How does the twisting nether transcending all realities work with time travel?

[huth]

They really fudged some things up with this only one version of the demons.

Only if by "they" you mean the community, because Blizzard never claimed that.

I mean, it's confirmed on more than one occasion that there's only 1 Legion, and that the Legion transcends realities. I would assume that once you become a demon, all other versions of you are written out of existence until death. I mean, why do you think we fought our Archimonde in WoD? And not some AU counterpart?

One Legion. Not one of every demon. You're getting different things mixed up there.

And given Blizzard's decision during WoD's development to change WoD from an alternate timeline to an alternate universe and their explanation for it, alternate universes and alternate timelines are not one and the same.

Any actual evidence for that? Because as far as i can tell, that only happened in your head.

[Aucald]

i don't know if we can say this for sure. socrethar is killed in netherstorm, which seems to be in the nether. it may be safe to assume he was permanently slain. gorefiend in the MU didn't become a demon, he was just put into the corpse of a dead human knight, meaning his death was just a normal mortal death.

Socrethar in Netherstorm *was* a demon, though, and AU Socrethar in WoD also becomes a demon you can fight in the Shattrath quests in Talador - there's no evidence that AU Socrethar gains any of MU Socrethar's prior knowledge, or that they merge in any sense. Not really sure what AU Gorefiend is to be honest, you're right on that score - he's classified as a demon in-game, but that doesn't really translate to lore in any real sense. MU Gorefiend would just be undead, I suppose; and AU Gorefiend some kind of unknown abomination of a thing.

as for the the nether connecting to AU's, i think it's a given that it is connected to the AU's. kil'jaeden contacted AU gul'dan long before the portal opened, perhaps before garrosh even got to AU outland. the nether's transcendent nature means that it should be directly adjacent to any new universes, just as it is to all other existing planes.

I think it's more likely that AU Gul'dan simply has the memory of that contact, as befits him being a distorted echo of the original and primary timeline - he didn't actually contact or engage with any demons until Kairoz's shenanigans provided access of some kind to AU Draenor. It's at that point that agents of Archimonde pour into AU Draenor to enact the Legion's plan to take advantage of Gul'dan's re-emergence (Mannoroth, Azzikel, etc. etc.) - AU Gul'dan's first *true* contact with Kil'jaeden would've been after Archimonde teleported him to MU Azeroth as his last act before dying, sending him to the Tomb of Sargeras to enact the Legion's next step in invading Azeroth once more.

All of of the AU entities would have memories spanning their lifetimes well before the timeline was realized by Kairoz and the Vision of Time, but none of those rightly happened in reality until the point that AU Draenor became quantifiably real.

[Mehrunes]

Any actual evidence for that? Because as far as i can tell, that only happened in your head.

Have you missed the WoD Blizzcon reveal about a strictly time travel story which was changed to an alternate universe with the whole bit about "don't count the blades of grass" from the devs only during the beta after people starter pointing out the discrepancies prior to the previously intended point of divergence of Garrosh going back on time? Oh, well, not the first time when "as far as you could tell" doesn't amount to much. Won't be the last either, I reckon.

Also, on regards to your reply to @Kithelle and @HighlordJohnstone, you do realize that if you were correct then the Legion would have multiple Archimondes and KJs, right? Meaning that our defeat of Archimonde in WoD and of KJ on Legion would be utterly meaningless? Yet no one, including the people aware of how Legion's crusade is spanning all reality like Illidan treat it as such? Just the opposite in fact. K J's demise was a major stepping stone in Illidan's plans.

[Kithelle]

With the changes brought about by "Chronicle Vol. 3" I'd say it's likely that most of the AU timelines don't have demons to speak of, except in some rare cases like in WoD or other cases where tampering occurs. Demons are native to the Twisting Nether, which is now only truly adjacent to the primary timeline's physical universe. All the other timelines pop in and out of existence randomly, separate from all else; there's little need for the Legion to exploit them and the monumental difficulty of access makes it even more unlikely. AU Draenor is special in that it was both stabilized by Kairoz and had a massive turnpike leading into it in the form of the redirected Dark Portal - giving the Legion both access, and valuable assets to recruit once more (namely AU Gul'dan).

As for AU demons that do manage to come into existence, I'd say it is likely they remain discrete and separate from their MU selves - just like Socrethar and Teron Gorefiend's MU and AU selves are obviously separate. In the case of WoD and AU Draenor it could be possible for AU demons to make it back to the Nether on death, via the Dark Portal's connection to the Azeroth and thus the MU universe, and then on the Nether from there. But for the other AU timelines it's likely that the few demons that exist in those timelines just blink into non-existence on death, or their souls remain bound to the physical universe and unable to regenerate their demonic forms for the remainder of the AU timeline's brief existence.

The only problem is then what did the AU Draenei run from? They obviously left Argus for some reason....and we will probably never know since the AU Draenei went super zealot and all and the odds of use ever going back there are probably almost none. So it was kinda easy for the devs to ignore it and brush it off...but the question still exists.

[Kathranis]

I don't actually recall where they ultimately fell on all this beyond "don't think about it" and "it's not actually that important," but I do want to remind folks of one thing:

That stuff with the Legion and/or demons transcending all realities was never really committed to the lore or expressed in official media, only in a tweet that doesn't even exist now, which was only a sort of non-answer regarding whether or not the Archimonde appearing at the end of WoD is technically the same Archimonde that was killed at Mt. Hyjal.

From what has been depicted in the games and books themselves, it's more like demons perceive reality from a higher dimension than mortals because they are inextricably bound to the Twisting Nether. We get a glimpse of this in Illidan when Vandel eats that demon's heart to bind its soul with his own, and then sees the Legion conquering infinite realities, and he ultimately claws out his own eyes to prevent the visions from driving him insane.

So while the demons perceive reality differently, that doesn't necessarily mean that they and their alternate selves share a single consciousness or motives, or even that their souls are one and the same.


At any rate, it's not really worth thinking about. Blizzard isn't relying on these concepts to tell their stories, and even when they do show up, they're either depicted as something beyond mortal comprehension or glossed over entirely.

[derpkitteh]

Socrethar in Netherstorm *was* a demon, though, and AU Socrethar in WoD also becomes a demon you can fight in the Shattrath quests in Talador - there's no evidence that AU Socrethar gains any of MU Socrethar's prior knowledge, or that they merge in any sense. Not really sure what AU Gorefiend is to be honest, you're right on that score - he's classified as a demon in-game, but that doesn't really translate to lore in any real sense. MU Gorefiend would just be undead, I suppose; and AU Gorefiend some kind of unknown abomination of a thing.



I think it's more likely that AU Gul'dan simply has the memory of that contact, as befits him being a distorted echo of the original and primary timeline - he didn't actually contact or engage with any demons until Kairoz's shenanigans provided access of some kind to AU Draenor. It's at that point that agents of Archimonde pour into AU Draenor to enact the Legion's plan to take advantage of Gul'dan's re-emergence (Mannoroth, Azzikel, etc. etc.) - AU Gul'dan's first *true* contact with Kil'jaeden would've been after Archimonde teleported him to MU Azeroth as his last act before dying, sending him to the Tomb of Sargeras to enact the Legion's next step in invading Azeroth once more.

All of of the AU entities would have memories spanning their lifetimes well before the timeline was realized by Kairoz and the Vision of Time, but none of those rightly happened in reality until the point that AU Draenor became quantifiably real.

yes, but the socrethar of netherstorm was killed. his prior knowledge would be destroyed with him, as netherstorm is likely in the nether, so he would have been destroyed permanently.

it is possible that AU gul'dan's memories are not actually real, but they are different from the origins of MU gul'dan. i think it's possible that this AU existed prior to kairoz bringing garrosh back, and KJ was using it to sate his need to murder velen and the draenei before kairoz got there. i'd say that kairoz merely looked for an AU to go to that suited garrosh's needs, rather than creating one.

[Aucald]

The only problem is then what did the AU Draenei run from? They obviously left Argus for some reason....and we will probably never know since the AU Draenei went super zealot and all and the odds of use ever going back there are probably almost none. So it was kinda easy for the devs to ignore it and brush it off...but the question still exists.

They would have the same memories of running from their Eredar peers and Sargeras, even though relative to that timeline neither the Eredar nor Sargeras actually existed to do so. You can think of the AU timeline like a movie, of sorts - 2-dimensional and patently unreal, right up until Kairoz uses the Vision of Time to make it 3-D and real, right at the timestamp in which he and Garrosh popped into the timeline (a few years before the original creation of the Horde by Ner'zhul). Up until that point they didn't truly exist, but they still remember the movie that were actors in beforehand.

Of course the specific events of their flight from Argus might be different, too; since a little of little details about AU Draenor were also different ("blades of grass," as Kairoz sardonically put it) - but none of it was *real* in the sense that things in the MU timeline are real and impactful, not until an outside force made it real.

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yes, but the socrethar of netherstorm was killed. his prior knowledge would be destroyed with him, as netherstorm is likely in the nether, so he would have been destroyed permanently.

it is possible that AU gul'dan's memories are not actually real, but they are different from the origins of MU gul'dan. i think it's possible that this AU existed prior to kairoz bringing garrosh back, and KJ was using it to sate his need to murder velen and the draenei before kairoz got there. i'd say that kairoz merely looked for an AU to go to that suited garrosh's needs, rather than creating one.

The Socrethar of Netherstorm wouldn't be dead at the time the Socrethar of AU Draenor was made a demon, though; assuming again that the Nether is transcendent and parallel in terms of temporal continuity - it's a pretty significant and probably unresolveable paradox if you retain the broken lore of WoD. I like the model I used in Kithelle's reply above - Gul'dan remembers the non-real "movie" his life before Kairoz's interference, and it may well have been slightly different from MU Gul'dan's history (hence him being a distorted echo). I agree that Kairoz did indeed "find" AU Draenor as opposed to creating it whole-cloth or some such. Specially, he needed a version of Draenor where Garrosh wasn't born to Grom's mate, thus giving the adult Garrosh an effective "in" with his AU father.

[derpkitteh]

The Socrethar of Netherstorm wouldn't be dead at the time the Socrethar of AU Draenor was made a demon, though; assuming again that the Nether is transcendent and parallel in terms of temporal continuity - it's a pretty significant and probably unresolveable paradox if you retain the broken lore of WoD. I like the model I used in Kithelle's reply above - Gul'dan remembers the non-real "movie" his life before Kairoz's interference, and it may well have been slightly different from MU Gul'dan's history (hence him being a distorted echo). I agree that Kairoz did indeed "find" AU Draenor as opposed to creating it whole-cloth or some such. Specially, he needed a version of Draenor where Garrosh wasn't born to Grom's mate, thus giving the adult Garrosh an effective "in" with his AU father.

due to the nether being transcendent and demons(seemingly) being transcendent as well, "when" wouldn't really be an issue. the socrethar of now is dead when we go back to AU draenor. MU othaar is long gone, turned to socrethar probably at a similar point in the actual past. so his current death doesn't effect or change his alternate existence, or his transformation. it's upon his transformation that things get squirrely. it probably solidifies him as real and the demon socrethar exists again, born newly and with no connection to the original. i don't think the entity of socrethar is its own being, it's still the mortal sentience of othaar chosing the name socrethar for himself and working from his fel-corrupt personality. so it's not really a case of him ceasing to exist and the demon existing, he is the demon.

i mean, it is of course likely that other memories didn't actually happen, but i think gul'dan's could have. we have no idea how long it takes for AU's to fade, what's considered a short amount of time for them to fade could be hundreds or thousands of years, we just know they are seen as fleeting to immortal dragons.

ultimately, it's all speculation and guesswork really. fun to think about, but there's no true answer yet. speaking of demon souls, the nether, and its nature, this reminds me that i still really fucking hope they address the demon hunter's demonic spirit being connected to the nether in shadowlands, rather than to the shadowlands.

[Nathreim]

Since the titans are busy guarding Sargeras, that means that the titans never go to Azeroth and create the titanforged to stop the old gods which should in practice mean that every single reality besides our own, Azeroth is destroyed by the hour of twilight?

The sundering never happens since Sargeras never gets to contact Azshara so that means if the old gods are somehow defeated the kaldorei empire rules forever??

First time does not exist in the Nether. Its a alternate dimension that has vastly different laws of reality to ours. This is how you can breath on Outland even though it wouldn't have an atmosphere.

Second how does the titans going to the nether AFTER they ordered Azeroth change anything? All these things have already happened long ago going to the nether now would not retroactively change anything.

Finally the Titans are not even in the twisting nether. The Seat of the Pantheon is a Titan facility in space. Its where they used to meet before Sargeras betrayed and destroyed their bodies.

As Doc Brown would say "your not thinking fourth dimensionally".

[Mehrunes]

The only problem is then what did the AU Draenei run from? They obviously left Argus for some reason....and we will probably never know since the AU Draenei went super zealot and all and the odds of use ever going back there are probably almost none. So it was kinda easy for the devs to ignore it and brush it off...but the question still exists.

Not to mention the Sargerei, who are a decision from MU no less, lambast AU Velen for not making the correct choice like the rest of their leaders.

[Schattenlied]

Since the titans are busy guarding Sargeras, that means that the titans never go to Azeroth and create the titanforged to stop the old gods which should in practice mean that every single reality besides our own, Azeroth is destroyed by the hour of twilight?

The sundering never happens since Sargeras never gets to contact Azshara so that means if the old gods are somehow defeated the kaldorei empire rules forever??

The Titans do not transcend all realities, they are not born of the twisting nether, nor do they reside in it... It's a demon thing, Sargeras hijacked it when he created the Burning legion.

Speaking of which, no one is born a demon. You become a demon by consuming fel magic, sort of how like you become a crack baby if your parents do heroine

There are natural demons.

[derpkitteh]

The Titans do not transcend all realities, they are not born of the twisting nether, nor do they reside in it... It's a demon thing, Sargeras hijacked it when he created the Burning legion.



There are natural demons.

i think this guy got confused as to what the guy meant by transcending realities.

because if they try to say there are AU titans, this would be irreconcilable with the "void titan = end of reality" thing, there would be void titans all over the place.

[DemonHunter18]

only nathrezim are natural demons.

both socrethar become 1 in the twisting nether i suppose.

Shivarra's as well most likely.

[derpkitteh]

Shivarra's as well most likely.

not sure, we see griselda the crone(MU)/beautiful(AU) become a shivarra.

we've never seen anyone become a nathrezim.

[DemonHunter18]

not sure, we see griselda the crone(MU)/beautiful(AU) become a shivarra.

we've never seen anyone become a nathrezim.

good point.

Pit Lords are natural as well.

[derpkitteh]

good point.

Pit Lords are natural as well.

yeah, pit lords are natural. used to be smaller and weaker though, until archimonde empowered them.

felhounds(the warlock pet, not fel stalkers) are natural, wyrmtongue(one you capture on the broken shore mentions being spawned from the depths of the nether), mo'arg seem to be, and infernals(basically the elementals of the nether). idk of any other confirmed, aside from nathrezim of course.

[DemonHunter18]

yeah, pit lords are natural. used to be smaller and weaker though, until archimonde empowered them.

felhounds(the warlock pet, not fel stalkers) are natural, wyrmtongue(one you capture on the broken shore mentions being spawned from the depths of the nether), mo'arg seem to be, and infernals(basically the elementals of the nether). idk of any other confirmed, aside from nathrezim of course.

I always liked the idea of Nathrezim being the only OG demons who can't be killed and the ones who corrupted Sargeras.

it made them so much more badass.

alas, demons are punching bags this days.

[Thage]

It doesn't, really, but since when did Afrasiabi care about consistent storytelling over 'Hey this sounds ttly awesum guize'?

[Stormspark]

It doesn't. The "transcend realities" thing was just Blizzard's attempt to cover for bad writing in WOD (they removed 2/3 of the expansion's story, shoved Archimonde in for blatant fanservice, and used that bullshit explanation to cover it). It made no sense even within the context of the bad writing in WOD, and it makes no sense now. Lately Blizzard has been desperately trying to avoid mentioning they ever said that, so I would take it with a grain of salt. Consider it like the warp 10 episode of Star Trek Voyager. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...nDiscontinuity https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VoodooShark

[Piamonte]

Yeah but if it covers all realities how are there not just a dozen copes of Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde? It can't be because our universe is the only one that had them do that...the Draenei in the AU still ran away from Argus...so once their AU versions accepted Sargeras' offer they just merged with our universe's versions?

Assuming Sargeras' offer is accepted in multiple universes wouldn't it need to be accepted at the exact same time not to mess with things? How do demons oversee multiple universes at the exact same time? It's all confusing...

All time travel does typically is end up creating more questions...

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Well it's not the alternate universes that are the problem, it's more that they say only one copy of any given character exists in the twisting nether which is very confusing when they don't tell us what happens...we don't know what happens to these alternate demons from alternate universe...do they somehow merge into one singular being? Do the others just cease to exist?

Since the Demons are virtually out of the picture for the time being we may never know...

i used to have a theory that explains all of this but i think it went something like you said, all versions of a demon become one in the twisting nether, if a mortal becomes a demon, he becomes a demon in every single timeline and the event of him becoming a demon happens aproximatelly at the same time in history in every timeline.