8.3 looks damn sweet

[Revamp Man]

Because we’re not talking about the gated difficulty? What we’re talking about is the throughput and mechanical difficulty. Just as the mage tower got trivialized due to being introduced early this will also become more trivial as time goes by. Instead of gaining item level you are gaining resistance. It’s literally progression in an RPG. Mechanically, visions are more challenging because they have more variation.

The only way you can resistance is by doing the visions where is the mage tower you got nothing for failing you literally get participation rewards through visions if you fail you don’t even have to complete the vision in order to get your upgrades after ranks six you can fail where as in the mage tower if you failed you got nothing you even kept the D buff from using hero

The only way you gain resistance is by doing the visions where is the mage tower you got nothing for failing you literally get participation rewards through visions if you fail you don’t even have to complete the vision in order to get your upgrades after rank six you can fail where as in the mage tower if you failed you got nothing you even kept the DPF from using hero

Heck envisions there is a research tree for you to pop back to life after dying ones which can be cheese in so many ways instead of having to use an orb I can just let myself die you didn’t get second chances in the mage tower I didn’t get a place down in order and then AOE pull around it so you’re constantly healing sanity and health there was no way to cheese that means tower unless you were extremely lucky with legendary’s or you already are geared

It took me 57 tries on my Windwalker to clear it at heroic night hold level gear

My worrier who I kept a couple weeks ago is ranked eight after failing two visions

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Why not? The rewards were there even after it was current content. They got removed after the expansion ended.

Even so, a direct comparison would be: mechanically, the tower had a few scripted fights while the visions have added variation due to masks and madnesses. It’s as simple as that. The tower never changed at all.

The tower never changed but it still remained challenging for the most part you couldn’t get Little Timmy who only does Ella far to go into the mage tower and be able to get everything on his offspec and main spec whereas envisions if Little Timmy hits his head against it hard enough he will eventually walk out with five masks and a full clear

[DemonDays]

Because we’re not talking about the gated difficulty? What we’re talking about is the throughput and mechanical difficulty. Just as the mage tower got trivialized due to being introduced early this will also become more trivial as time goes by. Instead of gaining item level you are gaining resistance. It’s literally progression in an RPG. Mechanically, visions are more challenging because they have more variation.

This just in: Dodging puddles on the floor and spam AoEing down trivial groups of mobs is hard.

I'd love to see some of you people in a Dota 2 game. It would be hilarious.

[Penegal]

The only way you can resistance is by doing the visions where is the mage tower you got nothing for failing you literally get participation rewards through visions if you fail you don’t even have to complete the vision in order to get your upgrades after ranks six you can fail where as in the mage tower if you failed you got nothing you even kept the D buff from using hero

The only way you gain resistance is by doing the visions where is the mage tower you got nothing for failing you literally get participation rewards through visions if you fail you don’t even have to complete the vision in order to get your upgrades after rank six you can fail where as in the mage tower if you failed you got nothing you even kept the DPF from using hero

Heck envisions there is a research tree for you to pop back to life after dying ones which can be cheese in so many ways instead of having to use an orb I can just let myself die you didn’t get second chances in the mage tower I didn’t get a place down in order and then AOE pull around it so you’re constantly healing sanity and health there was no way to cheese that means tower unless you were extremely lucky with legendary’s or you already are geared

It took me 57 tries on my Windwalker to clear it at heroic night hold level gear

My worrier who I kept a couple weeks ago is ranked eight after failing two visions

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The tower never changed but it still remained challenging for the most part you couldn’t get Little Timmy who only does Ella far to go into the mage tower and be able to get everything on his offspec and main spec whereas envisions if Little Timmy hits his head against it hard enough he will eventually walk out with five masks and a full clear

Are you seriously saying that static, unchangeable content could not be beaten through repetition? How is it you are confident little timmy cannot defeat the mage tower which never changes and can be done pretty much endlessly until you win but can defeat a full vision with 5 masks if he tries for long enough? It makes zero sense.

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This just in: Dodging puddles on the floor and spam AoEing down trivial groups of mobs is hard.

I'd love to see some of you people in a Dota 2 game. It would be hilarious.

It was never hard to begin with. Just because something is more challenging than something else doesn’t make it hard. Neither the visions nor the mage tower are hard.

[Tech614]

Interesting when Blizzard came out and said that 135,000 people had cleared Mage Tower by week 2 that either one of you think someone being able to do it in about 2 weeks is absurd.

More like your claim that you did it on every spec in the game within 2 weeks is absurd. Nobody said anything about doing it period. You made a bullshit claim you have no intent of backing up, if so you would have already provided the proof.

[Revamp Man]

Are you seriously saying that static, unchangeable content could not be beaten through repetition? How is it you are confident little timmy cannot defeat the mage tower which never changes and can be done pretty much endlessly until you win but can defeat a full vision with 5 masks if he tries for long enough? It makes zero sense.

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It was never hard to begin with. Just because something is more challenging than something else doesn’t make it hard. Neither the visions nor the mage tower are hard.

Because you do get rewarded for failing a vision whereas you did not get rewarded when you failed the mage tower

Making a mistake in the mage tower could lead to failure no matter how much you out geared it where as making a mistake in a vision can be made completely useless by simply leveling up your cloak through repetition and gaining research upgrades or did you not notice the final upgrade in the tree

Making a mistake in the mage tower could lead to failure no matter how much you out geared it where as making a mistake in a vision can be made completely useless by simply leveling up your cloak through repetition and gaining research upgrades or did you not notice the final upgrade in the tree?

Are you telling me that if Little Jimmy slams his face against the vision 100 times he gets absolutely nothing for doing it whereas if he goes to a mage tower he would suddenly be rewarded with making it better??

I failed the rep paladin challenge again and again I did not get any kind of bonus out of those 10 tries whereas on my shaman where I failed three visions or so I was able to get enough Momentos to buy a few upgrades and since I take him through a weekly Raid I can buy more upgrades as well

Heck I just recently managed to do a full clear and after unlocking the mask went back in and did three areas with minimal effort and cleared it

That wasn’t due to skill that was due to the fact that I have an almost full research tree

[Musta]

oh look, an opinion.

[asil]

Being clicked =/= being bad. In PvE you can get about the same result as keybinder if you are good clicker.

And I mean really bad people so majority of players.

I'm not trying to be a dick, but there is no universe in which you're clicking in PVE and at the same level as someone bindings. It's just not physically possible, it hampers movement, reaction time, everything.

There's a reason everyone that plays the game at any real level uses bindings. And to be clear here, I was a clicker in vanilla and early BC. I got gladiator clicking. It's outright inferior in every way possible.

[kaminaris]

Visions have almost no mechanics to be aware of, or that are at all punishing. even with several masks on it's a straight up DPS / interrupt / don't stand in bad. If you think it's harder than I am concerned about you as a player.

He is correct, I saw a girl on stream doing pala ret mage tower and she said she doesn't use WSAD to move because she can't so she used mouse to move. Still did it in WQ/random gear within a couple of tries.

And today I went with my 555 hunter with random pug, 2 people died at the beginning, without any masks. If not for me and DH, we wouldn't been able to clear it.
Then for half of the run we decided to abandon mage who didn't do any damage, he just died.

Now this is very fukken simple

Mage tower had like 975 max ilvl gear, that was maximum you could get. At 930 all of them were trivial. At 900 it was somewhat challenging.
So that is minus 75 ilvl compared to maximum gear where mage tower had any challenge. And minus 45 where it was trivial.

Compared to visions. Random people struggle to do JUST full clear without masks at ~450 ilvl.
So it is pretty much impossible for them to clear it at full masks. Minus 25-30 ilvl from max

If you assemble a team of 400 (-75) ilvl people, it will simply fail miserably.
And you are not going to get stronger than that, your back will reducing sanity drain BUT STILL GEAR will be required to clear it in time. Not to mention when wearing masks.

[Zentail]

More like your claim that you did it on every spec in the game within 2 weeks is absurd. Nobody said anything about doing it period. You made a bullshit claim you have no intent of backing up, if so you would have already provided the proof.

I don’t intend on backing it up? I countered a claim that had no ground—the one you’re making. Where’s your evidence for your claim? Oh wait, there’s none? Okay then.

[kaminaris]

Healing one's were very chill, I did my druids (main at the time) 'Yunaqt-Frostmourne' on the very first day we got the Mage Tower it took ~6 attempts, April 3 '17 (4/04/17 for Oceanic, we're from the future) I've found the Visions personally more challenging but I've enjoyed both immensely.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ch...nsion-features
Achievement: A Challenging Look

Remember, my alts were solely for making free gold. They all had ~900 ilvl and random or NO legiondaries at all (speaking more precisely = I had 2-3 legendaries only for one spec per alt).
So if I struggled too much, I went to LFR because any item from there was massive upgrade.

My main obliterated all challenges while healers: Paladin, priest, monk, druid had ~50 tries.

[Tech614]

I don’t intend on backing it up? I countered a claim that had no ground—the one you’re making. Where’s your evidence for your claim? Oh wait, there’s none? Okay then.

I haven't made a claim genius. You claimed you did every spec mage tower within 2 weeks of release, offered no proof and are now just drowning in salt because someone called your bluff. You haven't even proved you did one spec within 2 weeks let alone every spec in the game. So if you intend on backing up your claim do so, or don't bother quoting me again.

[Lei]

Interesting when Blizzard came out and said that 135,000 people had cleared Mage Tower by week 2 that either one of you think someone being able to do it in about 2 weeks is absurd. People who are alt friendly that didn't do them all by the end of week 4, for example, are just plain bad players. You guys are trying to measure something that you think is hard that was, in fact, not too terribly difficult. The average number of attempts to clear Mage Tower, which Blizzard said was 32 tries, is substantially lower than most raid content in the game for the average player (when I watch random streams on my lunch break, people are truly incapable of the most basic mechanics in raids), and raids are easy outside of Mythic.

The only way either one of you can validly support your own claim is to also claim that Heroic raiding is incredibly difficult content, in which case, no one wants you in their raids. Remember, Heroic used to be Normal. I look forward to both of your ongoing complaints about things you don't know going into Shadowlands.

Also, Demon, you clearly didn't see any of the videos/guides for day 1 clears. But yeah. "YoU cAn'T bY aNy MeAsUrE oF sKiLl!!/!"

The full statistics goes like this


So out of 15.2 MILLION attempts 135 k succeeded, and the 135 k succeeded with an average 32 tries. This was 2 weeks after the release of 7.2, which is basically the first round I guess.
Not to mention that the tower was up for only 3 days (and was under building/on cooldown for longer if i remember correctly), to even start them required fully upgraded artifacts, new 7.2 unlock questline completed, nethershards upon failing. Flasks, runes, repairing, and actually playing. Everything in 3 days for thirtysomething specs/skins. Every alt in close to 900-ish ilevel (ToV mythic ended with 890-895 ilevel), that was tuned for ToS heroic-ish gear. World quests only gave 870 base level, relinquished started at 880 for 5k nethershards.
Yeah, sounds feasible.

[Ghostile]

The tower never changed but it still remained challenging for the most part you couldn’t get Little Timmy who only does Ella far to go into the mage tower and be able to get everything on his offspec and main spec whereas envisions if Little Timmy hits his head against it hard enough he will eventually walk out with five masks and a full clear

That's exactly how I got the MT skins on my offspecs.

[Doffen]

If you assemble a team of 400 (-75) ilvl people, it will simply fail miserably.
And you are not going to get stronger than that, your back will reducing sanity drain BUT STILL GEAR will be required to clear it in time. Not to mention when wearing masks.

False comparison. 480 will be equal to 950, and 450 is more like 890 back then. Not to mention you get to equip more corrupted gear(so like going from 1 to 2 legendaries) sanity reduction, cloak proc etc. You could only compare this if the visions came out a year ago when we actually were 400. It's like saying mage tower was tuned for 830 players. I would like to see someone at 830 with 1 legendary do the damage you needed to do them. Not that it is impossible but someone already cleared with all masks as well. We were 900 in what, january/february 2017? And 975 in January/ february 2018? And we were 400 in december/january 2018-2019? And will be 475 in february/march 2020. See how your comparison falls flat?

Yes, mage tower would be immensly easy at 975, not to mention 930+. Did it with specs I hadn't even tried and rolled the bosses over @930. But when the cloak is maxed, with best two rank3 corruption, 475+ 5 masks will be steamroll too. Because thats what you can compare it to. 900 to 930, compared to 450 to 480. When I get there HV will be super easy too. But if you want to compare it Mage Tower then compare it to tuned level. Not to the ilvl we had a year ago. Because that comparison is unheard of. 890 to 450 would be in line.

Which one was hardest? I cleared MT on my MM hunter at 897. I cleared HV in 449. First mask at 452. 2 with 456. Is 5 masks at 450 harder than Mage Tower in 890? I would say so, wouldn't you? No need to go lengths to make another attempt to say Legion was worse lmao. But when we go 1-2 months from now, 5 masks wont be so challenging either. Which compared to Mage Tower would be like 930-940.

But you can't seriously sit here and compare HV vision that came out a month ago to a mage tower that came out 7-8 months before the comparison you try to make actually would start. That you bold that one sentence just enhance that you try to make a non valid comparison. Come on now..

What I miss in HV to MT is the rewards. The masks helms are a joke. Wouldn't it be nice to get some proper reward? Mage Tower had aweaome weapon skins. Which to me was a good reason to do all the challenges beside, the challenge. Though late ToS it wasn't so challenging amirite.

[Sliske]

BIG OOOF

turns out with masks it's actually 10 times harder than mage tower ever was even with low item level.

found the guy who had dps mage towers

low item level (910 pre-tomb of sargeras) mage tower for prot pala is easily harder than the vast majority of mythic raid bosses in the game. Its probably only beaten by stuff like Mythic Kil'jaeden

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The full statistics goes like this


So out of 15.2 MILLION attempts 135 k succeeded, and the 135 k succeeded with an average 32 tries. This was 2 weeks after the release of 7.2, which is basically the first round I guess.
Not to mention that the tower was up for only 3 days (and was under building/on cooldown for longer if i remember correctly), to even start them required fully upgraded artifacts, new 7.2 unlock questline completed, nethershards upon failing. Flasks, runes, repairing, and actually playing. Everything in 3 days for thirtysomething specs/skins. Every alt in close to 900-ish ilevel (ToV mythic ended with 890-895 ilevel), that was tuned for ToS heroic-ish gear. World quests only gave 870 base level, relinquished started at 880 for 5k nethershards.
Yeah, sounds feasible.

Sadly this includes all mage towers. Many mage towers were easily one-shottable even in the lowest gear levels, like disc priest, BM hunter and so on (the worm boss, forget his name, was notoriously the most easy.)

Then other ones were very easy too, such as the imp mother. She could even be cheesed with world buffs that did half of your total damage.

Then you got to the harder dps ones, which were still quite easy, like Sigryn.

Then the healer ones, a step above that and lastly, the tank ones, but even there the gap in skill required was huge. Bears could ignore half the mechanics, so could vengeance DHs. Meanwhile, paladins had to deal with all of it and also had to do double the damage of other tanks.

Just for a comparison, myself, doing all 36, on average 1-5 shotted all DPS challenges in 7.2. The average for healer was 7. Tanks the average was 20, but the easiest was Guardian druid, which i did in 4 attempts, meanwhile, the prot paladin one took me 60 attempts. It was also my most geared character by far and my main. I barely knew how to play the other specs.

For comparison to just how easy some of the DPS ones were - i did sigryn as ret, which i hadn't played since MoP, doing grey percentile dps (for my item level), taking so long i was able to use bloodlust twice and it still only took me two tries. I had time to stop half way through the fight and look through my spellbook, discovering a cool new spell 'wake of ashes', too.

If you even blinked for most of the prot paladin challenge in 910-ish ilvl, you were instantly dead

[Revamp Man]

That's exactly how I got the MT skins on my offspecs.

Which challenges?

[Wheeler]

BIG OOOF

turns out with masks it's actually 10 times harder than mage tower ever was even with low item level.

Yeah it's insane to me that someone actually has this opinion. Multi-mask clears are likely the most difficult solo content put into WoW by a mile. Especially if you're doing them right now.

[Doffen]

Yeah it's insane to me that someone actually has this opinion. Multi-mask clears are likely the most difficult solo content put into WoW by a mile. Especially if you're doing them right now.

With 4-5 masks sure, but with 1 or 2? Not at all. Doing MT at 900 was harder than doing HV with 2 masks at 455(my experience). At 5 though, sure thing, HV is harder compared to equal ilvl to ilvl.

[Tech614]

found the guy who had dps mage towers

low item level (910 pre-tomb of sargeras) mage tower for prot pala is easily harder than the vast majority of mythic raid bosses in the game. Its probably only beaten by stuff like Mythic Kil'jaeden

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Sadly this includes all mage towers. Many mage towers were easily one-shottable even in the lowest gear levels, like disc priest, BM hunter and so on (the worm boss, forget his name, was notoriously the most easy.)

Then other ones were very easy too, such as the imp mother. She could even be cheesed with world buffs that did half of your total damage.

Then you got to the harder dps ones, which were still quite easy, like Sigryn.

Then the healer ones, a step above that and lastly, the tank ones, but even there the gap in skill required was huge. Bears could ignore half the mechanics, so could vengeance DHs. Meanwhile, paladins had to deal with all of it and also had to do double the damage of other tanks.

Just for a comparison, myself, doing all 36, on average 1-5 shotted all DPS challenges in 7.2. The average for healer was 7. Tanks the average was 20, but the easiest was Guardian druid, which i did in 4 attempts, meanwhile, the prot paladin one took me 60 attempts. It was also my most geared character by far and my main. I barely knew how to play the other specs.

For comparison to just how easy some of the DPS ones were - i did sigryn as ret, which i hadn't played since MoP, doing grey percentile dps (for my item level), taking so long i was able to use bloodlust twice and it still only took me two tries. I had time to stop half way through the fight and look through my spellbook, discovering a cool new spell 'wake of ashes', too.

If you even blinked for most of the prot paladin challenge in 910-ish ilvl, you were instantly dead

I agree the tank one was a nightmare for prot pallies at the start but druids and DH didn't even make it a joke as bad as brewmasters did. As a monk you talent the pet and he literally tanked the entire 2nd phase for you and you had to do jack shit but interupt and make sure velen didn't die, free kill if you got to p2.

[Devilyaki]

Found the tower more fun, vision keep doing weird bugs and have annoying stuff in them. Falling threw the world, getting stuck in combat, stupid timer.. too much bs added to them. Love to explore the place but have to go go go cause reasons. Sad.