Reasoning for it?

[Minikin]

That will happen once Theron stops calling himself Horde.

Also, uhm, that would actually make Valeera MORE special. She'd basically be the only green-eyed Alliance-affiliated High elf in the cosmos. Granted, she wouldn't be nearly as special as Alleria (the only Void elf who can switch back to her High elf form), but still it would be considerable.



The funny thing is the hypocrisy of these people, who all happen to be Sylvanas fanboys or Saurfang haters in some way. In one thread they might be saying things like "Theron and Baine are such treacherous pieces of shit, Sylvanas should kill them", while in the other they'll say stuff like "I want Theron to impale Alleria and all the other traitors on the spires of Sunfury for all to see".

Dunno if iam misunderstanding your post but I was being sarcastic I am not part of that compendium of sylvanas fans or saurfang haters. As for the whole treachery thing. tRAiToR has become the new call sign of some posters..... fiercely gaining competitive popularity as the phrase "stuck at YET another crossroads"

[Varodoc]

Sorry to burst your bubble but every single blood elf that currently exist is a descendant of exiled highbornes from kalimdor who founded the Quel'thalas kingdom lead by the Sunstrider Dynasty. It is currently ruled by the King Regent Lor'themar Theron.

Any high/blood elf who is not obeying him and in valeera's case actively working against him is a traitor. You don't have the right to break off and decide you are independent now in the bounds of such a monarchy.

The fact that these traitors are not being persecuted doesn't make them not traitors.

Sorry to burst your bubble but "King Regent" is a fancanon title.

Besides, following your logic, every single blood elf who currently exists is also a descendant of the Dark Trolls.... so does this mean Theron should serve Queen Talanji or whoever leads the Dark Trolls?

Also, you do realize Dath'remar Sunstrider was exactly that, right? He was someone who disagreed with the new ruling government of the Kaldorei and thus was exiled. He is no different from Alleria, Vereesa, or Magister Umbric. He even caused a disaster like Alleria, the only difference being that what Alleria caused was confined to one room, whereas Dath'remar unleashed a terrible arcane storm on an entire forest. So does this mean that Quel'thalas is founded on treachery? You said it!

Agreed with the last point. Theron and the blood elves in general are traitors, and the fact that they got away with betraying two different warchiefs doesn't change that.

Dunno if iam misunderstanding your post but I was being sarcastic I am not part of that compendium of sylvanas fans or saurfang haters. As for the whole treachery thing. tRAiToR has become the new call sign of some posters..... fiercely gaining competitive popularity as the phrase "stuck at YET another crossroads"

I wasn't referring to you don't worry, I had Soon and other people like him in mind, people who hate "traitors" (so the usual Baine, Saurfang, Thrall, Vol'jin, yada yada yada) yet at the same time praise said traitors if it's convenient.

Lol I'm sorry I couldn't help it. After a few pages of world war 2 comparisons and Merriam Webster I just decided it's better to just have some fun. Not to mention the part where the one poster claimed deathwing caused Southshore to be plagued lol forgot about that.

And this is nothing, wait until you see those Sylvanas fanboys who blame Terenas for the Burning of Teldrassil. Ah, if only he hadn't raised Arthas as a prick!

[Ardenaso]

Sorry to burst your bubble but every single blood elf that currently exist is a descendant of exiled highbornes from kalimdor who founded the Quel'thalas kingdom led by the Sunstrider Dynasty. It is currently ruled by the King Regent Lor'themar Theron.

Any high/blood elf who is not obeying him and in valeera's case actively working against him is a traitor. You don't have the right to break off and decide you are independent now in the bounds of such a monarchy.

The fact that these traitors are not being persecuted doesn't make them not traitors.

To be fair when Lor'themar banished the High Elves and the soon-to-be Void Elves that's pretty much the "right" to break off already. Doesn't apply to Valeera though

[Minikin]

Sorry to burst your bubble but "King Regent" is a fancanon title.

Besides, following your logic, every single blood elf who currently exists is also a descendant of the Dark Trolls.... so does this mean Theron should serve Queen Talanji or whoever leads the Dark Trolls?

Also, you do realize Dath'remar Sunstrider was exactly that, right? He was someone who disagreed with the new ruling government of the Kaldorei and thus was exiled. He is no different from Alleria, Vereesa, or Magister Umbric. So does this mean that Quel'thalas is founded on treachery? You said it!

Agreed with the last point. Theron and the blood elves in general are traitors, and the fact that they got away with betraying two different warchiefs doesn't change that.



I wasn't referring to you though, I had Soon and other people like him in mind, people who hate "traitors" yet at the same time praise traitors.

Oh my bad then it's been a sleepless night!

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry to burst your bubble but "King Regent" is a fancanon title.

Besides, following your logic, every single blood elf who currently exists is also a descendant of the Dark Trolls.... so does this mean Theron should serve Queen Talanji or whoever leads the Dark Trolls?

Also, you do realize Dath'remar Sunstrider was exactly that, right? He was someone who disagreed with the new ruling government of the Kaldorei and thus was exiled. He is no different from Alleria, Vereesa, or Magister Umbric. So does this mean that Quel'thalas is founded on treachery? You said it!

Agreed with the last point. Theron and the blood elves in general are traitors, and the fact that they got away with betraying two different warchiefs doesn't change that.



I wasn't referring to you don't worry, I had Soon and other people like him in mind, people who hate "traitors" (so the usual Baine, Saurfang, Thrall, Vol'jin, yada yada yada) yet at the same time praise said traitors if it's convenient.



And this is nothing, wait until you see those Sylvanas fanboys who blame Terenas for the Burning of Teldrassil. Ah, if only he hadn't raised Arthas as a prick!

Damn Regent Lord Arthas! What a rascal!

[faithbane]

Sorry to burst your bubble but "King Regent" is a fancanon title.

Besides, following your logic, every single blood elf who currently exists is also a descendant of the Dark Trolls.... so does this mean Theron should serve Queen Talanji or whoever leads the Dark Trolls?

Also, you do realize Dath'remar Sunstrider was exactly that, right? He was someone who disagreed with the new ruling government of the Kaldorei and thus was exiled. He is no different from Alleria, Vereesa, or Magister Umbric. So does this mean that Quel'thalas is founded on treachery? You said it!

Fancanon? Ironic coming from you, the fact that under his head it sais "king Regent" makes it pretty canon Also if you open like any history book in the world, you might come across the titles such as "King/prince Regent" since that is an actual fucking title used in medieval history.

HAHAHAHAHA "Besides, following your logic, every single blood elf who currently exists is also a descendant of the Dark Trolls.... so does this mean Theron should serve Queen Talanji or whoever leads the Dark Trolls?" Please look up "reductio ad absurdum fallacy" then grow up and come back with a real argument.

Yes, Sunstriders were banished and founded their own kingdom in a distant land and everyone in that kingdom is his subject including Valeera and he is free to do whatever he wants with him. That is how absolute monarchy works. Unlike the void elves and some of the high elves, valeera was never banished therefor still bound to the Kingdom of Quelthalas.

[Varodoc]

Fancanon? Ironic coming from you, the fact that under his head it sais "king Regent" makes it pretty canon Also if you open like any history book in the world, you might come across the titles such as "King/prince Regent" since that is an actual fucking title used in medieval history.

HAHAHAHAHA "Besides, following your logic, every single blood elf who currently exists is also a descendant of the Dark Trolls.... so does this mean Theron should serve Queen Talanji or whoever leads the Dark Trolls?" Please look up "reductio ad absurdum fallacy" then grow up and come back with a real argument.

Yes, Sunstriders were banished and founded their own kingdom in a distant land and everyone in that kingdom is his subject including Valeera and he is free to do whatever he wants with him. That is how absolute monarchy works. Unlike the void elves and some of the high elves, valeera was never banished therefor still bound to the Kingdom of Quelthalas.

What are you talking about? It doesn't say "King Regent", it says "Regent Lord".

HAHAHAHAHA "Besides, following your logic, every single blood elf who currently exists is also a descendant of the Dark Trolls.... so does this mean Theron should serve Queen Talanji or whoever leads the Dark Trolls?" Please look up "reductio ad absurdum fallacy" then grow up and come back with a real argument.

Not really. I am applying your logic completely. But if you apply something absurd, the result will be equally absurd.

Yes, Sunstriders were banished and founded their own kingdom in a distant land and everyone in that kingdom is his subject including Valeera and he is free to do whatever he wants with him. That is how absolute monarchy works. Unlike the void elves and some of the high elves, valeera was never banished therefor still bound to the Kingdom of Quelthalas.

Quel'thalas was not an absolute monarchy though. The Convocation of Silvermoon was actually the ruling body of the nation, the King did not have all the power.

Well at least you acknowledged Alleria, Vereesa, and Umbric were not traitors.

[Mehrunes]

To be fair when Lor'themar banished the High Elves and the soon-to-be Void Elves that's pretty much the "right" to break off already. Doesn't apply to Valeera though

The exile of the would-be Void Elves wasn't the same kind of exile as the High Elves trouble makers. The Umbric squad was exiled to Ghostlands, which is a part of Quel'Thalas. So they weren't exactly exiled in the "you are deprived of your citizenship" kind of way. They were just told to stay away from the Sunwell and its whereabouts because their research was a threat to it.

[Minikin]

Fancanon? Ironic coming from you, the fact that under his head it sais "king Regent" makes it pretty canon Also if you open like any history book in the world, you might come across the titles such as "King/prince Regent" since that is an actual fucking title used in medieval history.

HAHAHAHAHA "Besides, following your logic, every single blood elf who currently exists is also a descendant of the Dark Trolls.... so does this mean Theron should serve Queen Talanji or whoever leads the Dark Trolls?" Please look up "reductio ad absurdum fallacy" then grow up and come back with a real argument.

Yes, Sunstriders were banished and founded their own kingdom in a distant land and everyone in that kingdom is his subject including Valeera and he is free to do whatever he wants with him. That is how absolute monarchy works. Unlike the void elves and some of the high elves, valeera was never banished therefor still bound to the Kingdom of Quelthalas.

LOL WHAT?

you need to take a walk to Sunfury Spire lol.

[Ardenaso]

The exile of the would-be Void Elves wasn't the same kind of exile as the High Elves trouble makers. The Umbric squad was exiled to Ghostlands, which is a part of Quel'Thalas. So they weren't exactly exiled in the "you are deprived of your citizenship" kind of way. They were just told to stay away from the Sunwell and its whereabouts because their research was a threat to it.

That's weird, I thought Rommath would have rather have Lor'themar have them offed in whatever possible be it gtfo Quel'thalas or death

[faithbane]

What are you talking about? It doesn't say "King Regent", it says "Regent Lord".



Not really. I am applying your logic completely. But if you apply something absurd, the result will be equally absurd.



Quel'thalas was not an absolute monarchy though. The Convocation of Silvermoon was actually the ruling body of the nation, the King did not have all the power.

Well at least you acknowledged Alleria, Vereesa, and Umbric were not traitors.

Sorry its my history degree going ahead of me and making me misread things sometimes.. since "regent lord" and "king regent" are basically the same thing. "regent has one definition really.

No, you are taking the argument to an absurd degree which is the definition of that fallacy.

Yep, we do agree on the last point for sure.

[Minikin]

Sorry its my history degree going ahead of me and making me misread things sometimes.. since "regent lord" and "king regent" are basically the same thing. "regent has one definition really.

No, you are taking the argument to an absurd degree which is the definition of that fallacy.

Yep, we do agree on the last point for sure.

yes im sure you calling it a FACT that it is under his head, has anything to do with you misreading something. So instead of saying "hey bro I was wrong my bad" you go with the "oH BuT It iS tHe sAMe THinG, faCTZ"

Fancanon? Ironic coming from you, the fact that under his head it sais "king Regent" makes it pretty canon Also if you open like any history book in the world, you might come across the titles such as "King/prince Regent" since that is an actual fucking title used in medieval history.

HAHAHAHAHA "Besides, following your logic, every single blood elf who currently exists is also a descendant of the Dark Trolls.... so does this mean Theron should serve Queen Talanji or whoever leads the Dark Trolls?" Please look up "reductio ad absurdum fallacy" then grow up and come back with a real argument.

Yes, Sunstriders were banished and founded their own kingdom in a distant land and everyone in that kingdom is his subject including Valeera and he is free to do whatever he wants with him. That is how absolute monarchy works. Unlike the void elves and some of the high elves, valeera was never banished therefor still bound to the Kingdom of Quelthalas.

[Varodoc]

Sorry its my history degree going ahead of me and making me misread things sometimes.. since "regent lord" and "king regent" are basically the same thing. "regent has one definition really.

No, you are taking the argument to an absurd degree which is the definition of that fallacy.

Yep, we do agree on the last point for sure.

"King regent" is not even a title.

Following your logic, the Sunstriders have no authority to rule in the first place, since they, like Valeera, sought to undermine the efforts of their lawful ruler Azshara. But if the Sunstriders have no authority, then Valeera has no duty towards them.

[faithbane]

"King regent" is not even a title.

Following your logic, the Sunstriders have no authority to rule in the first place, since they, like Valeera, sought to undermine the efforts of their lawful ruler Azshara. But if the Sunstriders have no authority, then Valeera has no duty towards them.

King regent is most definitely a title and it is made to differentiate it from the stand alone title "regent".

Regent - could refer to someone ruling as an absolute representative of the king or the next ruler in line

King or Queen Regent - would refer to a male or female ruling in the place of a rightful king who might be a minor, sick, or outside the country for a long duration.

[Varodoc]

King regent is most definitely a title and it is made to differentiate it from the stand alone title "regent".

Regent - could refer to someone ruling as an absolute representative of the king or the next ruler in line

King or Queen Regent - would refer to a male or female ruling in the place of a rightful king who might be a minor, sick, or outside the country for a long duration.

Which Theron very clearly isn't. Technically Quel'thalas isn't even anything now. It's not a monarchy, it's not a democracy, it's nothing, it's still in interregnum.

[Aucald]

Which Theron very clearly isn't. Technically Quel'thalas isn't even anything now. It's not a monarchy, it's not a democracy, it's nothing, it's still in interregnum.

It's a former monarchy that is likely on its way to becoming some form of oligarchy in all likelihood. Even under Dath'remar and Anasterian, there was an effective senate in place referred to as the Convocation of Silvermoon - while Lor'themar occupies the seat of regent in the absence of a hereditary monarch he has no interest in assuming the full power of the throne left vacant by Kael'thas. Upon Lor'themar's death it is likely this convocation will go on to rule Quel'Thalas directly if a new monarch or regent is not installed first. The convocation itself is formed from the great and royal houses of the Sin'dorei, and though very little is known of it we do know the identities of a few of its members such as Grand Magister Belo'vir. It's assumed that Rommath is part of this convocation due to Belo'vir's death in the Third War (representing the Magisters), Halduron is a member and represents the Farstriders, as well as a few other nobles and important personages. Lady Liadrin and Tae'thelan Bloodwatcher may also be de facto members.

[Soon-TM]

That's weird, I thought Rommath would have rather have Lor'themar have them offed in whatever possible be it gtfo Quel'thalas or death

Yes, Rommath appears to have overreacted af to the Sunwell incident, but he was overruled by Lor'themar, who is a quite chill guy actually.

[Shiza]

Again - Silvermoon is a !@#&ing monarchy. You don't get to disavow your rightful ruler's calls just because you are salty (even if you have legitimate reasons for it), without being branded a traitor. That's how absolute monarchies worked, my dude.

It isn't though. It is a Dictatorship. Lor'themar may still use the title of a regent lord and he was once appointed by the prince, but since then he joined to swear fealty to the Warchief, who was the regent of an enemy faction to the rightful heir and prince of Quel'thalas and therefore to the kingdom of Quel'thalas. Both the Illidari and the burning Legion were at this point hostile to the Horde and Kael'thas belonged to either of both factions during the time Lor'themar swore fealty to the Warchief, just as Kael'thas personal troups, who where official forces of the Kingdom of Quel'thalas, where at all the time hostile and in a state of war against the Horde.

I don't know of Lor'themars forces where participating in the raid against Tempest Keep, but we know for certain that Lor'themar and the Blood Elves of Quel'thalas participated in a revolution against their rightful ruler during the battle of Quel'danas and ended up assassinating him. So no, you can't argue with Quel'thalas being a monarchy and Lor'themar being the rightful ruler of Quel'thalas appointed by the Sunstrider Dynasty, when Lor'themar swore fealty to a hostile leader to the crown of Quel'thalas, fought the personal forces of the prince of Quel'thalas who served as the liege to the nation and then openly participated in a revolution against the Prince who appointed him. Lor'themar and all of the Blood Elves were already traitors the moment they joined the Horde, they made it clear by slaughtering forces of their prince and fighting against his allies, before they participated in an open rebellion against him and assassinated him.

Quel'thalas desposed of its former government and then formed a new government, even if it was still lead by the same legent lord who was appointed under Kael'thas rule. Valeera was a prisoner and slave of the Horde during the time the Blood Elves betrayed the Sunstrider Dynasty and swore fealty and chose not to serve under the new government, which was vasal state of the hostile Horde. At best, she is a traitor for defecting to the liege of the Kingdom of Stormwind, which was an enemy to Kael'thas and the Sunstrider Monarchy just as much as the Horde was, but in this case she is no more or less a traitor than every single Blood Elf who wasn't a member of the Illidari and then defected to the burning legion.

She can call herself a blood elf as she wants, because the Silvermoon Blood elves do the same despite betraying their liege. Especially since she never swore fealty to the Horde nore Lor'themars government after their open betrayal to the Sunstrider Dynasty.

- - - Updated - - -

Which Theron very clearly isn't. Technically Quel'thalas isn't even anything now. It's not a monarchy, it's not a democracy, it's nothing, it's still in interregnum.

It is by definition probably a republic now, because it is a state without a king.

[Mehrunes]

Besides, following your logic, every single blood elf who currently exists is also a descendant of the Dark Trolls.... so does this mean Theron should serve Queen Talanji or whoever leads the Dark Trolls?

Also, you do realize Dath'remar Sunstrider was exactly that, right? He was someone who disagreed with the new ruling government of the Kaldorei and thus was exiled. He is no different from Alleria, Vereesa, or Magister Umbric. He even caused a disaster like Alleria, the only difference being that what Alleria caused was confined to one room, whereas Dath'remar unleashed a terrible arcane storm on an entire forest. So does this mean that Quel'thalas is founded on treachery? You said it!

I mean, he broke the law and got punished for it with exile to the other side of the world. It's all rather straightforward...

I wasn't referring to you don't worry, I had Soon and other people like him in mind, people who hate "traitors" (so the usual Baine, Saurfang, Thrall, Vol'jin, yada yada yada) yet at the same time praise said traitors if it's convenient.

What do you mean "praise them"? Your original point was about how people say that X person has betrayed Lor'themar even though Lor'themar is himself a traitor to two different Warchiefs. Which isn't a praise of Lor'themar, it's statement of a fact. That you fallaciously tried to twist into hypocrisy as if Lor'themar betraying people made it impossible to betray him in turn. And then you instead talked about how some people are saying that Lor'themar should punish X person. Which also isn't a praise. If anything it's the opposite, it's an implicit criticism of Lor'themar (alongside the direct criticism of the other person) of how he's not doing what he should have done. You can't even keep your story consistent here. Making your accusations against other people rather diminished of their effectiveness.

Quel'thalas was not an absolute monarchy though. The Convocation of Silvermoon was actually the ruling body of the nation, the King did not have all the power.

The convocation was destroyed during the war against the Scourge, leaving Kael the sole authority over the kingdom.

Well at least you acknowledged Alleria, Vereesa, and Umbric were not traitors.

@faithbane made no such acknowledgement. If their point revolves around how Valeera was never banished, then the same applies to Alleria and Vereesa. Alleria wasn't even present for any of the debacles concerning the Blood Elf - High Elf split. And Vereesa was at the time living in Dalaran already so she also wasn't among the exiles. And the same actually applies to the Void Elves since, as I pointed out in my reply to @Ardenaso, the Void Elves were exiled to a different part of Quel'Thalas where they'd still be under Lor'themar's jurisdiction. So they were exiled in the "go do your stupid nonsense somewhere else than the heart of the kingdom", not flat out banished from the society.

King regent is most definitely a title and it is made to differentiate it from the stand alone title "regent".

Regent - could refer to someone ruling as an absolute representative of the king or the next ruler in line

King or Queen Regent - would refer to a male or female ruling in the place of a rightful king who might be a minor, sick, or outside the country for a long duration.

That's... not what queen regent means. Queen regent is a regent who also happens to be a queen. As in, separately from the regent part. Typically either a queen that's a regent to her husband, the king or a queen that's regent to her child that succeeded said kingly husband of hers. King regent would be analogous though I can't think of any examples due to how widespread male dynastic preference (if not exclusivity) has been. By this metric any and all regent that rules outside of an interregnum situation would have been king or queen regent. Which wasn't exactly the case.

That's weird, I thought Rommath would have rather have Lor'themar have them offed in whatever possible be it gtfo Quel'thalas or death

Rommath is who had them banished. Maybe if you changed the chronology of events and Umbric's squad had been caught dabbling into the Void after Alleria already opened a rift to the Void on top of the Sunwell he'd have been harsher on them.

It's a former monarchy that is likely on its way to becoming some form of oligarchy in all likelihood. Even under Dath'remar and Anasterian, there was an effective senate in place referred to as the Convocation of Silvermoon - while Lor'themar occupies the seat of regent in the absence of a hereditary monarch he has no interest in assuming the full power of the throne left vacant by Kael'thas.

An interregum doesn't unmake a monarchy. And calling the Convocation of Silvermoon a senate is a stretch.

It isn't though. It is a Dictatorship. Lor'themar may still use the title of a regent lord and he was once appointed by the prince, but since then he joined to swear fealty to the Warchief, who was the regent of an enemy faction to the rightful heir and prince of Quel'thalas and therefore to the kingdom of Quel'thalas. Both the Illidari and the burning Legion were at this point hostile to the Horde and Kael'thas belonged to either of both factions during the time Lor'themar swore fealty to the Warchief, just as Kael'thas personal troups, who where official forces of the Kingdom of Quel'thalas, where at all the time hostile and in a state of war against the Horde.

Quel'Thalas joined the Horde before the Horde expedition got to Outland and Kael started attacking them. And they joined the Horde primarily to use their help to get to Outland and join Kael's "Utopia".

I don't know of Lor'themars forces where participating in the raid against Tempest Keep, but we know for certain that Lor'themar and the Blood Elves of Quel'thalas participated in a revolution against their rightful ruler during the battle of Quel'danas and ended up assassinating him. So no, you can't argue with Quel'thalas being a monarchy and Lor'themar being the rightful ruler of Quel'thalas appointed by the Sunstrider Dynasty, when Lor'themar swore fealty to a hostile leader to the crown of Quel'thalas, fought the personal forces of the prince of Quel'thalas who served as the liege to the nation and then openly participated in a revolution against the Prince who appointed him. Lor'themar and all of the Blood Elves were already traitors the moment they joined the Horde, they made it clear by slaughtering forces of their prince and fighting against his allies, before they participated in an open rebellion against him and assassinated him.

Kael is the one who attacked Quel'Thalas, not the other way around.

It is by definition probably a republic now, because it is a state without a king.

Interregnum doesn't equal a republic.

[Shiza]

Quel'Thalas joined the Horde before the Horde expedition got to Outland and Kael started attacking them. And they joined the Horde primarily to use their help to get to Outland and join Kael's "Utopia".

This doesn't changes the fact that Lor'themar swore fealty to an enemy leader to his liege and remained loyal to him even after his lieges forces attacked members of the Horde. He wilfully betrayed Kael'thas.

Kael is the one who attacked Quel'Thalas, not the other way around.

After the Horde and therefore the Blood Elves also allied themselves with Shattrath. And they still engaged in open rebellion against him, after already becoming vasalls to an enemy ruler of Quel'thalas. Don't forget that there was never any indication, that Kael'thas is not an enemy to the Horde and that there was never a state of peace between the Horde and Quel'thalas.

Interregnum doesn't equal a republic.

There is no interregnum going on, Lor'themar seems to be settled as the new ruler of Quel'thalas, they disposed of the old government.

[Jastall]

But Valeera is from Quel'Thalas. It's not like there' a plethora of Thalasian nation on Azeroth.

Well, for one, there are Thalassian elves outside of Quel'thalas, chiefly High Elves living in Dalaran, Stormwind, and that lodge whose name I can't remember. I think Theramore also had a bunch of them before getting Hiroshima'd. So being a Thalassian elf does not automatically decide one's nationality even if the vast majority of them are indeed citizens of Silvermoon.

Secondly, as I said earlier, Valeera was a slave to the Horde when Quel'thalas decided to join it. It's not like she'd been in the loop or had any sort of say in the matter, or even an opportunity to leave/get exiled if she didn't like it. Has she even come back to Silvermoon after Rehgar freed her?