Is Classic too easy?

[hlud]

No, it doesn't. Classic is intended as a reasonably close recreation of vanilla. Not something more. If you don't like it, go to a pserver.

Now... if it was a year after Naxx? I might agree. But expecting Classic to be anything other than a close Vanilla clone at this point is just delusional.

But, it is a false dichotomy. Unless you prove the ability of Blizzard to create a massive, but new, dungeon as an impossibility, then you shouldn't claim so.

[clevin]

But, it is a false dichotomy. Unless you prove the ability of Blizzard to create a massive, but new, dungeon as an impossibility, then you shouldn't claim so.

I didnt say gather COULDNT. I said that it's not their intention for Classic. Also, negatives can't be proven.

[hlud]

No, it doesn't. Classic is intended as a reasonably close recreation of vanilla. Not something more. If you don't like it, go to a pserver.

Now... if it was a year after Naxx? I might agree. But expecting Classic to be anything other than a close Vanilla clone at this point is just delusional.

And, i should respond to the oft-used 'leave Classic' remarks. While i personally have decided to just not play it, people are leaving Classic left and right. If you want massive, new dungeons, then don't play Classic. If you want vanilla WoW, then don't play Classic. If you want challenges, don't play Classic. People are agreeing with you, and it has now, what, 10% of it's population in September?

[arkanon]

So? Why is difficulty held up as a good thing?

I didn't say it was. You need to read some of my other posts in this thread. I think it's great that there is an easier alternative for those who find retails raiding too demanding or just too hard.

The question is, why is there a small section of the famous "classic community" that lie and bullshit constantly, doing amazing mental gymnastics trying to "prove" that classic / vanilla was / is hard. That's kinda the theme of this thread.

[Heathy]

In retrospect I was worried about gear scarcity all along but I just kinda hoped that it wouldn’t be too big an issue. So I mean, I wasn’t uniformed, I just chose to be optimistic and ignore the obvious flaws in the game. Ah well.

thats just the way that it is with gear, it comes over time, because you end up running t1 until the end, so you end up farming content wayyyyyyyyyyyyy past the point that ppl need stuff, you'll always run molten core because of the bindings. they make it so that you never leave t1 it never becomes not worth running.

I won't be getting TF first in my guild, second, if the other drops, I've already opted to funnel all the t2 to the other MT, the warrior CL in our guild has both bindings, he will get most of t2 funneled to him, because, its just better that way, then ill gear up second.

everyone is free to play the game the way they want but, sometimes you have to compromise for the whole.

you can't control what drops, some items will drop often, others won't, for us we had maybe 4-5 brutality blades in a row, another guild might have had shields, some items are more sought after than others. dkp just allows you to get items sooner, if you can't attend raids to save dkp to win loot then you won't get far. most guilds i'd imagine do dkp as is customary for the time. there are players who save dkp and bid all of it on key BiS items, other ppl like me who don't really give a fuck about loot and just get it when I get it, if i have too much dkp, or i feel like I do, ill bid on something useful. and ill pass if i've already had loot that raid. its pretty simple really, you don't always get gear, some of the mages in my guild didn't get a single epic item for maybe 10 or more raids. either they didn't want any t1, the items they did want didn't drop, or the dungeon bis blue gear was better than the epic gear.

classic was the worst point for gearing up at any significant pace, tbc was better at getting ppl into a raid ready gear level with heroics and karazhan being a 10 man entry raid. the only way you're going to gear up fast in classic is by waiting for ZG and AQ20. you're still gunna have to show up and clear the raid to actually get the loot, not just go on follow and expect to get loot just because you showed up that day. its going to be a long while until phase 6 and it hasn't even been said yet if this is going to progress to tbc or not, if it does, ok, but if it doesn't, then you have forever to get loot. for, ever, at least until the server gets shut off anyway. or until you guild burns out and stops raiding.

if you plan on seeing the game through till the end, it doesn't really matter how fast you get gear. because ultimately you won't finish it until the end. if you don't plan on playing till the end, why does it matter how fast you gear up, so long as the raid as a whole is absorbing new loot each week, the raid, as a whole is getting stronger, it really is just a matter of time before everyone gets the items they want or something better. eventually you'll have it all on farm an it really is a matter of counting the lockouts until its your turn.

[hlud]

So? Why is difficulty held up as a good thing?

Generally, games are enjoyed for their thoughtful decision making. A good story needs not thoughtful decision making, but, alas, i do not 'play' a story.

[clevin]

Generally, games are enjoyed for their thoughtful decision making. A good story needs not thoughtful decision making, but, alas, i do not 'play' a story.

Well... an RPG probably isn't a good match for someone who doesn't play the story.

And, Classic is what it is. Not what you or I wish it might be, but what Blizzard intends it to be.

[barackohmama]

Has wow ever been hard though? I mean the hardest raid they can come up with still only lasts a week.

[Barzotti]

Has wow ever been hard though? I mean the hardest raid they can come up with still only lasts a week.

It only lasts a week because Limit/Method have the best raiders in the world, dedicate an insane amount of time preparing (PTR testing, playing 12 hours a day the two weeks before the mythic opening), insane amount of time raiding (14-16 hours a day during the race, it's around 120 hours of raiding in eight days), and spend an insane amount of gold to min/max their character (Limit is 250 million gold in debt, that's 40 thousand dollars in wow tokens). Limit had their RL coaching and managing the raid from the outside, they had someone dedicated to the addons/weakauras. And even with all that preparation, it takes more than 100 hours of progress to the cream of the crop to clear the raid.

And if you look at some recent mythic bosses (KJ, Uunat), yes, it's really hard. Not necessarily incredibly hard mechanically, but in terms of coordination/preparation/strategy/focus during long fights/dps and hps checks.

[Witchblade77]

Normal may be more difficult, but LFR is designed so that you can log in, spend maybe a day getting max level gear, and clear it the first time you walk in.

BWL requires some gear, and some understanding of the mechanics.

If you have the gear and understand the mechanics, then sure it’s really easy, but gear acquisition was the source of difficulty in classic. LFR has nothing.

LFR has mechanics that you HAVE to execute or you die. again. and again. and again.

I'm not complaining btw, just saying that you cannot just walk in and win by default the way you are claiming. yes, its faster to be able TO walk in, but in terms of execution? you HAVE to make an effort. something taking longer to farm =/= its harder. it just takes longer. arbitrarily.

[hlud]

Wrong - Vanilla was easy too.

Yes, but people make a comparison between raiders now and raiders of the past. They may say that raiders of the past were just incompetent, compared to raiders of today. I don't believe this is a valid comparison.

It takes a day's flight to travel across the globe today. I wouldn't say that people of two thousand years ago were incompetent because they couldn't do it in the same amount of time, or at all for that matter. Asking anyone to accomplish the same feat, but with the technology of two thousand years ago, would prove our equal competencies.

I guess when i was playing on a 1.12.1 private server, i was asking for that similar recreation. I wanted to simulate the average raider of vanilla, a time i missed completely. But, it's incompatible with the very philosophy of 1.12.1 and #nochanges.

And i feel like many are in the same boat as i am.

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Well... an RPG probably isn't a good match for someone who doesn't play the story.

But, i think you are misunderstanding the very concept of a game. A game is one where one makes thoughtful decisions. Hence, why the prisoner's dilemma is apart of the well-studied Game Theory.

Personally, this is what i like about vanilla's so-called 'spirit'. It gave you a chance to make decisions, with less clear distinctions between right ones and wrong ones. The mindset of retail is quite the opposite. There are right decisions and wrong decisions, and it's generally very obvious which ones are which.

Look at PvE content. My experience with retail, mind you mostly in BC, LK, and CC, a PvE encounter basically tells you how to beat it. The checks are not in designing a strategy to beat it, but in applying that strategy within a narrow gap. It's less chess, more surgery. I think vanilla, at least at the very start, was the opposite. Less surgery, more chess.

[arkanon]

Yes, but people make a comparison between raiders now and raiders of the past. They may say that raiders of the past were just incompetent, compared to raiders of today. I don't believe this is a valid comparison.

It takes a day's flight to travel across the globe today. I wouldn't say that people of two thousand years ago were incompetent because they couldn't do it in the same amount of time, or at all for that matter. Asking anyone to accomplish the same feat, but with the technology of two thousand years ago, would prove our equal competencies.

I guess when i was playing on a 1.12.1 private server, i was asking for that similar recreation. I wanted to simulate the average raider of vanilla, a time i missed completely. But, it's incompatible with the very philosophy of 1.12.1 and #nochanges.

And i feel like many are in the same boat as i am.

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But, i think you are misunderstanding the very concept of a game. A game is one where one makes thoughtful decisions. Hence, why the prisoner's dilemma is apart of the well-studied Game Theory.

Personally, this is what i like about vanilla's so-called 'spirit'. It gave you a chance to make decisions, with less clear distinctions between right ones and wrong ones. The mindset of retail is quite the opposite. There are right decisions and wrong decisions, and it's generally very obvious which ones are which.

Look at PvE content. My experience with retail, mind you mostly in BC, LK, and CC, a PvE encounter basically tells you how to beat it. The checks are not in designing a strategy to beat it, but in applying that strategy within a narrow gap. It's less chess, more surgery. I think vanilla, at least at the very start, was the opposite. Less surgery, more chess.

What an absolute load of garbage - seriously, nothing you said makes ANY sense, its just word salad with zero logic, meaning, or thought behind it.

Honestly i am stunned you would take the time to type out such an absolute abomination of a post - nothing you said is correct - none of it. Please tell me ONE example in vanilla where you got to make a decision - go for it - ill wait. And just remember, ignorance is not the same as choice.

Just a hot mess of a post with zero logic.

[hlud]

What an absolute load of garbage - seriously, nothing you said makes ANY sense, its just word salad with zero logic, meaning, or thought behind it.

Honestly i am stunned you would take the time to type out such an absolute abomination of a post - nothing you said is correct - none of it. Please tell me ONE example in vanilla where you got to make a decision - go for it - ill wait. And just remember, ignorance is not the same as choice.

Just a hot mess of a post with zero logic.

Playing Horde or Alliance was definitely a big choice. One had shaman, the other paladins. Alliance definitely were seen as having an edge in raiding, but of course, Horde ended up on top.

[arkanon]

Playing Horde or Alliance was definitely a big choice. One had shaman, the other paladins. Alliance definitely were seen as having an edge in raiding, but of course, Horde ended up on top.

So, as you just proved yourself, the "decision" made no difference in the end. The only "decision" was "do i want to play a shaman, or a pally" and that decision still exists today.

[Depakote]

Vanilla is not easy. It's just that we've gotten too good. That being said if you really want to do some challenging content go for those dungeon sets. They're some of the best contest Vanilla has to offer.

[hlud]

So, as you just proved yourself, the "decision" made no difference in the end. The only "decision" was "do i want to play a shaman, or a pally" and that decision still exists today.

I don't agree. First off, if you look at the world race, for the past few years, it is 90%+ dominated by Horde guilds. This is an illusion of choice. Second, raid comps are largely normalized on retail compared to what it was in vanilla, especially at the start. Third, strategies are largely the same for each encounter. When my friend was describing his strategy for Anub'Rekhan, he said his guild kept him in the center of the room, while the other members stood on the edges. Weird, but i am sure you could find these kind of radical differences much more common in vanilla than in any xpac.

Of course, Classic suffers from this non-choice, too. But, i think this is a failure of the #nochanges and last patch philosophy.

[hlud]

So, as you just proved yourself, the "decision" made no difference in the end. The only "decision" was "do i want to play a shaman, or a pally" and that decision still exists today.

I don't agree. First off, if you look at the world race, for the past few years, it is 90%+ dominated by Horde guilds. This is an illusion of choice. Second, raid comps are largely normalized on retail compared to what it was in vanilla, especially at the start. Third, strategies are largely the same for each encounter. When my friend was describing his strategy for Anub'Rekhan, he said his guild kept him in the center of the room, while the other members stood on the edges. Weird, but i am sure you could find these kind of radical differences much more common in vanilla than in any xpac.

Of course, Classic suffers from this non-choice, too. But, i think this is a failure of the #nochanges and last patch philosophy.

[Millyraynge]

So? Why is difficulty held up as a good thing?

some sort of resistance is always key. to keep players attracted it requires an individual degree of work/reward balance. the lower the perceived resistance of the required work, the lower the perceived value of the reward.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Yes, and they should have changed this, but people would have had a fit, so you got what you asked for.
Hope people are happy, one way or another.
I know I am.

[arkanon]

I don't agree. First off, if you look at the world race, for the past few years, it is 90%+ dominated by Horde guilds. This is an illusion of choice. Second, raid comps are largely normalized on retail compared to what it was in vanilla, especially at the start. Third, strategies are largely the same for each encounter. When my friend was describing his strategy for Anub'Rekhan, he said his guild kept him in the center of the room, while the other members stood on the edges. Weird, but i am sure you could find these kind of radical differences much more common in vanilla than in any xpac.

Of course, Classic suffers from this non-choice, too. But, i think this is a failure of the #nochanges and last patch philosophy.

You realize even even the world first race guilds try radically different strats right? You brought it up, so i assumed you would have been aware of the HUGE differences guilds used to down the bosses. You are aware of these, right?

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Vanilla is not easy. It's just that we've gotten too good. That being said if you really want to do some challenging content go for those dungeon sets. They're some of the best contest Vanilla has to offer.

Vanilla was easy. Classic is easy.