Should Lor'themar stand up for the imprisoned blood elves?

[Minikin]

It doesn't matter. H-help'Jin was an imbecile anyway, Loa or Death guy, what's the difference. But can be interpreted as Loa.

It's part of the Blood Oath, to give your life for the Warchief.

is she still the warchief if she says "the horde is nothing" and then flies away?

[Reinhart11]

As if Horde leaders these days stand up for their own people and their interests. They are more interested in licking alliance boots and leading their own people badly. I mean, that scene in the Vulpera questline, where Baine stands in Grommash Hold, not even able to handle the most simple of problems (although it says a lot about the other characters and their competence, who are present there, not being able to handle these minor tasks as well, maybe aside from the Naga attack, but if one hero and a vulpera can handle the Naga, the attack could not have been that big and dangerous), says it all. The Horde is lead by a bunch of incompetent bastards who don't give a damn about their people, especially if their people don't follow the expectations of these characters.

[Ardenaso]

Given how Afrasiabi is on record confirming that Garrosh in the Stonetalon questline (i.e. the one redeeming moment of the character in the entirety of Cataclysm that is always the get go argument for anyone trying to push the idea that Garrosh was meant to go another route) written by him was a mistake because he didn't check with Kosak what Kosak's direction for the character was in Cata (and apparently also slept through all the meetings in which that direction was made), that rumor is 100% not true whatsoever.

Given how he reprimanded the Horde members who backstabbed the Alliance in WOTLK and how he didn't want civilian deaths in general; I'd say the devs really did a 180 on him

[Terongor]

It's ridiculous he ever supported her, you'd think the Blood Elves of all people would take issue with an evil, maniacal undead force rampaging around destroying cities

Alot of belfs chose to remember her how she saved their kind from scourge, from dark'khan wielding sunwells powers, helped drive scourge from ghostlands and battle amani.

Also most civilians saw alliance as enemies and common pov were (because of limited knowledge)after murder of rastakhan Baine helped alliance by giving them the only prisoner worthy of something, varok working with the alliance and thrall joining him and Lor'themar working with the alliance.

Evil is subjective I would argue that many people saw alliance and "traitors" as evil

And sylvanas had gained support of the hordes common folk this expansion while only upper echelongs of the races sided against her usually.

[ravenmoon]

Given how Afrasiabi is on record confirming that Garrosh in the Stonetalon questline (i.e. the one redeeming moment of the character in the entirety of Cataclysm that is always the get go argument for anyone trying to push the idea that Garrosh was meant to go another route) written by him was a mistake because he didn't check with Kosak what Kosak's direction for the character was in Cata (and apparently also slept through all the meetings in which that direction was made), that rumor is 100% not true whatsoever.

When I read things like this, it oesn't surprise me in the slightest and really makes me question why I still bother with this crap that often is a pile of garbage.

Too sentimentally attached is my guess, and playing wow inevitably leads me back to considering the lore, and with that, desiring greater quality which is never a certainty, as every time you think ah, they're taking this more seriously and doing it better, they do something that screams the exact opposite.

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Given how he reprimanded the Horde members who backstabbed the Alliance in WOTLK and how he didn't want civilian deaths in general; I'd say the devs really did a 180 on him

I don't understand this, what are you trying to say? Last I heard like most of the senior devs, he plays horde and writes centred on them. Which sadly doesn't turn out well for the faction, because people find i crap.

[Xykotic]

It's ridiculous he ever supported her, you'd think the Blood Elves of all people would take issue with an evil, maniacal undead force rampaging around destroying cities

When Sylvanas stepped out of line, ALL the leaders should've just ousted her and that would've been the end of it. Instead the writers decided that 98% of Azeroths population was just mentally disabled for the duration of her reign, because any basic logic would've just shattered the whole narrative they wanted to force through. Blizzards writers are either incompetent, lazy, arrogant, or some combination of the above.

[Lolites]

A Horde leader standing up for anything? Please...

Their role is to agree with the Warchief, not standing up for things.

We will see now with the Council if there will be any change, but I give it up to the expansion after Shadowlands for the Horde to have their next mass murder.

fair point horde leaders only wait for command from warchief
situation in alliance is quite the opposite - king waiting for commands from Genn or other leaders
i think both are shitty

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I mean, the parallels between her and Arthas were pretty clear

Unless genocide is a good thing somehow

it is as long as its commited by alliance, or so it seems in a lot of threads

[Aresk]

Hm, did you not read? Nobody is getting punished because they supported her during the war. They punish those who still do after she reveals that she gives no fucks and leaves.

Not that I disagree that characters like Liadrin and Rexxar being all in for a war led by the likes of Sylvanas was stupid as well. It was. But that's the faction war for you, reducing characters to the red and blue blobs until the red blob descends into infighting.

I can't speak to Liadrin, since I don't recall her doing anything beyond shouting "Darkness cannot abide the Light!" every ten seconds in the Stromgarde warfront, but Rexxar was vocal about his disatisfaction with Sylvanas before Baine and Zelling's escapade, during the second part of the Horde War Campaign. Also, I'm not sure why attacking the Alliance was considered criminal since the groups were at war. It was when her methods started getting more questionable that they rebelled, such as Sylvanas' collaboration with ousted Alliance nobles or her desire to mindwarp Forsaken into kamikaze minions. Raising sentient dead to send them into the heart of Alliance territory on suicide missions and then not caring when they get executed after. Valtrois and Rexxar's conversations after stealing guard uniforms from the Ashvane foundry shows that the Horde was turning against her even before Baine spoke up.

[Ardenaso]

I don't understand this, what are you trying to say? Last I heard like most of the senior devs, he plays horde and writes centred on them. Which sadly doesn't turn out well for the faction, because people find i crap.

Garrosh was honorable in WOTLK and Cata but they decided to shit on him on MoP

[Aresk]

But the only difference between supporting Sylvanas prior to the REEE and after the REee is what though? That she said "horde sucks lol"?? If you supported her before that and/or after that all the alleged crimes are exactly the same. Is it illegal to have opinions in the horde? I think that if people are being put in prison then it should be those that committed crimes during Sylvanas' reign, not people that have opinions after she's gone. That means the entire leadership of the Horde should basically be in chains regardless of what they did later on.

I guess the question is really what crimes they're being imprisoned for. In general, I don't think most of the Horde leadership committed any war crimes (as poorly as they're defined in the Warcraft universe). Based off the context (I haven't finished the Horde loyalist path, so I don't have all the details), the loyalists being rounded up are those who are attempting to continue Sylvanas' plans and destabilize the Horde. Those who supported her due to the position of Warchief during the war and who remain loyal to the Horde are forgiven. I haven't seen any evidence that it's for acts done during the war, but instead acts (or maybe the threat of acts, which would be super sketchy but not below Warcraft politics) conducted after the war, that they're being imprisoned for.

[heateffect]

Lorthemar should be suffocated in his sleep for supporting Baine and be replaced by uhhh...

umm..

who are the other belfs are again?

[Aresk]

Garrosh was honorable in WOTLK and Cata but they decided to shit on him on MoP

Didn't Cata pretty much start with Garrosh throwing the undead at Gilneas in hopes of "securing a port" when we saw in the Battle of Lordaeron that the northern coast of Tirisfal is sufficient for docking naval vessels? Marching troops into a needless war that threatens their extermination doesn't really strike me as honorable.

[Maljinwo]

Didn't Cata pretty much start with Garrosh throwing the undead at Gilneas in hopes of "securing a port" when we saw in the Battle of Lordaeron that the northern coast of Tirisfal is sufficient for docking naval vessels? Marching troops into a needless war that threatens their extermination doesn't really strike me as honorable.

Don't forget when he decided it'd be better to attack the Alliance instead of establishing a base in the Twilight Highlands against a doomsday cult that threatened the world

[Fetus Rex]

is she still the warchief if she says "the horde is nothing" and then flies away?

Yes, because her opinion of the Horde doesn't break the Blood Oath. She may very well hate them all and order mass suicide and it wouldn't change a thing.

[Grazrug]

fair point horde leaders only wait for command from warchief
situation in alliance is quite the opposite - king waiting for commands from Genn or other leaders
i think both are shitty

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it is as long as its commited by alliance, or so it seems in a lot of threads

Horde does it, we lose everything cool and get felt like shit from the writers on purpose. Alliance does it and it's getting handwaved away. Blizzard being biased is nothing new here.

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Didn't Cata pretty much start with Garrosh throwing the undead at Gilneas in hopes of "securing a port" when we saw in the Battle of Lordaeron that the northern coast of Tirisfal is sufficient for docking naval vessels? Marching troops into a needless war that threatens their extermination doesn't really strike me as honorable.

He never was. He was always a jerk and an idiot. Alex was delusional about Garrosh.

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Lorthemar should be suffocated in his sleep for supporting Baine and be replaced by uhhh...

umm..

who are the other belfs are again?

Want a list?

[formerShandalay]

Didn't Cata pretty much start with Garrosh throwing the undead at Gilneas in hopes of "securing a port" when we saw in the Battle of Lordaeron that the northern coast of Tirisfal is sufficient for docking naval vessels? Marching troops into a needless war that threatens their extermination doesn't really strike me as honorable.

He also started WotLK with insulting the person that got him out of his depression in BC, having no strategy at all and just going by hot-headedness, his whole operation having to be saved by Saurfang several times, appointing completely dumb loud-mouths to crucial leader positions (like Agmar and Krenna), who also fucked up stuff badly, just as he did later in Cata with Krom'gar. He and his army (including the player character) wouldn't even have made it out of the Borean Tundra if it hadn't been for Varok Saurfang. Garrosh simply got all the credit, because he was the loudest of all and boasted about himself being so cool and successful. And because Varok actually saved the operation without saying anything about it. Only the player character knows and well... we never say anything about anything anyway ^^

[heateffect]

Didn't Cata pretty much start with Garrosh throwing the undead at Gilneas in hopes of "securing a port" when we saw in the Battle of Lordaeron that the northern coast of Tirisfal is sufficient for docking naval vessels? Marching troops into a needless war that threatens their extermination doesn't really strike me as honorable.

Yes. He was always a shithead but people only latch onto that one (retconned) scenario in 1k Needles for some reason. Saurfang should've just offed him like he threatened to in Wrath.

[Minikin]

Yes, because her opinion of the Horde doesn't break the Blood Oath. She may very well hate them all and order mass suicide and it wouldn't change a thing.

Well the current powers that be disagree which is the story the game is going with.

[Fetus Rex]

Well the current powers that be disagree which is the story the game is going with.

Unfortunately it is as you say.

[Ardenaso]

Didn't Cata pretty much start with Garrosh throwing the undead at Gilneas in hopes of "securing a port" when we saw in the Battle of Lordaeron that the northern coast of Tirisfal is sufficient for docking naval vessels? Marching troops into a needless war that threatens their extermination doesn't really strike me as honorable.

I see. I stand corrected.