9.0 General Discussion

[Sondrelk]

That's kind of half-true. Even the earliest designs they discussed after announcing WoW, which was way back in 2001, featured PvP. But it is true that they never seemed to fully think through how it should be integrated into the game, and certainly not to implement it. Early on it seems like the were very much envisioning some sort of faction war where zones changed hands and so on, there were siege weapons out in the world, and all that. But they just didn't implement it at all. Nor have they ever designed class abilities for the kind of large scale PvP they envisioned.

BGs seem to have been a later thought to try to contain PvP and make it so you had small, separated fights, for the most part, because the abilities and engine handled them better.

This was very different from DAoC, say, where PvP (RvR) was primary to the design and even in large scale conflicts abilities worked well and made sense.

Much of this falls down to the problem if instancing. And why many developers realized that while it might be interesting in theory to have everything happen in the overworld, it would be a nightmare to balance the player economy around it.
Molten Core for instance could not really function as an overworld area, you could just pull all the bosses to somewhere with NPCs and have them kill the boss for easy loot, or maybe the boss was just killed by someone before you got the raid group together and you have to wait for it to respawn.
Similarly with PvP i imagine the devs wanted to have more overworld PvP stuff, but they realized that doing so would be detrimental to the experience. We saw this with Ashran, where battles ended up as endless tugs of war where the winer was determined by who had the biggest premade. This was eventually changed to being grouped up instantly, but then the battles simply became an endless back and forth where teh sides essentially took turns winning.

- - - Updated - - -

So many people think blizzard is holding the alpha to make a big splash and here i am thinking its because they have no id what to do with SL.

And what makes you think that?
They have raids, dungeons, levelling stuff, a story planned, a new way to structure the endgame overworld content.
Nothing so far is implying Blizzard has no idea what to do, mostly it just seems like they are trying ot prevent themselves from overcomplicating the core formula of the game.

[keldarepewpew]

Much of this falls down to the problem if instancing. And why many developers realized that while it might be interesting in theory to have everything happen in the overworld, it would be a nightmare to balance the player economy around it.
Molten Core for instance could not really function as an overworld area, you could just pull all the bosses to somewhere with NPCs and have them kill the boss for easy loot, or maybe the boss was just killed by someone before you got the raid group together and you have to wait for it to respawn.
Similarly with PvP i imagine the devs wanted to have more overworld PvP stuff, but they realized that doing so would be detrimental to the experience. We saw this with Ashran, where battles ended up as endless tugs of war where the winer was determined by who had the biggest premade. This was eventually changed to being grouped up instantly, but then the battles simply became an endless back and forth where teh sides essentially took turns winning.

- - - Updated - - -



And what makes you think that?
They have raids, dungeons, levelling stuff, a story planned, a new way to structure the endgame overworld content.
Nothing so far is implying Blizzard has no idea what to do, mostly it just seems like they are trying ot prevent themselves from overcomplicating the core formula of the game.

The intervieuw with ion and preach, ion basically reached out and said we dont know what to do with the gearing issue and the stacking of mechanics creating incredible powerspikes. If the core class mechanics are not in place its really hard to enjoy the content no matter how good the dungeons might be. Him blatantly coming out and saying that is very atypical for blizzard communication and makes me think they really are stumped.

[Sondrelk]

The intervieuw with ion and preach, ion basically reached out and said we dont know what to do with the gearing issue and the stacking of mechanics creating incredible powerspikes. If the core class mechanics are not in place its really hard to enjoy the content no matter how good the dungeons might be. Him blatantly coming out and saying that is very atypical for blizzard communication and makes me think they really are stumped.

I would take that more to mean that he is not sure if there is a satisfactory solution to both the problem of classes having a lot of diversity AND classes being balanced.
All it takes for a class to end up OP is a seemingly random combination of abilities that work perfectly for a single thing.

That being said. That is a problem mostly with external power progression. Things like Azerite gear, corruptions, essences etc. And not so much with the class itself. So i wouldnt really worry until we start seeing what kind of class changes we are getting.

[keldarepewpew]

I would take that more to mean that he is not sure if there is a satisfactory solution to both the problem of classes having a lot of diversity AND classes being balanced.
All it takes for a class to end up OP is a seemingly random combination of abilities that work perfectly for a single thing.

That being said. That is a problem mostly with external power progression. Things like Azerite gear, corruptions, essences etc. And not so much with the class itself. So i wouldnt really worry until we start seeing what kind of class changes we are getting.

Thats the issue though he said they tried making classes unique vanilla,tbc,wotlk. THen they tried pruning. Neither worked and now they are at a loss. Every expansion for me has either failed or been amazing and it has never been about the lore, the dungeons, the races. The one determining factor has always been do i enjoy playing my class. Hearing they dont know what direction to go in has me worried.

[huth]

Thats the issue though he said they tried making classes unique vanilla,tbc,wotlk. THen they tried pruning. Neither worked and now they are at a loss. Every expansion for me has either failed or been amazing and it has never been about the lore, the dungeons, the races. The one determining factor has always been do i enjoy playing my class. Hearing they dont know what direction to go in has me worried.

It's not that they don't know what to do. It's that there literally is nothing they can do about it. They just have to live with the issues and decide how much of each they want.

[Sweetdeal]

I think we can asume, that March is prob. the month to go.

[Makabreska]

There is no point of more allied races. New customization will cover subraces, new unified starting zone solves problem with creating questing experience for regular races. Now they can just release brand new race without stupid requirements whenever they see it fits lore.

New customization won't even come close to cover for new allied races. It's mostly skin textures and new hair. Check Vulpera for example, or Kul Tirans, with their entirely new skeleton. Plenty of options for new AR.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Thats the issue though he said they tried making classes unique vanilla,tbc,wotlk. THen they tried pruning. Neither worked and now they are at a loss. Every expansion for me has either failed or been amazing and it has never been about the lore, the dungeons, the races. The one determining factor has always been do i enjoy playing my class. Hearing they dont know what direction to go in has me worried.

Its a complicated issue and not something thats so simple. Them not being sure how to handle this issue isn't really scary.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

a story planned,

let's stop you right there.

[Dracullus]

New customization won't even come close to cover for new allied races. It's mostly skin textures and new hair. Check Vulpera for example, or Kul Tirans, with their entirely new skeleton. Plenty of options for new AR.

Read my post again. Since all new chars have same starting zone, they don't have to craft specific new ones for new "main" races, so they could start releasing regular races in patches. Also making new allied races would be against "new player friendly" and "alt friendly" directions that seems to be taken in SL.

[Makabreska]

Read my post again. Since all new chars have same starting zone, they don't have to craft specific new ones for new "main" races, so they could start releasing regular races in patches. Also making new allied races would be against "new player friendly" and "alt friendly" directions that seems to be taken in SL.

It's hardly crafting new zones, they have been always re-using already existing zones that are tied to these AR. And about being "player friendly", they can just lift any serious requirements for obtaining them. So no, nothing really stops them from implementing new AR's.

[Alanar]

We are probably not going to come to an agreement on this so I won't push any further. I just have one simple question for you though since I am curious. So I get you don't like gilgoblins, but how would you feel if we got something such as these kinds of goblins playable:

https://imgur.com/a/DjO64KR

Check the first and least image in this list.

Nah, second thing I wanted to say is.. we have vulpera now anyways so lets leave the goblins skeleton alone and move on to the more interesting races imo.

[Dracullus]

It's hardly crafting new zones, they have been always re-using already existing zones that are tied to these AR. And about being "player friendly", they can just lift any serious requirements for obtaining them. So no, nothing really stops them from implementing new AR's.

No, every new (regular) race always got their race questing experience for 1-12 or 1-20. With AR we skip this, cause they already start at 20. As I say THIRD time, now we will have starting experience that isn't tied to any race, so every new race can start here.

And lifting requirement won't do a shit for potential new or returning players. For them allied race system is broken, because they are designed to be an alt. I know many people that wanted to return to WoW and play Zandalari... then they learned that first you have to get level 120 on character you don't want to play in the first place.

I don't get your attachment to allied races. Making new races "regular" would have all advantages and only 1 disadvantage - starting on level 1 instead of 10.

[Makabreska]

No, every new (regular) race always got their race questing experience for 1-12 or 1-20. With AR we skip this, cause they already start at 20. As I say THIRD time, now we will have starting experience that isn't tied to any race, so every new race can start here.

And lifting requirement won't do a shit for potential new or returning players. For them allied race system is broken, because they are designed to be an alt. I know many people that wanted to return to WoW and play Zandalari... then they learned that first you have to get level 120 on character you don't want to play in the first place.

I don't get your attachment to allied races. Making new races "regular" would have all advantages and only 1 disadvantage - starting on level 1 instead of 10.

I don't get why you say I'm "attached" to AR's. I'm applying common sense when explaining that Blizz can easily uphold this popular feature. And your obstacles are rubbish. You keep saying that all races will start in the same place, so how exactly it stops making new AR's? They will simply forgo their small starting zones and start with every over race on the same lvl (or keep the zones and start at lvl 10). It means that Blizz will have even less work to do. And you say that lifting requirement won't do shit, and then you explain it's because of lvl 120 REQUIREMENT. You know, one of those I said could be lifted? You seem to produce obstacles out of thin air to stop the development of AR's, for some reason.

[Dracullus]

I don't get why you say I'm "attached" to AR's. I'm applying common sense when explaining that Blizz can easily uphold this popular feature. And your obstacles are rubbish. You keep saying that all races will start in the same place, so how exactly it stops making new AR's? They will simply forgo their small starting zones and start with every over race on the same lvl (or keep the zones and start at lvl 10). It means that Blizz will have even less work to do. And you say that lifting requirement won't do shit, and then you explain it's because of lvl 120 REQUIREMENT. You know, one of those I said could be lifted? You seem to produce obstacles out of thin air to stop the development of AR's, for some reason.

You seems to be attached to name "allied race" and completely ignore fact that making regular races would change nothing, only make them even more popular thanks to new/returning players.

Sure, they could "lift" 120 requirement, still you have to complete piece of content (unlock scenario) on character you (potentialy) don't want to play in order to unlock character you want to play - little effort, but still pointless. So next step would be "lifting" questline requirement. Next new "allied race" would start at level 1 - because why exactly some "free" race start at 1 and other "free" race start at 10? At this point what would be different between "normal" and "allied" race? ;D

And I didn't say "neutral" starting zone will be obstacle with making new ARs, I said lack of that kind of zone WAS obstacle with creating new race before they came with allied race idea. Now obstacle is gone = no point of making new allied races.

[Makabreska]

And I didn't say "neutral" starting zone will be obstacle with making new ARs, I said lack of that kind of zone WAS obstacle with creating new race before they came with allied race idea. Now obstacle is gone = no point of making new allied races.

What? You think AR's were some kind of a replacement for normal races in BfA due to zones? They were done, because peeps demanded FOR YEARS for an option to make a DI dwarf or Zandalari troll, AND they are easier to make than normal races. So no, I don't see any reason why Blizz would not continue them, along with normal new races.

[Dracullus]

What? You think AR's were some kind of a replacement for normal races in BfA due to zones? They were done, because peeps demanded FOR YEARS for an option to make a DI dwarf or Zandalari troll, AND they are easier to make than normal races. So no, I don't see any reason why Blizz would not continue them, along with normal new races.

Ok man, I give up. I honestly don't get your logic and what's exactly your point. And what the hell would be difference between allied and normal race after they would drop requirements (sorry, I had to ;D).

[Makabreska]

Ok man, I give up. I honestly don't get your logic and what's exactly your point.

Well, vice versa.

And what the hell would be difference between allied and normal race after they would drop requirements (sorry, I had to ;D).

Dunno, maybe the fact that they are an actual sub races of existing races? Maybe the fact they use already existing models. And most importantly, maybe the fact that, in contrary to traditional races, we meet them in game, help them out during story lines, gain their trust etc. so later we can recruit them, like the Allied Races they are? Did you define AR's only by requirements we have to meet in order to recruit them?

[RayoftheSun]

Nah, second thing I wanted to say is.. we have vulpera now anyways so lets leave the goblins skeleton alone and move on to the more interesting races imo.

Fair enough.

[Nathanyel]

Ok man, I give up. I honestly don't get your logic and what's exactly your point.

Well, vice versa.

From what I see, Dracullus mentioned how a unified starter experience made new (non-allied) races easier to implement, since they didn't need 1-2 starter zones for themselves.
Makabreska misunderstood this as applying to potential future Allied Races, which wouldn't be the case either way. ARs so far only had a spawning area, a sometimes* phased version of an area related to them.

You two then bickered on about this for several posts.

* Highmountain spawn in Thunder Totem, not phased. I recently noticed you even see the Orgrimmar portal on other races. Vulpera just flat out spawn in the Valley of Honor in Orgrimmar.