slain. gorefiend in the MU didn't become a demon, he was just put into the corpse of a dead human knight, meaning his death was just a normal mortal death.

    as for the the nether connecting to AU's, i think it's a given that it is connected to the AU's. kil'jaeden contacted AU gul'dan long before the portal opened, perhaps before garrosh even got to AU outland. the nether's transcendent nature means that it should be directly adjacent to any new universes, just as it is to all other existing planes.

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