It doesnt matter how good you are anymore

[Raelbo]

Having a realistic goal to work towards(BiS in the past) is great for motivation and makes items more special. It's not my fault we get drowned in gear, we have titanforging and corrupt to thank for that.

Objectively, BiS is a terrible idea which happens to work out for a very small slice of the playerbase.

The primary objective of the game is to grow your character power and defeat the final boss. Getting good gear is an objective necessary to achieve that primary objective. Getting BiS on the other hand is not, nor should it be.

The biggest problem with BiS is that it sets a static goalpost for a diverse playerbase which ends up resulting in most players either overplaying content out of the obssession to try and complete the list and getting frustrated and burned out, or hitting their BiS too early and then being left without any direction.

The removal of BiS allows everyone to set their own appropriate goals based on how they enjoy playing the game, rather than an obsessive compulsive need to keep pulling the slot machine in the desperate hope of finally getting that last item.

[Shakana]

Dude you didn’t get the memo if we didn’t like that system then we are super hard-core elitist that hate everyone under us and don’t want them to have fun and want to control how the game is

Good for me i'm not an elitist so that doesn't applies to me, not hard to recognize when systems are not good, you don't need to be a super hard-core elistist for that, and atm i'm pretty much a casual, but i prefer having a system that rewards me fairly with what i conquered and not a false level gearing "oh look, it titanforged, nice", meh x30

[Raelbo]

Exactly. I fundamentally disagree with the goal of their changes to gearing. I also specifically disagree with easy content being able to give rewards as good as or better than the hardest content. I always argued both, with the former being the more important goal. I want an end point to gearing where my character is done and I can either gear up another without directly causing the first character to be weaker or I can compete for ranks on an even playing field.

Your fight became about TF/WF rather than those underlying philosophies though. So despite getting Blizzard to abandon TF/WF you aren't any closer to getting what you actually want...

- - - Updated - - -

I can't tell if you're trying to be ironic? You literally just typed up a LONG rambling sentence with ZERO punctuation.

Satirical, not ironic. But yes that was the point. I suspect it was lost on it's intended recipient because his subsequent replies remain just as unreadable. If someone can't be bothered to put a little bit of effort into making their comment readable, I see no reason to put effort into trying to read it....

[Protean]

Btw. how you can get total of 4 corruptions in 3 weeks. When you have 100% to get corruption items from weekly pvp and pve chests.

Those aren't guaranteed to corrupt. You could be unlucky like me and get mostly trinkets, azerite pieces or items for slots you already have corruption in.

[Raelbo]

i prefer having a system that rewards me fairly with what i conquered and not a false level gearing "oh look, it titanforged, nice", meh x30

This is an attitude that has often come up in the TF debate - that getting a great TF is somehow not earned. Personally I think it's a silly attitude to take because it's self imposed and serves no useful purpose whatsoever.

Yes, I think just about everyone can agree that harder content should reward better gear. The fallacy of your argument is that you're conflating gear (as a whole) with gear (as in single pieces). Being better geared is not about one or two lucky drops. It's about your combined set of gear.

At no point in the history of TF/WF were people able to achieve the same level of gearing as those doing the same content on a higher difficulty, so the titanforges that did happen were never really a threat in that regard.

The way I always saw it, you get the gear you deserve and earned. Sure, luck can play a part and anyone can land up with an "unearned" lucky TF from randomly doing something once, but that really is pretty meaningless. For the most part, the people who land up getting enough benefit from TF to make a meaningful difference to their performance are those who put in consistent effort over time.

Simply put:
If you've cleared the heroic raid 20 times and have 5 TF items, 2 WF and the rest heroic, that's earned - it's better than the average heroic raider, but still quite a bit below the mythic raiders.
If you've done the raid once and got a lucky TF to go with your mix of normal/LFR/WQ gear, that's luck, but doesn't really make a difference - it's still substantially below the regular heroic raider, and nowhere close to the mythic raiders.

[Tradu]

Objectively, BiS is a terrible idea which happens to work out for a very small slice of the playerbase.

The primary objective of the game is to grow your character power and defeat the final boss. Getting good gear is an objective necessary to achieve that primary objective. Getting BiS on the other hand is not, nor should it be.

The biggest problem with BiS is that it sets a static goalpost for a diverse playerbase which ends up resulting in most players either overplaying content out of the obssession to try and complete the list and getting frustrated and burned out, or hitting their BiS too early and then being left without any direction.

The removal of BiS allows everyone to set their own appropriate goals based on how they enjoy playing the game, rather than an obsessive compulsive need to keep pulling the slot machine in the desperate hope of finally getting that last item.

BiS didn't require that until Blizzard turned loot into a slot machine in order to kill BiS. Very few people reached BiS, and the kind of player capable of reaching it wasn't the one quitting because they reached BiS anyway. Everybody below that "tier" of player already had to set their own goals(because they couldn't reach BiS), so nothing changed for them.

- - - Updated - - -

Your fight became about TF/WF rather than those underlying philosophies though. So despite getting Blizzard to abandon TF/WF you aren't any closer to getting what you actually want...

It was always about both. War vs battle. Corruption at least in theory preserves the value of ilevel (if we pretend they grew brains and made all corruption scale with ilevel) and makes trading loot less cancer. It's also just more interesting than +ilevel.

[Dizzeeyooo]

I never saw a good argument for titan forging that didn’t devolved into someone telling me I didn’t like it just because someone else got better loot - I didn’t care about little Timmy getting better, Louis cared about the fact that my character was nowhere near optimized simply because I wasn’t getting a lucky roll on a world boss drop from the beginning of the expansion.

Amen to this.

[kaminaris]

BiS didn't require that until Blizzard turned loot into a slot machine in order to kill BiS. Very few people reached BiS, and the kind of player capable of reaching it wasn't the one quitting because they reached BiS anyway. Everybody below that "tier" of player already had to set their own goals(because they couldn't reach BiS), so nothing changed for them.

- - - Updated - - -



It was always about both. War vs battle. Corruption at least in theory preserves the value of ilevel (if we pretend they grew brains and made all corruption scale with ilevel) and makes trading loot less cancer. It's also just more interesting than +ilevel.

I think you don't understand the meaning of slot machine.

Slot machine system was BEFORE we could get upgrades from literally anywhere.

RNG drop is exactly what slot machine is.
You pull the lever of ONE slot machine in a hope of getting the one and only item you want but it doesn't happen for like 100 tries.

Current system is having multiple slot machines and each of them can give you a reward that is upgrade for you pretty reliably.

If slot machines in casinos worked like current gearing system they would go bankrupt pretty fast.

Thing is, current system ensures you can get to 85-90% of maximum power really really fast. While older system did not care. You might have never gotten the item you wanted and there were no alternatives.

[Tradu]

I think you don't understand the meaning of slot machine.

Slot machine system was BEFORE we could get upgrades from literally anywhere.

RNG drop is exactly what slot machine is.
You pull the lever of ONE slot machine in a hope of getting the one and only item you want but it doesn't happen for like 100 tries.

Current system is having multiple slot machines and each of them can give you a reward that is upgrade for you pretty reliably.

If slot machines in casinos worked like current gearing system they would go bankrupt pretty fast.

Thing is, current system ensures you can get to 85-90% of maximum power really really fast. While older system did not care. You might have never gotten the item you wanted and there were no alternatives.

They could've just made it more likely you get the right item, then, instead if adding the slot machine fiesta that is titanforging. Not that getting BiS was as rare as people like to claim in the first place(in good expansions like Cata/MoP/WoD. Cata basically "solved" loot and then they started fucking with it). If you consistently cleared the raid, you got BiS in every slot or nearly every slot long before next tier.
And again, items now are completely interchangeable with the exception of a few weapons and trinkets. Nothing feels special.

[Coldfrostzero]

I understand perfectly. It's you who doesn't get it. You're so obsessed with the 1 in a million probability event that you're ignoring what actually happens every day in real life all the time. In other words, it's an imaginary problem that people like you have exaggerated on the basis that because it's mathematically possible that it's actually somehow meaningful. It's not.

You made an absurd claim that LFR raiders could have comparable gear to mythic raiders if they got really lucky. And rather than admit that you've been called out, you're trying to wriggle your way out by trying to change your argument after the fact.


Where the hell are you getting this idea that I don't think gear plays an important role in killing a boss? I never said anything remotely to that effect. My entire argument is that the gear that a mythic raider will get is significantly more effective than what an LFR raider will have.

But sure, whatever. I guess if this is the level of dishonesty that you have to go, making up random shit to attribute me so that you can "win" an argument, it just shows that don't have an actual argument at all.

I'm not obsessed with a 1 in a million probability, it's not even that rare. I've seen plenty of people when doing world bosses and such have an item TF up to Mythic level. Hell the Anocrystal in Legion was so good, that not having it drop even at base item level for a lot of classes nerfed their DPS. They literally started adding trinkets to Warcraft Logs to show what someone had on for a kill. No surprise, if you didn't have an Anocrystal, you wouldn't be parsing in the top 90th percentile.

Sorry you haven't "called me out" because you're imagining that when I said "comparable" I meant they'd have full Mythic ilvl gear. That isn't at all what I said. They can get an item to drop, that is Mythic item level or comparable due to sockets or whatever for doing content that doesn't warrant it dropping. Go spend your time Mythic raiding, doing the hardest Cutting Edge achievement and watch some guy who spends an hour a week AFKing in LFR get an item the same item level or better than you and tell me how that is motivating. There's plenty of people in this very thread who are telling you that it isn't. You're the guy who benefits from this stupid system for putting in next to nothing and getting a maximum reward while someone who puts in time and effort grinds their 300th M+ or Mythic raid to have the item they want not Titanforge or socket so it becomes useless. Or even worse, you get the wrong item to drop and it Titanforges. Then, compound that on you can't trade it to a friend who needs it for their BIS because it is a higher item level, even though it would be worse for you to put on because of stats.

I am trying to explain the fact that you say it's a "player imposed" requirement when I was talking about gear. It isn't "player imposed" if a boss is literally unkillable by Blizzard's design without the gear we're discussing. You get benched for not having gear drop in a serious guild. I had to switch to a whole different class in Legion as my main because of the Legendary that I had drop on my Paladin wasn't good and the one that dropped on my Priest was BIS. That's just how the game is played at the Mythic level. It matters a whole lot less if the Mythic minimum is 400 and you have a 400 item drop than a LFR raider who has a base ilvl drop of 350 and has a 415 item drop or whatever the numbers are now.

The problem with your argument is, you are completely clueless as to what it takes to be a Mythic raider. You're making an argument from a casual standpoint and it's sad you don't see past your own bubble because it's beneficial for you.

[Loveliest]

You're right in the way that gear contributes. That's not really new - maybe just exacerbated now because corruptions deal a lot of damage.
This is why your gear score or item level has been the metric for things in the past. It's pretty much the same - the better your gear (by whatever metrics), the better potential you have.

[Tradu]

You're right in the way that gear contributes. That's not really new - maybe just exacerbated now because corruptions deal a lot of damage.
This is why your gear score or item level has been the metric for things in the past. It's pretty much the same - the better your gear (by whatever metrics), the better potential you have.

The problem is that a lot of corruption isn't just "potential"(like stats, which still benefit good players more than bad players). It just straight up does its damage even if you press completely clown buttons. It's like the Legion WW talent Chi Orbit which gave you DPS just for logging into the game, while the alternatives required you to play properly to get value.

[Doffen]

Having a realistic goal to work towards(BiS in the past) is great for motivation and makes items more special. It's not my fault we get drowned in gear, we have titanforging and corrupt to thank for that.

It's the other way around, we get TF and corruption because of all the gear. They said so themselves as well, with so much gear they had to make something that offset the potential block where you find yourself getting no upgrades because you get showered in gear, or to the potential of not getting more upgrades in raids etc because you have done it so many times that you don't find any upgrades.

The only way to stop getting TFs, corruption etc in Shadowlands is that they stop having gear so easily obtained. Only then they can take a chance of making gear more static again.

I would want them to go back a little on stuff like that myself. We can only hope they deliver on a good gearing system.

[Sliske]

literally everyone that has 2k+ io in past seasons knows that there people that got there by being carried. In fact its probably 30-40% of people i encounter. Especially healers and ranged dps. People do the raid on mythic, get great gear then come to m+ and stomp it on an easy week. Then you get them signing to your group on a difficult week and dying to shit like surge on first boss SOTS.

This happens every season. I was literally just in a +8 (yes, a +8) where a 1800 main DH on his alt mage didn't know how to handle bolster and was pulling extra mobs for the tank, bolstering mobs up to 8m hp.

People are trash at this game - especially ranged DPS. Want evidence of that, go ahead and run atal 15 for a whole day. See how many people with 470 ilvl fail to do vol'kaal totem phase. Literally a heroic mode mechanic

corruption hasn't changed anything other than delaying the inevitable so that instead of meeting these noobs at +12s and +13s, you instead find them in your +16s and 17s now. They didn't just appear thanks to doing an extra 15% dmg and they aren't going to go away either when having good corruption becomes the norm. In 3 months time when nya mythic is getting pugged, there are going to be people joining your group with 480 ilvl, 2500 score and they're gonna body pull in motherlode

[Loveliest]

Corruption at least in theory preserves the value of ilevel

The point of ilvl is to show the power of an item - if it's high ilvl it should be better than a low level.
A titanforge piece shows it's better than a normal one by increasing ilvl. A corrupted item has increased power vs a non-corrupted one at the same level, so from that pov ilvl fails.

iLvl only makes simple sense when it shows the increase in stats. Once you start having stuff that isn't factored in that adds power (socket, tertiary, corruption), the ilvl shows nothing. Corruption is basically a legendary effect that doesn't change the ilvl.

Whether or not it's more interesting (and it is, of course), is a completely different matter.

[Tradu]

It's the other way around, we get TF and corruption because of all the gear. They said so themselves as well, with so much gear they had to make something that offset the potential block where you find yourself getting no upgrades because you get showered in gear.

The only way to stop getting TFs, corruption etc in Shadowlands is that they stop having gear so easily obtained. Only then they can take a chance of making gear more static again.

I would want them to go back a little on stuff like that myself. We can only hope they deliver on a good gearing system.

It doesn't really matter which was the cause and which was the effect, the 2 are tied together either way. That said, it definitely wasn't quantity that caused WF/TF, because the initial implementation was thunderforging in ToT which was meant as an incentive to run 25man over 10man.

[Doffen]

It doesn't really matter which was the cause and which was the effect, the 2 are tied together either way. That said, it definitely wasn't quantity that caused WF/TF, because the initial implementation was thunderforging in ToT which was meant as an incentive to run 25man over 10man.

Yeah, you are right about that, I did edit the post. Wasn't sure how to write it in plain english.

And yes, doesn't really matter what I suppose, but they are tied either way.

"In today’s Live Developer Q&A for Patch 8.1.5, World of Warcraft Game Director Ion Hazzikostas called the Titanforging system a “solution to the problems” proposed by specific loot tables in raiding. He stated that Titanforging was essentially an answer to the demoralizing feeling you may get if you’re clearing a boss countless times and an upgrade is seemingly never on the horizon.

Hazzikostas went on to drive home the point that Titanforging provides players with “hope of continued power progression” and that raiders have “things to look forward to” when stepping into a raid."

Which is practically "you gear up too fast in the modern days of WoW"

[Tradu]

The point of ilvl is to show the power of an item - if it's high ilvl it should be better than a low level.
A titanforge piece shows it's better than a normal one by increasing ilvl. A corrupted item has increased power vs a non-corrupted one at the same level, so from that pov ilvl fails.

iLvl only makes simple sense when it shows the increase in stats. Once you start having stuff that isn't factored in that adds power (socket, tertiary, corruption), the ilvl shows nothing. Corruption is basically a legendary effect that doesn't change the ilvl.

Whether or not it's more interesting (and it is, of course), is a completely different matter.

I meant base ilevel, my mistake, as in it preserves the idea that harder content gives better rewards, whereas WF/TF just randomly makes easy content give insane rewards. Corruption just needs to scale with ilevel in every case instead of being inconsistent for no reason.

[Zaanm4n]

its not 100% if you get trinkets.. js. maybe all he is getting from chests are trinkets.. or shit corruptions like sec stat increases, I mean sure I disagree with the whole non skilled players are smashing skilled players part, but you cant be this ignorant that you think corruption hasn't created a major gap. This kind of systems need vendors, where players can work towards them so they all have the same kind of gear doing the same kind of content. I do not like seeing my 475 bis sitting in the bank because my 410 got a t3 bis corruption on it and now i just absolutely have to use it, and if you think that is okay, well I guess there isn't much to talk about then.

[Raelbo]

I'm not obsessed with a 1 in a million probability, it's not even that rare. I've seen plenty of people when doing world bosses and such have an item TF up to Mythic level.

I've never seen it. But I guess if you say it happens all the time I guess it must be true

Hell the Anocrystal in Legion was so good, that not having it drop even at base item level for a lot of classes nerfed their DPS. They literally started adding trinkets to Warcraft Logs to show what someone had on for a kill. No surprise, if you didn't have an Anocrystal, you wouldn't be parsing in the top 90th percentile.

And? What exactly is your point with this. How does it add to your argument?

Sorry you haven't "called me out" because you're imagining that when I said "comparable" I meant they'd have full Mythic ilvl gear. That isn't at all what I said.

Ok, let me remind what you wrote:

"someone with astronomically uncommon luck is going to have comparable gear doing next to none of the same difficult content"

Now, let's look at what the word "comparable" means, since you keep harping on about it:

"similar; of equivalent quality"

It literally means that if you compare the two, they are not substantively different. In the context of WoW that would mean having the same impact on your dps/hps/survivability.

Now, all that being said, I am prepared to accept that when you said "gear" you meant "a single piece of gear". And even though the way you wrote it reads as if you're refering to the collective ie all your gear combined (but really dude, it's on you to explain that, not for me to have to figure it out).

In which case I am going to call you out for making a big deal of nothing. Why the hell do you care about some LFR raider getting a single piece of mythic quality gear?

Honestly, what kind of mentality is going to result in a mythic raider with 475 ilevel who is pumping out nearly 100K of dps giving a shit about some LFR scrub with 435 ilevel pumping out a whopping 30K but has one 475 item equipped? That's the kind of jealousy you expect of kids in kindergarten....

They can get an item to drop, that is Mythic item level or comparable due to sockets or whatever for doing content that doesn't warrant it dropping.

Warranted according to whom exactly? Don't get me wrong. I am totally on board with the idea that people doing the harder content should have the better gear. I am totally on board with Mythic raiders gear enabling them to do 3x the dps of LFR raiders. But that does not require that it be impossible for good pieces of gear to drop from lesser content. What it does require is simply that the probability be sufficiently low.

Right now, pretty much the only reason you've actually given as to why you disagree is that you believe mythic raiders are incapable of dealing with the emotional trauma of seeing that piece of gear exist:

Go spend your time Mythic raiding, doing the hardest Cutting Edge achievement and watch some guy who spends an hour a week AFKing in LFR get an item the same item level or better than you and tell me how that is motivating.

So are you trying to tell me that, as a Mythic raider, spending an hour a week watching some guy afking in LFR and not getting an item of the same level or better than you is motivating? Man, some people are motivated by the strangest things!

Yes, that was sarcasm. But your question above is actually pretty ridiculous when you stop and think about it. Why the hell should you care about what happens to a random person in LFR? This really does not happen nearly often enough to warrant it being an issue. If you're having shit luck on a particular piece that you really want, the fact that somewhere out there is a player who got the item in LFR doesn't affect you in the slightest. Your frustration is over your shit luck, not the good luck of anyone else. It's a you problem.

There's plenty of people in this very thread who are telling you that it isn't. You're the guy who benefits from this stupid system for putting in next to nothing and getting a maximum reward while someone who puts in time and effort grinds their 300th M+ or Mythic raid to have the item they want not Titanforge or socket so it becomes useless. Or even worse, you get the wrong item to drop and it Titanforges. Then, compound that on you can't trade it to a friend who needs it for their BIS because it is a higher item level, even though it would be worse for you to put on because of stats.

Seriously dude, you need to stop obsessing. Here in the real world, the people who put in the most effort land up with the best gear. Maybe not for every item in every slot. But that isn't what meters or logs or parses care about and no amount of extraordinary luck is ever going to see an LFR raider even come close to a mythic raider on the meters.

I am trying to explain the fact that you say it's a "player imposed" requirement when I was talking about gear. It isn't "player imposed" if a boss is literally unkillable by Blizzard's design without the gear we're discussing. You get benched for not having gear drop in a serious guild.

What I was trying to convey is that the time commitment required for raiding at a particular level is a function of the players you're competing against for those spots. It's not AP or WF/TF or any other game system forcing you to spend the time. Those systems simply direct how you spend that time.

I never said anything about gear not being necessary to kill bosses. I have no idea what part of my argument you had to mangle in order to come to that conclusion.

I had to switch to a whole different class in Legion as my main because of the Legendary that I had drop on my Paladin wasn't good and the one that dropped on my Priest was BIS. That's just how the game is played at the Mythic level.

I am not going to deny that you and a significant chunk of the mythic raiding community perceived this to be necessary. That doesn't mean it actually was or that it would have been a significant impediment to your guild if you had run with your pally. But that's an entirely different discussion that has bugger all to do with what I was discussing....

The problem with your argument is, you are completely clueless as to what it takes to be a Mythic raider. You're making an argument from a casual standpoint and it's sad you don't see past your own bubble because it's beneficial for you.

Oh I totally get what it takes to be a mythic raider. Which is precisely why I have no interest in being one.

If anything, not being a mythic raider helps me to see the bigger picture because I am not stuck in an echo chamber of like-minded myopia.