In What Ways could Shadowlands end up sucking?

[Flower Milk]

My biggest worry is how important the Covenant system is going to be for performing optimally at your role depending on what content you're doing. Looking at the abilities you get, it looks like your Covenant choice is entirely dependent on what content you do the most. And if you want to do other content, like M+ or PVP instead of raiding, you have to swap Covenants and grind them up again.

I really don't see how that isn't going to be a problem. People keep saying this is an issue that will only affect 1% of players, but people are not going to bring people for M+ or arena matches if they haven't selected the right Covenant for their class for it. People are already picky as hell for those things about who they bring, it's already a problem. Remember when some classes at the start of BfA were really awful and were just not brought to M+ at all? It obviously affected more than just the top 1% of players.

I don't see how the Blizzard devs aren't noticing this huge glaring issue. Like either they just aren't seeing how this is going to be a problem, or they don't care because people swapping between Covenants means they're going to be putting more time into the game and playing it more, increasing that MUA metric for shareholders. Yikes.

[McNeil]

The one thing I fear currently is that Shadowlands feels to ''small''. We will only get 4 questing zones that are all disconnected from each other, though we don't know their sizes yet. There are not many new features at all so we're probably back to do mythics and raids. The game is still a long time away so hopefully we will get to see something interesting.

[dcc626]

My biggest worry is how important the Covenant system is going to be for performing optimally at your role depending on what content you're doing. Looking at the abilities you get, it looks like your Covenant choice is entirely dependent on what content you do the most. And if you want to do other content, like M+ or PVP instead of raiding, you have to swap Covenants and grind them up again.

I really don't see how that isn't going to be a problem. People keep saying this is an issue that will only affect 1% of players, but people are not going to bring people for M+ or arena matches if they haven't selected the right Covenant for their class for it. People are already picky as hell for those things about who they bring, it's already a problem. Remember when some classes at the start of BfA were really awful and were just not brought to M+ at all? It obviously affected more than just the top 1% of players.

I don't see how the Blizzard devs aren't noticing this huge glaring issue. Like either they just aren't seeing how this is going to be a problem, or they don't care because people swapping between Covenants means they're going to be putting more time into the game and playing it more, increasing that MUA metric for shareholders. Yikes.

heres the thing though, how do you fix the problem? you either make every ability exactly the same with different names or themes, or you make the system irrelevant because you can change them back and forth whenever you want.

people complain about the game not being a rpg anymore. do you remember having to actually make choices that reflected how you move forward in rpgs? because i do. being able to do whatever you want whenever you want without repurcussions is kind of the opposite.

[MrLachyG]

i'll comment on 2 of your points. because the rest of your points were pretty decent and made sense.
1) for the legendary . If there are drops and drop% involved when making an item of Legendary calibur, we have to hope that the drop rate isnt so low/scary that some players are just unlucky in getting those drops and not being to or very slowly completing their legendary.

2) its not that the GCD would change or be reverted, its that more spells/abilities the GCD list.So think of a spell that currently does not have a gcd... then imagine it now having a GCD in shadowlands.

1. I think it will be something similar to horrific visions - the further you progress, the more stuff you get.
2. well Blizz claim to be listening and the GCD change was pretty substantial. if i remember correctly though they have actually removed stuff from the gcd so I don't think they will add anything

[Flower Milk]

heres the thing though, how do you fix the problem? you either make every ability exactly the same with different names or themes, or you make the system irrelevant because you can change them back and forth whenever you want.

people complain about the game not being a rpg anymore. do you remember having to actually make choices that reflected how you move forward in rpgs? because i do. being able to do whatever you want whenever you want without repurcussions is kind of the opposite.

You either allow people to "Champion" another Covenant and use their abilities temporarily to do other content like M+ and arenas when they're not raiding. Or, we haven't seen the other abilities we get from Covenants yet. I'm hoping that, for example, the Covenant that provides a strong single target ability that is obviously good for raiding, also provides a decent AOE ability for doing M+ on the side. So while it is not "optimal" for doing M+, it's still good enough to actually get taken to M+ groups even though your main priority is raiding.

Either way, I'm not a game dev at WoW, I'm not getting paid to come up with solutions. All I can do is look at the information about Covenants they are providing to us, and give my feedback on it when I see issues with the system they're suggesting. I love choices in WoW and RPGs myself, but my biggest worry is that Ion said changing Covenants will function like changing from Aldor to Scyer, ie. a 6+ week grind. That's a very rigid and unforgiving choice, I don't want to make choices like that especially when it comes to abilities that are as powerful as talent choices.

[MrLachyG]

Sorry but thats totally bs. WQs killed wow more than anything else. It's not: go out in the world, it's go from here to there, do some shit and go on. That's by far the worst thing that happened in wow. Old world quests at least gave us a daily-hub and we still could go out on the world. I think the best outdoor-world-content is still Throne of Thunder (5.2). No WQs but we were still everywhere on the isle. Even the dailys had at least a storyline, this WQ-shite didn't. All the lore that 8.2 lost just because people still think that talking heads out of nowhere are still better. No thanks, WQs are bad.

how the hell are world quests worse than dailies? they are exactly the same thing, except that they aren't in a hub (spread out in a zone) and don't take up any room in ya quest log. you say that dailies take you out into the world and that world quests don't but that is just flat out not true.

[LDancer]

AP grind was fine in BfA. There are other grinds which are not fine. And it's not clear whether those other grinds will transfer to SL or not.

Reputation grind is bad.

Essences grind is bad.

Cloak grind is bad.

So basically anything you actually had to put effort into upgrading is bad?

My biggest issue and the thing that killed playing max level alts for me was the essences. I’ve put the work into them on my main, having them be account wide would have kept my interest a lot more.

Hopefully S’Lands will be more alt friendly.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Hate to say it but if you aren't a fan of corruption you might as well not even buy it.. it is going to be the new "you have to play endlessly to not fall behind and feel good on patch day catch up" device going forward.. it just won't be called corruption. Maybe not even have the same exact effect. But it will be something very similar.

[crazypeople]

Maybe if they remove their hardon for endless grind crap like TF/WF and corruption bullshit and just add regular items. They have to realise that their direction with the game is wrong. There's a reason why retail sub numbers are so low. And maybe try to balance the factions somewhat and stop focusing everything they have on horde? Just look at how awful the alliance allied races are. I feel sorry for them, I really do.

Basically don't do anything they're doing now and it might be an OK game at least.

[MrLachyG]

AP grind was fine in BfA. There are other grinds which are not fine. And it's not clear whether those other grinds will transfer to SL or not.

Reputation grind is bad.

Essences grind is bad.

Cloak grind is bad.

well to be fair reputation grinds are always bad. essences were bad if you were chasing purple but at least they made it revered for the last 2 factions instead of exalted. the cloak grind is fine, you just run the instance 2-3 times a week and you're done.

as for AP I believe that Coalescing Essence is the way of the future. you can choose how you want to get it - invasions or dailies. you have a max amount you can get a week and you can spend it on buying Vessels for Horrific Visions. now imagine if that system was expanded so that you got Essences from M+ chests, raiding, Conqueror's chest, emissaries with a set amount dropping from each source.

world quests give other shit instead, no AP - means there is no infinite grind, it is finite each week.

[Mardux]

Maybe if they remove their hardon for endless grind crap like TF/WF and corruption bullshit and just add regular items. They have to realise that their direction with the game is wrong. There's a reason why retail sub numbers are so low. And maybe try to balance the factions somewhat and stop focusing everything they have on horde? Just look at how awful the alliance allied races are. I feel sorry for them, I really do.

Basically don't do anything they're doing now and it might be an OK game at least.

Can you link your source for sub numbers being "so low"? I'd like to see exactly how many are subbed.

Though, if you're going to say they have been focusing everything they have on the horde, you probably couldnt be bothered to have actual facts or hard data.

- - - Updated - - -

So basically anything you actually had to put effort into upgrading is bad?

My biggest issue and the thing that killed playing max level alts for me was the essences. I’ve put the work into them on my main, having them be account wide would have kept my interest a lot more.

Hopefully S’Lands will be more alt friendly.

Exactly. People want to be able to only log on during raid nights and still be able to keep up with the players that put actual effort into being better.

[Swnem]

It's actually realy easy to make Shadowlands not suck. It would require reverting everything they did class and systems wise in the last 2 expansions.

But, i believe arrogance will prevent that. Making it suck is really easy too. It's just doing more of the same Legion/BfA stuff and keeping to ignore the community.

[Ielenia]

What ~could~ go wrong in shadowlands?

I find this to be an irrelevant discussion topic, because everything could go wrong with Shadowlands. But, on the other hand, everything could go right with Shadowlands, too.

In short, this is nothing but a thread aiming to spread more negativity about an expansion we know next to nothing about, simply because "it's cool to hate on Blizzard."

[Mardux]

The way it could end up sucking is if I don't like what it gives me. Then I quit. See how easy it is!

You're doing it wrong though. You dont *just* quit. You have to also be sure to come back to various forums every day just to try and drag people down with because someone enjoying something you dont is a huge no-no on these forums.

[MrLachyG]

I find this to be an irrelevant discussion topic, because everything could go wrong with Shadowlands. But, on the other hand, everything could go right with Shadowlands, too.

In short, this is nothing but a thread aiming to spread more negativity about an expansion we know next to nothing about, simply because "it's cool to hate on Blizzard."

it's cool to hate on Blizzard? well that's a bandwagon I am definitely jumping on! /s

[George Costanza]

Well to quote 4chan

>10 levels of 'story' being talking heads and NPC roleplay as they slowly get you used to the new grind system they introduce
>The new grind system is going to be MOP 2.0, which is daily rep grinds to unlock not valor gear, but worse, your actual fucking abilities
>You can only pick one faction to grind rep for during 9.0, some abilities are BiS but we won't know for the first few weeks so many people will be FUBAR because they have to reroll to their BiS faction, and knowing modern blizzards incompetence and not understanding the rule of cool, they'll probably put the best in slot abilities for classes in factions that don't make any fucking sense for them, like DKs and Paladins joining the Deathlords and Angelic factions respectively will likely be picking the worst options as the fairy faction will have their best in slot abilities
>It will probably take 6-8 weeks minimum to actually unlock your faction completely so you are raid viable, meaning you'll be stuck in LFD/LFR hell until then unless you're lucky enough to be in a guild that hasn't collapsed in the past 10 years from shitty WOW expansions killing guilds and servers
>9.1 comes along and unlocks 1 other faction for you to farm for, meaning you need to do the same daily world quests that you've been doing since 9.0 to unlock one other faction
>9.2 comes and unlocks all factions for every player, but you can only farm one at a time still, meaning that if you took a break and are coming back for 9.2 you're absolutely fucked into being in LFR hell because no one is going to take someone who doesn't have all 4 of their faction abilities unlocked
>9.3 comes along and Ion Hozzikostas does an AMA stream apologizing for why Shadowlands was a shit expansion and they'll be listening to feed back moving forward and improving the player experience, unlock all faction abilities for everyone regardless of reputation levels, but still lock flying rep

[Samuraijake]

You either allow people to "Champion" another Covenant and use their abilities temporarily to do other content like M+ and arenas when they're not raiding. Or, we haven't seen the other abilities we get from Covenants yet. I'm hoping that, for example, the Covenant that provides a strong single target ability that is obviously good for raiding, also provides a decent AOE ability for doing M+ on the side. So while it is not "optimal" for doing M+, it's still good enough to actually get taken to M+ groups even though your main priority is raiding.

Either way, I'm not a game dev at WoW, I'm not getting paid to come up with solutions. All I can do is look at the information about Covenants they are providing to us, and give my feedback on it when I see issues with the system they're suggesting. I love choices in WoW and RPGs myself, but my biggest worry is that Ion said changing Covenants will function like changing from Aldor to Scyer, ie. a 6+ week grind. That's a very rigid and unforgiving choice, I don't want to make choices like that especially when it comes to abilities that are as powerful as talent choices.

Altenative idea - would be nice if the covenants were strictly outside of raids n dungeons plus something that helps you get around the world just based on your covenant choice. For example - youre from Ardenweld (druid forresty covenant), so you get to teleport to darnassus on a 30m cd and when you run on grassy environments you get 50% movement speed. Crazy idea but it would be a starting concept.

If convenant stuff affected raids/dungeons, then you go back to the problem of being forced into a covenant which instantly has problems of its own. Currently right now there's no such thing as a "covenant" ability in current raids and people are living life just fine. This would introduce a new issue+balancing concerns.

[Doffen]

It's about having balance. Storm Peaks, Jade Forest, Grizzly Hills, Icecrown, Kun-Lai Summit, Frostfire Ridge, Talador, and Shadowmoon Valley are great examples of zones with mountain ranges and hills but not having so many that it dominates the entire zone and becomes an inconvenience.

All Legion zones are awfully cramped with Suramar feeling big because of how large the city area is, a size that no other city in wow has come close to in scale.

BFA zones are a big improvement in terms of not being mountainous theme parks, but the continents themselves have been separate so it shrinks the questing experience because it's split between Horde and Alliance. Having 3 zones to level up in is genuinely awful and I feel like BFA has probably got one of the worst leveling experiences because of that. I couldn't even bring myself to level my 2nd character to 120 because of it. Thank god Korrak's revenge came around!

I can see your point. Though I think personally Highmountain is a zone that make sense in how it is made. Storm Peaks is probably my favorite zone of all time(and a super questline) and there are indeed differences. Hellfire Peninsula vs Val'shara comes to mind. One is too plain, the other too much terrain. But that came with the time with the visuals and graphics improving from year to year. But it was definitely some issue with a zone like Val'shara. One zone where flying made it worse imo because of all the threes. Visually nice though.

And while BfA improved that kind of feeling with maybe less terrain, it is helped with the theme of the zones I feel. But what made it a bit worse is what you say, only three zones to level in which was something that could feel good on paper, but executed poorly. It would be better if they made all zones available to both factions, just make the questlines different. But that do take more resources and I think blizz see in hindsight that it didn't really work and in SL its back to normal. We had war campaign sure, but that was like 30 mins on each zone then head back home.

I do like the variety in BfA though, if you are tired of the zones you can level through Island Expedition, war Assaults and we had AV for many weeks which was a very nice anniversary thing really. It was indeed nice to level with that. Leveling fast while doing pvp(get rank 2 Blood of the Enemy achievement while still being 112-114 lol), get some transmog and stuff. Get some heritage armor which is actually an awesome reward for leveling. So in despite the lack of zones, leveling in BfA hasn't been that bad.

I do look forward to Shadowlands. The zones looks very nice in terms of the theme and the few visual examples we have gotten so far. The new leveling experience and how it is made faster is also nice imo. Want zones with few obstacles? Let's go to Outland!^^

I can't wait for more info!

- - - Updated - - -

You're doing it wrong though. You dont *just* quit. You have to also be sure to come back to various forums every day just to try and drag people down with because someone enjoying something you dont is a huge no-no on these forums.

Thanks for the tip! I'll consider it

[Professor Expert]

Imagine not even waiting for beta before you start complaining.

This is getting ridiculous.

Imagine thinking anyone has to wait after the dismal track record of recent WoW iterations. I just hope shadowlands continues the trend of making every single significant character female, while the male characters either "help out" or become overwhelmed with doubt and indecision. Just like real life.

What's ridiculous is the pathetic degree of shilling and fanaticism among these drones who still think this game as it is now is good and headed in the right direction.

[deenman]

They bring forth 8.3's horrid dailies (note; not WQs), and Corruption system under a different guise.

always amazed at peoples complete oposite feelings about this,half hate wqs and claim dailies were amazing,and the other half hate dailies and prefer wqs,but yeah,persoanly i rly dislike the dailies in 8.3,flying around trying to do the same things others are doing in a tiny zone,trying to click on things only 1 person can lol,well atleast they didnt bring back single person mob tagging