if you have to call one of these characters, a mary sue, which one would it be??

[Pandragon]

Neither of them are Mary Sues. Mary sue is a character type who does no wrong and everybody loves the person. That's neither of them. Stop using these terms wrong.

[heateffect]

BFA Jaina is the very definition of a Mary Sue and also a piece of trash

[Wyrt]

I hate Jaina's BfA story.

1. Jaina is hated by Kul Tiras
2. Jaina's mom sentences her to death.
3. Jaina's mom feels bad
4. ??????????????????????????
5. Jaina is made Lord Admiral and everyone loves her.

Like, WTF? Blizzard skipped like the entire fucking story.

I think Jaina fits closer to it because of the several DEUS EX JAINAS that happened throughout the story, but I don't think either one is a Mary Sue, just badly written.

[Kyphael]

I hate Jaina's BfA story.

1. Jaina is hated by Kul Tiras
2. Jaina's mom sentences her to death.
3. Jaina's mom feels bad
4. ??????????????????????????
5. Jaina is made Lord Admiral and everyone loves her.

Like, WTF? Blizzard skipped like the entire fucking story.

I think Jaina fits closer to it because of the several DEUS EX JAINAS that happened throughout the story, but I don't think either one is a Mary Sue, just badly written.

Did you happen to skip Katherine Proudmoore's realization that Jaina was not responsible for Daelin's death like she originally believed, and that Daelin's own prejudice led to his death despite pleas from Jaina not to act on his blind hatred? The people of Kul'tiras also unknowingly believed it until Katherine surely set them straight that Jaina was no traitor. Not to mention Lady Ashvane's treachery.

[Wyrt]

Did you happen to skip Katherine Proudmoore's realization that Jaina was not responsible for Daelin's death like she originally believed, and that Daelin's own hatred led to his own death despite pleas from Jaina's warnings to her father? The people of KUl'tiras also unknowingly believed it until Katherine surely set them straight that Jaina was no traitor. Not to mention Lady Ashvane's treachery.

No, I didn't skip the part where Jaina's mom felt bad. That's not the part that is missing. The part that's missing is how the fuck did Kul Tiras magically get super cool with Jaina pretty much instantly.

[Bigby]

Sylvanas is much more toxic to the story overall.

For all people bemoan Jaina as a Mary Sue, she doesn't really do that much to move the story forward and most of her actions end up mitigated by the Alliance not being allowed to make major headway against the Horde. She's basically there to look flashy. The exception is the end of the Kul Tiras arc, but we all knew that was a foregone conclusion. Her 'mistakes' also get called out a lot by other characters.

Sylvanas meanwhile has been the point that the story spins on for three expansions. Characters will turn into jibbering, ineffectual morons at her mere presence for no more reason than, "Sylvanas needs to be able to do the thing."

Also for the people saying Jaina's power is unexplained and Sylvanas is. She's been touted as an extremely gifted mage as far back as WC3 and that the Thunder King raids made her staff a conduit for some serious magical mojo. Sylvanas meanwhile, we've never even had characters in-universe act like she's had a power up, spending most of BfA believing "oh she was always like that" until BlizzCon handwaves it as "yeah it was the Jailer I guess."

[eurojust]

Did you happen to skip Katherine Proudmoore's realization that Jaina was not responsible for Daelin's death like she originally believed, and that Daelin's own prejudice led to his death despite pleas from Jaina not to act on his blind hatred? The people of Kul'tiras also unknowingly believed it until Katherine surely set them straight that Jaina was no traitor. Not to mention Lady Ashvane's treachery.

Which is funny since she's responsible : She helped the Horde so that they could kill her father. But her people don't know that. They only think that she stood aside.

[allawyn]

The "Villain Sue" is a pretty widely recognized subtrope of the Mary Sue trope, although I don't think it's applicable to Sylvanas either.

Perhaps. But the requirements for villains is different than for heroes. I mean, now that she is a villian, she needs to take on all the forces of good, the entire Alliance mostly by herself. Before that, she couldn't even match Malfurion. They pretty much had to give her a huge upgrade if she is going to be the big bad of the next expansion. (Or even the asst. baddie).

[Aucald]

Perhaps. But the requirements for villains is different than for heroes. I mean, now that she is a villian, she needs to take on all the forces of good, the entire Alliance mostly by herself. Before that, she couldn't even match Malfurion. They pretty much had to give her a huge upgrade if she is going to be the big bad of the next expansion. (Or even the asst. baddie).

As long as it satisfies the criteria for a Mary Sue, and also happens to be either evil or the antagonist, it qualifies. I don't think Sylvanas meets that rubric, though; so is neither a Mary Sue nor a Villain Sue, as it were. I know some people claim her defeat of Bolvar was a threshold or jumping the shark type of moment that brought her closer to this particular nadir, but it's not a position I agree with personally.

[omeomorfismo]

w3 jaina is basically textbook definition mary sue.
even bfa, the shitty baine quest where a just regicide jaina is near horde characters is so wrong that to rationalize it only being a mary sue should be realistic

[Aresk]

I voted Silvanas, just because I associate Mary Sues with fan fiction, and Silvanas sounds like a fan fiction character where the author doesn't bother to look up the spelling of the characters that they are writing about.

Between Sylvanas and Jaina, I would vote Sylvanas solely from the competence angle, with everything that happens to Sylvanas going according to plan, including all the losses and the angry outbursts. I wouldn't label any of them Mary Sues, though.

No, I didn't skip the part where Jaina's mom felt bad. That's not the part that is missing. The part that's missing is how the fuck did Kul Tiras magically get super cool with Jaina pretty much instantly.

Probably the part where the kingdom was betrayed by a trusted friend of the Lord Admiral who launched attacks on their nation, which were stopped by the Alliance hero, a companion of Jaina, who gathered the evidence of said corruption. Jaina's calling home their missing fleet and stopping a second attack by the betraying noble likely cemented their good will.

- - - Updated - - -

w3 jaina is basically textbook definition mary sue.
even bfa, the shitty baine quest where a just regicide jaina is near horde characters is so wrong that to rationalize it only being a mary sue should be realistic

When did Jaina commit regicide? She wasn't even in the room when Rastakhan died. It was a bunch of Alliance troops with Genn and Shaw. Unless you're referring to a different regent, in which case I would appreciate more clarification.

[Hobbidaggy]

Jaina wasn't unharmed, as she had to spend some time recovering from the Battle of Dazar'alor in Boralus. Also other final raid bosses who survived their encounters include Kael'thas in the Eye, Garrosh Hellscream in SoO, Gul'dan in the Nighthold (though he's killed shortly afterward by Illidan), Helya in the Trial of Valor (confirmed to still be alive in BfA), and most recently Azshara from the Eternal Palace.

Kil’jaeden at the end of sunwell, raden in Throne of thunder, algalon in ulduar...half of ulduar bosses actually

There are a lot of them

[omeomorfismo]

I voted Silvanas, just because I associate Mary Sues with fan fiction, and Silvanas sounds like a fan fiction character where the author doesn't bother to look up the spelling of the characters that they are writing about.

Between Sylvanas and Jaina, I would vote Sylvanas solely from the competence angle, with everything that happens to Sylvanas going according to plan, including all the losses and the angry outbursts. I wouldn't label any of them Mary Sues, though.



Probably the part where the kingdom was betrayed by a trusted friend of the Lord Admiral who launched attacks on their nation, which were stopped by the Alliance hero, a companion of Jaina, who gathered the evidence of said corruption. Jaina's calling home their missing fleet and stopping a second attack by the betraying noble likely cemented their good will.

- - - Updated - - -



When did Jaina commit regicide? She wasn't even in the room when Rastakhan died. It was a bunch of Alliance troops with Genn and Shaw. Unless you're referring to a different regent, in which case I would appreciate more clarification.

? she is the alliance face in the rastakhan's death cinematic, frankly i dont remember the fight very well, i only remember shaw before opulence. but the cinematic is fucking clear

[Aucald]

Kil’jaeden at the end of sunwell, raden in Throne of thunder, algalon in ulduar...half of ulduar bosses actually

There are a lot of them

I forgot about Kil'jaeden in SWP. I don't consider Ra-Den or Algalon as true final bosses due to their optional nature, but if you wanted to then you could of course add them to the list.

[gurutikka]

Sylvanas is the Mary Sue because they keep shoving her into our faces ever since she became Warchief and even before that they have been shoving her down our throat at the cost of killing off amazing characters such as garrosh, zuljin, cairn, voljin etc.

Jaina hasn't really been a major plot character until BFA nor has she ever played a major role in the Alliance side of the story before BFA. She also doesn't command nor lead the Alliance, Sylvanas on the other hand, has been in the forefront of every major war with the Alliance because of strong female undead woman lead that doesn't need no man!

And that's just half of it, if you go to Blizzard store, you will literally only see Sylvanas merch everywhere, from her statues, to posters, to figures, everything they sell is Sylvanas. So yes Sylvanas is the Mary Sue, a forced one too, that nobody likes. Killing off the iconic Horde just so we can have a story of a dead vengeful mass genocidal banshee elf who is a ruthless power addict and wants to destroy and kill all life on the planet in revenge for what happened to her in the past. Nobody wants the game to become all about her.

Heck even Anduin had more respect for Garrosh than he has with that lunatic Sylvanas. Nobody likes Sylvanas. Sylvanas is just a terrible character forced upon us, I feel bad for the Horde when they lose so many great leaders just to be led by a genocidal banshee who doesn't give a crap about them and only wants what's best for her. Ever since this banshee became warchief, it has NEVER been about the Horde. It has only been about Sylvanas and Sylvanas only. The Horde should have assassinated this nasty banshee long time ago.

[Zandalariprelate]

Jaina and Sylvanas. Calia comes second close to those 2

[Grazrug]

Neither of them are Mary Sues. Mary sue is a character type who does no wrong and everybody loves the person. That's neither of them. Stop using these terms wrong.

So Jaina. Essentially. She overcame the hardest obstacles with ease and got a mad power boost just because she's oh so talented. Her kingdom and the fanbase like her no matter what. And she's the protagonist.

- - - Updated - - -

Sylvanas is the Mary Sue because they keep shoving her into our faces ever since she became Warchief and even before that they have been shoving her down our throat at the cost of killing off amazing characters such as garrosh, zuljin, cairn, voljin etc.

Jaina hasn't really been a major plot character until BFA nor has she ever played a major role in the Alliance side of the story before BFA. She also doesn't command nor lead the Alliance, Sylvanas on the other hand, has been in the forefront of every major war with the Alliance because of strong female undead woman lead that doesn't need no man!

And that's just half of it, if you go to Blizzard store, you will literally only see Sylvanas merch everywhere, from her statues, to posters, to figures, everything they sell is Sylvanas. So yes Sylvanas is the Mary Sue, a forced one too, that nobody likes. Killing off the iconic Horde just so we can have a story of a dead vengeful mass genocidal banshee elf who is a ruthless power addict and wants to destroy and kill all life on the planet in revenge for what happened to her in the past. Nobody wants the game to become all about her.

Heck even Anduin had more respect for Garrosh than he has with that lunatic Sylvanas. Nobody likes Sylvanas. Sylvanas is just a terrible character forced upon us, I feel bad for the Horde when they lose so many great leaders just to be led by a genocidal banshee who doesn't give a crap about them and only wants what's best for her. Ever since this banshee became warchief, it has NEVER been about the Horde. It has only been about Sylvanas and Sylvanas only. The Horde should have assassinated this nasty banshee long time ago.

Her rise to power has literally nothing to do with killing off Zul'jin, Cairne or Garrosh. Stop making stuff up.

- - - Updated - - -

I voted Silvanas, just because I associate Mary Sues with fan fiction, and Silvanas sounds like a fan fiction character where the author doesn't bother to look up the spelling of the characters that they are writing about.

Between Sylvanas and Jaina, I would vote Sylvanas solely from the competence angle, with everything that happens to Sylvanas going according to plan, including all the losses and the angry outbursts. I wouldn't label any of them Mary Sues, though.



Probably the part where the kingdom was betrayed by a trusted friend of the Lord Admiral who launched attacks on their nation, which were stopped by the Alliance hero, a companion of Jaina, who gathered the evidence of said corruption. Jaina's calling home their missing fleet and stopping a second attack by the betraying noble likely cemented their good will.

- - - Updated - - -



When did Jaina commit regicide? She wasn't even in the room when Rastakhan died. It was a bunch of Alliance troops with Genn and Shaw. Unless you're referring to a different regent, in which case I would appreciate more clarification.

Jaina is totally around and shown as the actual killer of Rastakhan. Watch the raid cinematic again.

[Ielenia]

If you really have to, not saying you do, but if you have to call one of them mary sue, which one would it be??

Neither of them, but I would Sylvanas a "villain Sue".

[Piamonte]

So Jaina. Essentially. She overcame the hardest obstacles with ease and got a mad power boost just because she's oh so talented. Her kingdom and the fanbase like her no matter what. And she's the protagonist.

- - - Updated - - -



Her rise to power has literally nothing to do with killing off Zul'jin, Cairne or Garrosh. Stop making stuff up.

- - - Updated - - -



Jaina is totally around and shown as the actual killer of Rastakhan. Watch the raid cinematic again.

Jaina was talented from birth, she is disciplined and hardworker, trained in dalaran since she was a child, was taught by the leader of the kirin tor himself, has the staff of the thunder king and was even taught by kalecgos and despite all of that, she is not as powerful as everyone makes her to be.

[Yoshingo]

Neither of them completely but Sylvanas is way, way closer.

I do like the Horde fanboys up in here insisting its actually Jaina though lol.

OH and Wyrt in here again complaining that the explanation for why Kul Tirans don't hate Jaina isn't what he wanted and thus pretending it didn't happen. Despite a concise, exact explanation here:

Probably the part where the kingdom was betrayed by a trusted friend of the Lord Admiral who launched attacks on their nation, which were stopped by the Alliance hero, a companion of Jaina, who gathered the evidence of said corruption. Jaina's calling home their missing fleet and stopping a second attack by the betraying noble likely cemented their good will.