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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    We've had two expansions based on a horde leader standing up to a tyrannical warchief lol
    Only after obediently carrying out their genocidal orders first. Please.. mocked Tyrande got more backbone than Horde pawn leaders combined.

  2. #22
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    I mean the sin'dorei are canonically the least loyal race at this point now since MoP I think, so you're probably right. It's amazing no one in the Horde ever gave a shit they straight up nearly betrayed all of them
    Eh, to be fair, I don't consider the MoP part as part of said mentality. Being in the Horde wasn't an "inconvenience" to them like it was during the early Alliance, it was actually a threat to the elves' survival, what with how Garrosh have been using and abusing of the non-orc races.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  3. #23
    I am Murloc! Oneirophobia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    It's ridiculous he ever supported her, you'd think the Blood Elves of all people would take issue with an evil, maniacal undead force rampaging around destroying cities
    Do the belf heritage quest, it explains why the elves find it difficult to let go of the Sylvanas they knew in life. She was a national hero to them.

    Also, the belves are notoriously bad at empathy. Burning down someone else's city probably raised some eyebrows but at the same time "they're just night elves, is it reaaally that big of a deal?"

  4. #24
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Lor'themar is a member in high standing of the Horde's current leadership structure or council, so I'd say he gave the general police force in Orgrimmar effective permission to round up and incarcerate those Blood Elves who were non-repentant loyalists of the newly ousted regime of Sylvanas. I would say the racial leaders will likely eventually stand in judgment of each of these loyalists - with Lor'themar determining the final punishments for those Blood Elves who continue to support Sylvanas.
    Essentially this. Right now, those blood elves are, for all intents and purposes, considered traitors to the Horde. In their case, they're also considered traitors to Quel'thalas. Keep in mind, every loyalist was given the option to renounce their affiliation with Sylvanas and allowed to remain free, no harm no foul. The ones being imprisoned are the diehards who sided with her even after her speech at Orgrimmar's gates where she publicly denounced the Horde--making it perfectly reasonable for the council to assume these loyalists will pose a threat to the Horde in the future once Sylvanas makes her move. More specifically, it's the diehards who weren't smart enough to play the odds, pretend to renounce her, and bide their time until her return, like some have (loyalist players can find other 'deep cover' loyalists who whisper to you as you run around Orgrimmar).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    I mean the sin'dorei are canonically the least loyal race at this point now since MoP I think, so you're probably right. It's amazing no one in the Horde ever gave a shit they straight up nearly betrayed all of them
    Fair's fair, Lor'themar only started calling foul when Garrosh used his people as cannon fodder and then set the Sunreavers up to take the heat for the Divine Bell incident. Before then he was just fine working with the Horde as allies of convenience (after the Horde treated the blood elves fair and the Alliance sent spies and saboteurs, at a time when the blood elves were teetering on the brink as a society and species).

    It's only when continued affiliation with the Horde became an active threat to his peoples' safety and survival that he began talking with Varian about defecting, and afterwards, when Jaina and Vereesa scuttled those talks due to the Purge, he immediately began stockpiling the most powerful weapon he could get his hands on (anima golems and tech) in order to get Garrosh off his back. He even briefly considered a bid for Warchief but nothing really came of it.

    I don't think it's common knowledge Lor'themar was in talks with Varian about defecting to the Alliance. Even if it were, most of the Horde would have no room to talk considering everyone but Garrosh's most diehard loyalists were looking for ways to get out without having Garrosh rally the rest of the Horde against them (culminating in everyone saying 'Fuck it, revolution' when Vol'jin comes back). Remember that when Varian revealed this, only a handful of people were in the room and none of them were rank and file grunts prone to gossip.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  5. #25
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    Essentially this. Right now, those blood elves are, for all intents and purposes, considered traitors to the Horde. In their case, they're also considered traitors to Quel'thalas. Keep in mind, every loyalist was given the option to renounce their affiliation with Sylvanas and allowed to remain free, no harm no foul. The ones being imprisoned are the diehards who sided with her even after her speech at Orgrimmar's gates where she publicly denounced the Horde--making it perfectly reasonable for the council to assume these loyalists will pose a threat to the Horde in the future once Sylvanas makes her move. More specifically, it's the diehards who weren't smart enough to play the odds, pretend to renounce her, and bide their time until her return, like some have (loyalist players can find other 'deep cover' loyalists who whisper to you as you run around Orgrimmar).
    This is the probably the basis of the oft-maligned "crossroads" cliche that seems to be a plot point of the upcoming "Shadows Rising" novel, as well. Subversive elements in the Horde, still loyal to Sylvanas and her cause (whatever it proves to ultimately be) causing problems for the Horde's new leadership at a pivotal moment when the Horde is transitioning between leadership models. Seems to be causing all kinds of issues with their cohesion, likely be design.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  6. #26
    If he's doesen't then he shouldn't be leader. Our ranks are too thin already then to allow prisoners who got tricked executed. If he even fails at that, I hope kael'thas makes his great return. As original blood elf character of the story, is fans deserve to get him back.

  7. #27
    I think as you often see on those conversations, loyalists that are not captive, saying "she betrayed us all", even the loyalists that stayed with Sylvanas for the most part, they were just following orders as everyone else was, just doing a bit sneaky on the side with Saurfang. They shouldn't be punished because of something like that, it's a big decision to make, and when Sylvanas was a warchief, is normal to have people following her. And people didn't know the consequences that would migh bring in the future, and after the saurfang's death as well.

    I hated this storyline, honestly. Faction war, Sylvanas vs. Saurfang, abandoning horde for real and killing saurfang. I just think there could have been done so much more about every character, even tho, i think Saurfang had a death wish and he got it on a fight, not too honorable one tbh, but at least he did what he wanted, free people from Sylvanas.

    I wished we had just Old god only theme expansion, without this side faction war and warchief war as it's so normal for horde already having warchiefs like this. Nothing new to see here, and basically feels a waste of a character.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmAddict View Post
    I saw orcs leading Sylvanas loyalists in chains in Orgrimmar, and I noticed some of them were blood elf. It seemed ... out of place. I had a sense that if anyone should be handling Belf dissidents or Sylvanas loyalists, it should be the blood elves. Lor'themar should be insisting they take their own and punish them according to their own customs.

    Let's also bear in mind that Lor'themar himself switched loyalties near the end, and supposedly more and more were joining the rebels.. who's to say some of those on the other side of Orgrimmar, would not have joined later?

    Also do we know what qualifies as a Sylvanas loyalist exactly? I assume not everyone who was on her side of the wall at the confrontation with Saurfang outside Orgrimmar is being punished.
    No, because the Horde is one large body of individual groupings. If someone transgresses against the Horde then the punishment falls to the Horde. If they transgress against their own grouping then their own grouping deals with the punishment.

    The Horde is already a fascistic unity, a two-tiered justice system only compounds the matter. Having a council is the first move away from the fascistic rule that Thrall instated unwittingly when he created the position of Warchief in the model of the old Horde.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmAddict View Post
    I saw orcs leading Sylvanas loyalists in chains in Orgrimmar, and I noticed some of them were blood elf. It seemed ... out of place. I had a sense that if anyone should be handling Belf dissidents or Sylvanas loyalists, it should be the blood elves. Lor'themar should be insisting they take their own and punish them according to their own customs.

    Let's also bear in mind that Lor'themar himself switched loyalties near the end, and supposedly more and more were joining the rebels.. who's to say some of those on the other side of Orgrimmar, would not have joined later?

    Also do we know what qualifies as a Sylvanas loyalist exactly? I assume not everyone who was on her side of the wall at the confrontation with Saurfang outside Orgrimmar is being punished.
    blood elves are loyal to quelthalas! blood elves army march in orgrimmar


  10. #30
    Imagine getting punished for supporting your rightful ruler. Satire juicer than life.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpcat View Post
    A Horde leader standing up for anything? Please...

    Their role is to agree with the Warchief, not standing up for things.
    Unless you don't count Baine, Saurfang, Thrall and Lor'themar standing up for the Alliance, or rather, for Anduin.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    I mean, the parallels between her and Arthas were pretty clear

    Unless genocide is a good thing somehow
    The funny thing though is that arthas was right and they all started turning. Why was he the bad guy there? I never got that.

  13. #33
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    But she wasn't originally written like that. Player negativity made Blizz change story, so she burned down Teldrassil? No "Old Gods did it" or "hidden azerite veins"? It makes no sense. Also, during beta, her order to sack Brennadam was something like "kill all, all will serve", only to be changed after the negative reaction for something having strategic explanation. So that contradicts your theory.
    There was a rumor that in cata instead of garrosh it would have shown the start of sylvanas' downfall, I do not know how true that rumor is though.
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    There was a rumor that in cata instead of garrosh it would have shown the start of sylvanas' downfall, I do not know how true that rumor is though.
    It holds no waters. That's the vision Alex might have had. But Metzen and Kosak were always determined to get rid of Garrosh.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    Unless you don't count Baine, Saurfang, Thrall and Lor'themar standing up for the Alliance, or rather, for Anduin.
    And that's the tea for today.

  15. #35
    I am Murloc! Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    There was a rumor that in cata instead of garrosh it would have shown the start of sylvanas' downfall, I do not know how true that rumor is though.
    Pretty sure there was a drawing saying "we finally confront the Horde leader that's been evil and doing shit behind us" pointing at sylvanas only to reveal Garrosh at the end
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  16. #36
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Pretty sure there was a drawing saying "we finally confront the Horde leader that's been evil and doing shit behind us" pointing at sylvanas only to reveal Garrosh at the end
    Oh shit what? That's crazy, I always thought it was a tin foil thing
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  17. #37
    I am Murloc! Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    Oh shit what? That's crazy, I always thought it was a tin foil thing
    Oh, no. Nothing official. It was just an internet forum thingie
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormwolf64 View Post
    The funny thing though is that arthas was right and they all started turning. Why was he the bad guy there? I never got that.
    I think (my opinion only not sure if it's canon) it was more to show his descent. Which was later mirrored by his quote at frostmourne that he'll pay any price to save his people with the whole "the way to hell is paved with good intentions".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Oh, no. Nothing official. It was just an internet forum thingie
    Ahhhh had me going there for a bit lol
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmAddict View Post
    Do you think probably becuase originally Sylvanas was written to be right about all her actions, the overwhelming player negativity altered the storyline
    Except she absolutely wasn't.

  20. #40
    He should but instead of that he sends Liadrin to help arresting them.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

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