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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by dreamdaddy View Post
    Class balance is fine now but there are periods in this game where designers seem to have their heads in the sand, like in Uldir when Blood DKs were hands down the best tank for M+ and raids and they weren't tuned for months or Legion's Guardian Druids being streets ahead every other tank for several patch cycles in raids.
    Periods? There's are constant imbalances especially if we take m+, rogue, havoc dh, resto druid and prot warrior are stronger than other classes for that role basically 3rd season in a row. Prot warrior can never be balanced unless we make spell reflect just stop a spell and not do damage back. Why did they remove dark simulacrum from dks but spell reflect is okay to keep? Brewmasters in raiding on the other side of pve went from OP in uldir, to okay in BOD, to OP in EP, to okay in Nyalotha, but when was the last time they were remotely bad? Oh yeah somewhere 3,5 years ago in Emerald Nightmare. When wast the last time demon hunter tanks were best for something? Since the class was implemented, basically never.

    Some classes are consistently strong (mages, warlocks, rogues, warriors, dhs if we talk about dps) while some other are always bouncing between weak and "just above average" (again talking dps: shaman, monk, paladin).

  2. #82
    Unless you are pushing CE early tier there is zero reason to play anything other than your preferred spec/class. The game just isn't that tightly tuned that heroic and full tier progression mythic guilds should give a shit about spec/class. People are simply sheep, shit at the game, and just play whats easiest and the path of least resistance. Even if they hate the spec. Kinda sad really.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Feral Druid ist Op View Post
    My dude there a big, BIG difference between CE top 2,10, 50,100,200 and the top 5000 after 20 nerfs and 30 more ilvl

    People in the range of top 100 Play whatever the raidlead want them to play for whatever output/strats is needed, if my raidlead wants 5 rets in our raid we will play 5 rets as long as we are successful with it.
    Top 100 is also the 1% of 1% of the playerbase. It's a very, very small amount of players, just like people pushing 22+ keys or 2.4K+ arena ratings. Yes, at these skill levels you really gotta play what's best, but for everyone else it doesn't matter as much, and it matters less and less as you go down in skill level. At Heroic raids and lower or +14 keys and lower you can play whatever you want and succeed.

  4. #84
    If you want people to be able to play what they want then you need:
    1. static-ish gear with no crapforgingcorruptions where luck is the biggest factor.
    2. rotations where you can actually fail and not just spam your generator and press your spender button when it starts glowing, to create an actual visible dps difference between skill levels that isnt based on corruption procs and other crap out of the players control. Also including stuff like snapshotting and other such smaller details to create even more tiers of player skills.
    3. give everyone back their utility buttons
    4. make m+ easier, to compensate for harder classes
    5. don't overengineer raids and m+ to require specific things, leave the tactics/paths and such to the players to figure out themselves.

    Legion did some of those things right, BfA did none of those things right.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Maquegyver View Post
    People are simply sheep, shit at the game, and just play whats easiest and the path of least resistance. Even if they hate the spec. Kinda sad really.
    Or they got piles upon piles of declines and decided to reroll fotm instead of crawling uphill through snow every single time just to defend their right to "play what they like".

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by styil View Post
    Whenever there is a discussion about raid performance, the go-to rebuttal is almost always "play what you want to play", as if it handwaves away the genuine performance concerns that are being raised in the argument. Nonetheless, do raiders really get to play the spec that they want to in raids, especially those specs who are always underperforming?

    I can see how there might be some players, who have been veterans in their guilds, can get away with it while the rest of the guild puts up with them due to their authority. But for the majority of players, particularly those who are joining a new guild, I don't believe they have the luxury of truly "playing what they want".

    If we look at the warcraftlogs statistics, the general trend is that the lower the DPS, the lower the total number of parses. For example, the bottom 10 specs have a total of 17,838 total parses whereas the top 10 specs have a total of 54,698 parses, more than 3x as many. This indicates to me that players aren't really playing "what they want", but playing "what is best".

    Based on the above, can we really say that raiders are playing "what they want"?
    what a shocker,people like playing the specs that perform better

  7. #87
    My raid got 2 ret. 1 use word of glory and the other simply refused, saying it is a dps loss. Which bring me to think, maybe blizz should banned all damage meters addon...

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    If you aren't playing the best available spec for your class, you are holding your team behind. If you are holding your team behind, you'll get benched. 100% of raiders have to play meta specs / builds. People who don't and claim to be "raiders" aren't actually raiders and wouldn't be raiding at all if Blizzard didn't make 3 faceroll difficulties for them.
    Because Classic raids weren't faceroll.

    The fact that there are different difficulties means that Blizzard can make HARDER raids, not easier raids. The default is Normal, not Mythic. (10-man, not 25-man hard mode)

  9. #89
    Blizz did say once some specs look worse than they actually are because all the good players who are trying their hardest are playing the flavor of the month. Hard to disagree that if all the top players played the less valued specs, theyd be higher than they are right now on warcraftlogs. Doesn't mean they would be in a good spot necessairly however.

  10. #90
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    The guild environment that you play in matters more than anything. If you want to play what you want then find a guild that is fine with that. The percentage of players who must play something they dislike due to social pressure cannot be more than single digits. Many of them gravitate toward that style of play across many specs and classes and succeed with it because they are that damn good. Congrats to them.

    For the rest of us "play what you want" is the way to go and if your non-ranked guild is insisting on it then you should look for a different situation.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  11. #91
    First of all "what I want" and "what is best" is not mutually exclusive.

    Many people, not even the hard core, have at least 1 alt. For me both shaman and druid can range dps and heal at least back in LEGION and both can raid mythic. I will bring the better spec to the raid, but I will also not play other class like paladin to heal because I don't want to. so what am I?

    I don't understand have you ever join a mid to low tier mythic guild, those who aim for achievement only? It is very casual really. The only concern these guild have is participation - like 20 people actually showing up. Like 1 month before achievement cut-off who cares about your DPS, just show up and do mechanics.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell7 View Post
    Raiders are playing what the SIMS say is best.

    However, no one really questions sims or APLs. People like to turn off their brains and just follow the lead. (myself included)
    I wonder if Blizz released THEIR AI bots and sims, what would happen
    - if Blizz's AI is smarter than the players, we'd have "oooh" moments to play EVERY spec in the game to try to mimic Blizzard's AI.
    - if the players are smarten than Blizz's AI, can we, the players, concinve the rockstar Devs that WE want to play the lesser tuned specs and make them give a few % of buffs to low performers?

    Either way, everyone would benefit from this.
    (but as Blizz stands today, this AI would be more than laughable...)
    Raiders might try what sims best, but if the numbers don't match or in logs somebody flies ahead in practical application they swap to that. We also aren't going by blizzards sims or AI, people are using simcraft, bloodmallet or others like that, I am sure there is even some muppet out there still sticking with noxxic for some bananas reason.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    The guild environment that you play in matters more than anything. If you want to play what you want then find a guild that is fine with that. The percentage of players who must play something they dislike due to social pressure cannot be more than single digits. Many of them gravitate toward that style of play across many specs and classes and succeed with it because they are that damn good. Congrats to them.

    For the rest of us "play what you want" is the way to go and if your non-ranked guild is insisting on it then you should look for a different situation.
    Those that really find a guild that is a true and complete fit for them are the real RNG winners of WoW. Even harder after playing for a long time and all of our interests in and out of game as well as so many other things change. I have been lucky enough a few times to be in a group that checked every box I'd like it to in WoW.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    if your non-ranked guild is insisting on it then you should look for a different situation.
    Oddly these lower end groups or ones just on the hump of going up a difficulty seem to be the worst offenders of over doing min maxing. A raid full of grey parses talking about everybody using runes on each pull or some crazy thing like that or constantly backing into progress as they out gear it.
    "Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    yes a rank 50 world guild is making sure every person is playing "the best spec", no one is arguing that.
    Essence - US Tich is world 49 and has demo locks and assassination rogues in their raid.
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...&view=rankings

    Your wild claim has been proven false.
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell7 View Post
    Raiders are playing what the SIMS say is best.

    However, no one really questions sims or APLs. People like to turn off their brains and just follow the lead. (myself included)
    I wonder if Blizz released THEIR AI bots and sims, what would happen
    - if Blizz's AI is smarter than the players, we'd have "oooh" moments to play EVERY spec in the game to try to mimic Blizzard's AI.
    - if the players are smarten than Blizz's AI, can we, the players, concinve the rockstar Devs that WE want to play the lesser tuned specs and make them give a few % of buffs to low performers?

    Either way, everyone would benefit from this.
    (but as Blizz stands today, this AI would be more than laughable...)
    I love when a meta develops, and lets say XYZ is the best. Anything you do against the XYZ meta isn't viable etc. Then like 2 months later a new meta arises and suddenly ABC is the best even though nothing changed systematically... It turns out that ABC was always the best, but players just blindly followed the XYZ meta and shunned anyone who thought otherwise. This happens all the time.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by barrsftw View Post
    I love when a meta develops, and lets say XYZ is the best. Anything you do against the XYZ meta isn't viable etc. Then like 2 months later a new meta arises and suddenly ABC is the best even though nothing changed systematically... It turns out that ABC was always the best, but players just blindly followed the XYZ meta and shunned anyone who thought otherwise. This happens all the time.
    This happens all the time for Smash, MOBAs, Overwatch, and Hearthstone, but I can't recall a time when this happened in live WoW, maybe way back in WotLK when sometime theorycrafted the ridiculous Rogue Shiv spam spec and it came out ahead, but that only changed rogue play style, not group composition. The meta of WoW shifts entirely due to balance changes from devs, not community perception. Meta of Prot War being great in BFA M+? Came from buffs to prot warriors in 8.1, before that BDK was the undisputed best tank in 8.0. Meta of Brewmaster/BloodDK for standard raid tanks? Came from innate class design& synergy and not community perception.

  16. #96
    Think people are kind of missing the point somewhat, meta specs are meta for a reason. If bm hunter is going to average 5% more on ST than mm, that's true regardless of whether you're going for rank 1 or middle of the pack. Obviously if you are going to play mm properly with good gear you can easily beat a lot of BM hunters, but the fact remains that you are playing with a handicap.

    Good example is a survival hunter named Thyminde on EU-Ragnaros. As of writing this he has the top public parse for any spec on mythic shadhar. However, if you look at his damage on vexiona or hivemind he cant even get close to an average BM hunter. He can get away with playing a less useful spec because he's good but there is still an undeniable handicap. If you intend on raiding at all competitively, you need to be prepared to overcome that gap convincingly or accept that you'll have to play the better spec.

    "Technically good enough to kill the boss" is not really enough if you're competing for a spot and trying to help your guild succeed.
    Last edited by friedmudkipz; 2020-02-19 at 04:11 PM.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell7 View Post
    Raiders are playing what the SIMS say is best.

    However, no one really questions sims or APLs. People like to turn off their brains and just follow the lead. (myself included)
    I wonder if Blizz released THEIR AI bots and sims, what would happen
    Sims regularly and closely mimic the real world results we see on sites like warcraftlogs, so my feeling is the sims are pretty damn accurate for best-case scenarios, which is what fights are most of the time after you break the ice and put a boss on farm.

    - if the players are smarten than Blizz's AI, can we, the players, concinve the rockstar Devs that WE want to play the lesser tuned specs and make them give a few % of buffs to low performers?
    Pipe dream. They just refuse to do small tuning passes and testing or use actual data to back up their tuning. I used to cling to their garbage shill lines "well, that's just a numbers thing. We can correct that easily!" but they literally NEVER got around to doing that ain any meaningful capacity. They flat don't care to spend the time tuning their game to the Nth degree like most players want, and prefer to focus on other things instead. Like making money. And dreaming up retarded throw-away RNG gear schemes like corrupted gear.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by dreamdaddy View Post
    This happens all the time for Smash, MOBAs, Overwatch, and Hearthstone, but I can't recall a time when this happened in live WoW, maybe way back in WotLK when sometime theorycrafted the ridiculous Rogue Shiv spam spec and it came out ahead, but that only changed rogue play style, not group composition. The meta of WoW shifts entirely due to balance changes from devs, not community perception. Meta of Prot War being great in BFA M+? Came from buffs to prot warriors in 8.1, before that BDK was the undisputed best tank in 8.0. Meta of Brewmaster/BloodDK for standard raid tanks? Came from innate class design& synergy and not community perception.
    You're definitely right that it's way more popular in those types of games. It definitely happens in WoW PvP fairly often, but like those other games you mentioned, it's an ever evolving format due to checks/counters. You might be right however that it doesn't happen very often in PvE content.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by friedmudkipz View Post
    "Technically good enough to kill the boss" is not really enough if you're competing for a spot and trying to help your guild succeed.
    Exactly and the problem is worsened for tanks. My guild ran V DH and Prot Pally in M EN, M ToV, and halfway through M NH and though we progressed, we lagged behind some other guilds on our server who we usually were very close to. Switching to Guardian Druid and B DK was a night and day difference. Our healers had less pressure on them, we even started dropping healers for more DPS, and our progression was much better afterward.

  20. #100
    Officers Academy Prof. Byleth's Avatar
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    I just joined a decent guild as an enhancement shaman. They never asked me to respec. All they asked was that I pull my weight the same as any other raider, which I do. Sure, my DPS is lower than the top performing specs, but I parse well and that's all they ask.

    Now if I was applying to a bleeding edge mythic guild, I'm sure it'd be a different story. But for most guilds, I think the priority is mostly show up on time, do your role well and have some fun.
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