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  1. #101
    Why so enrage for tankadin? it isnt like he gonna ring ur hose and hit u or something like that, oh man..

    I raid like a fury war and have A LOT of issues in aggro for monotarget environment. If really its a tank that can easly stacks 1000 or 1500tps for GCD for a bit time i for sure will spot him in the raid. Maybe all of u are in hardcore guilds with impressive tanks than holds aggro very well but.. the rest of mortals and semicasuals guilds are struggling like now for TPGS issues (and yes, even with fury tank spec they are). Im sure some of u will know how awful is be a dps and cant do dps because aggro

    So, really that Gbok Works ? it hasent to do 2min or something like that, it isnt like the pally couldnt aggro with standard form, but that boost of TPS it would very appreciated.

    Oh, by the way.. all of u forget that Lay of hands CD ? 40min vs 30min last stand cd (and 100%hp instead 30%hp) i think we can put it like a defensive coldown it isnt ?

    PD: Of course taunt and other things, but like the person up me.. only a few boses can be taunted anyway

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldfrostzero View Post
    A Paladin tank is still somewhat squishy because they have no big damage reduction cooldown, but they have a longer period to be uncrushable with Redoubt and bosses that have a Taunt requirement make it harder unless they are spamming perfectly of course.
    Paladin tanks are not squishy, I don't know who told you this but it's simply wrong. Are they less defensively-capable than warriors? yes. Does it stop paladins from tanking? absolutely not. Warrior for the better lack of a term "over-survive", which is one the reasons many go fury tanking.

  3. #103
    I don't have an issue with fury tanking, but i've noticed its not that great for the bosses that can't be taunted or when you're on progression. because your fury is likely 2 lucky hits on the rng away from being globalled.

    our first shot at broodlord, fury runs in, dies. gg fury tanking.

    if you're on progression just use regular prot wars less chance of them being killed in 2 hits, none of the boss fights have enrages so its never a dps race. there is no real reason why you have to make it harder for your healers to keep the tank alive just to shave 20 seconds off a kill while hoping that your tank doesn't get gibbed.

    once you have the gear and the dps, then feel free to use whoever the hell you want. life is much simpler when you're not trying to reinvent the wheel. prot wars have less threat gen. but not zero threat gen. if you want the boss to die and have that not be a complete fucking gamble on the rng. use a prot war.

    tbc was the time when tanking in general was just better, misdirect, more cooldowns etc. more scenarios where palas and druids could tank just as well or better than a warrior. druids in tbc were great at tanking the slow swing timer big hitting bosses, palas were great at aoe tanking and holding everything on them.
    Last edited by Heathy; 2020-02-19 at 09:31 AM.

  4. #104
    Thats like a sunwell.. In classic the most ppl are only thinking about min/max etc, u cant say not do a DPS and wait the boss fade because all of the chaarácter progression lost his purpose. Of course i can wait 1 minut (we already wait 20secs, always) and then atack the boss but.. then ? then why the guild want BIS gear of your dps, consumables, elixir (not frask, at least) and so ? and why use meters then ?
    Furthermore, then we could pick more rets (yeah we have 1 also :P ), ferals, melee hunts, even discip dps ? all roles have to do their job, and a lot of guilds has TPS issues because there are a lot of warriors tanks and.. not all know how to play. They know that u can name yourself Warrior tank and then u have all gates open, so only a few know how to do very well his job.

    Anyway,we were talking about tankadin, it isnt ? if taunt isnt trouble, and they can manage a high TPS monotarget, whats the problem ? they arent worse in defense than a Fury prot is, and noone are really tanking with Prot Warrior lastly..

    So?

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldfrostzero View Post
    Providing inaccurate or outdated information doesn't answer my question. I asked, given the new information about how Paladin threat works, their ability to maintain mitigation while being able to create insane amounts of threat, should Paladins be reconsidered?

    We all know they can't taunt. Not every fight needs a taunt.



    Paladin can continue to use GBoK even when out of range. They would be generating threat when they aren't even in range of the boss. If you are generating so much threat that no one else can come close, taunt becomes irrelevant on fights that don't require a taunt swap.

    Other tanks in the raid also don't cease to exist because you have a Paladin main tank a fight. If something goes awry, you have off tanks for a reason.
    Almost every raid fight from bwl forward has need of taunt swaps. They cannot do this ever so they cannot main tank raids ever. They cant even effectively off tank if they cant get snap aggro. It is a limitation of the class and one you HAVE to accept. Just pray Blizz releases BC imo

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Reikly View Post
    Thats like a sunwell.. In classic the most ppl are only thinking about min/max etc, u cant say not do a DPS and wait the boss fade because all of the chaarácter progression lost his purpose. Of course i can wait 1 minut (we already wait 20secs, always) and then atack the boss but.. then ? then why the guild want BIS gear of your dps, consumables, elixir (not frask, at least) and so ? and why use meters then ?
    Furthermore, then we could pick more rets (yeah we have 1 also :P ), ferals, melee hunts, even discip dps ? all roles have to do their job, and a lot of guilds has TPS issues because there are a lot of warriors tanks and.. not all know how to play. They know that u can name yourself Warrior tank and then u have all gates open, so only a few know how to do very well his job.

    Anyway,we were talking about tankadin, it isnt ? if taunt isnt trouble, and they can manage a high TPS monotarget, whats the problem ? they arent worse in defense than a Fury prot is, and noone are really tanking with Prot Warrior lastly..

    So?
    The issue is taunt IS trouble and required for most encounters so everything else is immediately null and void

  6. #106
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    As much as I wish it wasn't so, Paladin tanks are close to, if not straight up unviable in many boss fights, and people aren't gonna want to have a backup solution for each of these encounters. I don't even think they're very good dungeon tanks. They're only really tuned appropriately for healing, maybe somewhat viable dpsers in Naxx. We'll see.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Vilendor View Post
    I love how the instant answer from the classic pros is always "Naaaaaah paladins don't have taunt"
    (see first 2 pages)

    You guys realize 6 out of 8 bosses in BWL are taunt immune, right?

    lol
    What do you do on fights that NEED taunt? Gear another MT for those?

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldfrostzero View Post
    1. https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...019/175887/139

    It hasn't been nerfed. It is not a bug.

    2. Taunt is a problem on some fights. Not every fight requires a taunt.

    3. They gear exactly the same as a warrior for the most part. Instead of a DPS weapon, they take a spell damage weapon. The difference in stats isn't even there as a Fury tank will prefer a weapon that does fast or big damage which will have almost no stats on it period.

    4. I didn't say they would be the primary tank, but they can tank any fight without a taunt requirement better.

    5. They get to keep their mitigation which a Fury warrior gives up for threat so taking more damage isn't a fact nor is it a problem as long as their Effective Health is above a minimum. Again, with GBoK spam, they pull more threat. Mana issues don't matter in a fight that lasts 30 seconds...have you done a raid in Classic?
    You live in a dream world my friend if you believe what you're writing

  9. #109
    how tanks has your guild ? because its a very normal raid with 4 gear tanks, and obviously they dont spec each week, so come and stay in tank mode. Have 4 warriors , or 3 warriors and 1 paladin doesnt do any differences. If the boss need taunt, taunters tank, if not, u can chose. Whats your problema with that ? i dont understand all of u

    PD: And then the ppl cries because hardocre guilds only want warrior and rogues.. oh man

  10. #110
    Can’t do it, horde don’t have them..

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Reikly View Post
    how tanks has your guild ? because its a very normal raid with 4 gear tanks, and obviously they dont spec each week, so come and stay in tank mode. Have 4 warriors , or 3 warriors and 1 paladin doesnt do any differences. If the boss need taunt, taunters tank, if not, u can chose. Whats your problema with that ? i dont understand all of u

    PD: And then the ppl cries because hardocre guilds only want warrior and rogues.. oh man
    1.) Make it work.
    2.) Post video of your BWL clear showing it works.
    3.) ???????
    4.) Profit.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    No, the most important thing as a tank, is to hold aggro, and not fucking die. a warrior can do that in every single fight. any gear that goes to a warrior can be used in more fights, and will simply be more beneficial to a raid and guild, overall.

    A warlock can spam searing pain all damn day, that doesn't make them better than a warrior. They can also spam hellfire, but that doesn't make them a better aoe tank.
    To be fair, the reason Warlocks can't tank as well is because they do too little threat while also taking a lot more damage. If GBoK really does 1k+ TPS under normal raid circumstances, you can easily gear a Paladin to be more sturdy (outside of cooldowns) than even a Prot Warrior, as even the Prot Warriors will want TPS gear. The big (BIG) problem is taunt, and no Shield Wall - but IF the GBoK spam really is viable then Paladins do theoretically have a useful spot in raids.

    Mana isn't necessarily even an issue. Seal of Wisdom + Judgement of Wisdom + fast weapon (since spell damage isn't necessary) will be enough mana for most fights that don't require taunt.

    I don't disagree that a Warrior is absolutely a better overall tank - @Coldfrostzero isn't arguing that either - but this way Prot Paladins DO have a spot in raids. They'd just be geared after the main tank Warriors, but before the Fury Warriors.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Xalvia View Post
    You live in a dream world my friend if you believe what you're writing
    Point out what's wrong about it instead. Yeah, a tank Paladin under normal circumstances (not GBoK spam) is at best a niche tank for dungeons and some AoE fights if you don't want to spend a ton of gold just to do it a bit quicker - and they're basically just significantly worse at everything else than Warriors normally.

    But if the GBoK spam really does generate 1k+ TPS, then Prot Paladins do have some potential relevance in raids. GBoK costs 150 mana which, while it isn't nothing, isn't insurmountable either.

    EDIT: Another big issue is of course the gear - a ton of the Classic tank gear is locked to Warrior. There's a bit of leather tank gear since Druids were somewhat planned to tank, but there's very little that suits a Paladin from raids, at least those currently available. You'd basically have to be DPS/healer geared just out of lack of options.
    Last edited by Segus1992; 2020-02-19 at 11:22 AM.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    To be fair, the reason Warlocks can't tank as well is because they do too little threat while also taking a lot more damage. If GBoK really does 1k+ TPS under normal raid circumstances, you can easily gear a Paladin to be more sturdy (outside of cooldowns) than even a Prot Warrior, as even the Prot Warriors will want TPS gear. The big (BIG) problem is taunt, and no Shield Wall - but IF the GBoK spam really is viable then Paladins do theoretically have a useful spot in raids.

    Mana isn't necessarily even an issue. Seal of Wisdom + Judgement of Wisdom + fast weapon (since spell damage isn't necessary) will be enough mana for most fights that don't require taunt.

    I don't disagree that a Warrior is absolutely a better overall tank - @Coldfrostzero isn't arguing that either - but this way Prot Paladins DO have a spot in raids. They'd just be geared after the main tank Warriors, but before the Fury Warriors.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Point out what's wrong about it instead. Yeah, a tank Paladin under normal circumstances (not GBoK spam) is at best a niche tank for dungeons and some AoE fights if you don't want to spend a ton of gold just to do it a bit quicker - and they're basically just significantly worse at everything else than Warriors normally.

    But if the GBoK spam really does generate 1k+ TPS, then Prot Paladins do have some potential relevance in raids. GBoK costs 150 mana which, while it isn't nothing, isn't insurmountable either.

    EDIT: Another big issue is of course the gear - a ton of the Classic tank gear is locked to Warrior. There's a bit of leather tank gear since Druids were somewhat planned to tank, but there's very little that suits a Paladin from raids, at least those currently available. You'd basically have to be DPS/healer geared just out of lack of options.
    There's still going to be mana issues, not just on bosses, but also on trash. It's also a matter of actual gold cost. The cost adds up over time. If it is spread out among all mobs, then trash packs are a problem.

    And, some people have stated it has already been nerfed. If it hasn't been nerfed, it can easily be done so in 5 minutes... rendering all that loot basically useless.

    Can it be done? Sure. Should it? Probably not.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    There's still going to be mana issues, not just on bosses, but also on trash. It's also a matter of actual gold cost. The cost adds up over time. If it is spread out among all mobs, then trash packs are a problem.

    And, some people have stated it has already been nerfed. If it hasn't been nerfed, it can easily be done so in 5 minutes... rendering all that loot basically useless.

    Can it be done? Sure. Should it? Probably not.
    I mean, considering Fury Warrior tanks already use flasks and spam Stoneshield Potion, it isn't like Paladin is more expensive (100 Symbols is 1g20s, meaning it's 1s20c each, 80 copper per second of spamming, or 30 gold per hour of spam - which is not nothing but really isn't that much (really, bag space would be a bigger issue, as a stack would only last for 2.5 minutes of constant spamming)). Mana can be a problem, but would just become what DPS gear is for Warriors, since GBoK threat can't be resisted or miss.

    It could be nerfed yes, but discussions about whether it works shouldn't revolve around whether or not changes will happen. As far as I know, it hasn't been nerfed yet, it was only partially put on the "not a bug" list, which at least confirms that Righteous Fury will keep increasing its threat.
    Last edited by Segus1992; 2020-02-19 at 11:54 AM.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    I mean, considering Fury Warrior tanks already use flasks and spam Stoneshield Potion, it isn't like Paladin is more expensive (100 Symbols is 24s, meaning it's 24 copper each, 16 copper per second of spamming, or 6 gold per hour of spam - which is literally nothing). Mana can be a problem, but would just become what DPS gear is for Warriors, since GBoK threat can't be resisted or miss.

    It could be nerfed yes, but discussions about whether it works shouldn't revolve around whether or not changes will happen. As far as I know, it hasn't been nerfed yet, it was only partially put on the "not a bug" list, which at least confirms that Righteous Fury will keep increasing its threat.
    It still provides massive limitations, that's the point... because paladins are still paladins. Paladins aren't going to gear like warriors, because their set gear is garbage compared to warriors. Their gear has less stamina, less mitigation, less agi, and less strength.

    This entire argument boils down to one thing... paladins have more threat than people thought. Great. They still have all the limitations that paladins have always had. Those are not suddenly gone. There are still multiple fights in BWL, where that paladin would have no place as a tank. They are literally just wasted gear at that point.

  16. #116
    Warrior tanks has agro limitations. Only for this whatever tank witought TPS limitation deserves a spot. Besides swap taunt boses, i dont think they are really below that. They can cleanse yourself, have a panic button and a 40min NICE CD, auras and other stuff. oh and, yeah mana issues... u know how many warriors tank cant even mt the boss because dont have rage? The only real thing that warrior its nice its Intercept, thats a very cool skill and ofc Shield Block, that becomes nothing with DW Fury tank.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    It still provides massive limitations, that's the point... because paladins are still paladins. Paladins aren't going to gear like warriors, because their set gear is garbage compared to warriors. Their gear has less stamina, less mitigation, less agi, and less strength.

    This entire argument boils down to one thing... paladins have more threat than people thought. Great. They still have all the limitations that paladins have always had. Those are not suddenly gone. There are still multiple fights in BWL, where that paladin would have no place as a tank. They are literally just wasted gear at that point.
    Agility and strength doesn't do much for Paladin anyway, but the rest about gear is true.

    However, if GBoK spam is sustainable and remains as strong as it is, Paladin threat is actually the strongest of all tanks, while maintaining high survivability (like Feral Druids, but better). The (HUGE) caveat is the lack of Taunt, but they'd literally be the best tanks for fights that don't require Taunt or Shield Wall (again, assuming they don't oom).

    Yes, they have limitations for sure, but getting past those limitations to get the highest TPS available could be worth it.
    It's the same situation as with Feral Druids - they have the best TPS scaling by far, eventually outpacing even Fury/Prot Warriors in terms of TPS - but they have the caveat of having less gear, no Shield Wall, and no ability to use items while tanking.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    Agility and strength doesn't do much for Paladin anyway, but the rest about gear is true.

    However, if GBoK spam is sustainable and remains as strong as it is, Paladin threat is actually the strongest of all tanks, while maintaining high survivability (like Feral Druids, but better). The (HUGE) caveat is the lack of Taunt, but they'd literally be the best tanks for fights that don't require Taunt or Shield Wall (again, assuming they don't oom).

    Yes, they have limitations for sure, but getting past those limitations to get the highest TPS available could be worth it.
    It's the same situation as with Feral Druids - they have the best TPS scaling by far, eventually outpacing even Fury/Prot Warriors in terms of TPS - but they have the caveat of having less gear, no Shield Wall, and no ability to use items while tanking.
    And threat is only one part of tanking. Not only that, it was never the biggest reason why paladins shouldn't be tanks in Vanilla. All that other shit is still there, and it's a long list of deficiencies.

    As for cost, it's 1.2 silver per cast. Now, that may not seem like much, but it will add up damn fast. Say you have a progression night, and spend the entire time wiping on Razorgore., that's going to be up to about 15g an hour, just for that single consumable.

    Now, if they make a TBC server, with pallies having their taunts and better (somewhat) itemization, let me know.
    Last edited by Machismo; 2020-02-19 at 12:22 PM.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    And threat is only one part of tanking. Not only that, it was never the biggest reason why paladins shouldn't be tanks in Vanilla. All that other shit is still there, and it's a long list of deficiencies.

    Now, if they make a TBC server, with pallies having their taunts and better (somewhat) itemization, let me know.
    Threat is definitely the biggest part of tanking, or are you somehow unaware that Warriors are tanking raids while dual wielding? Do you think that's to eke out a little more DPS? The reason you don't see many Paladin tanks is that they have nothing to make up for their limitations. Their threat is weaker than Warriors normally, and everything else is too. Bump the threat to #1 of all tanks and suddenly it becomes interesting.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    What do you do on fights that NEED taunt? Gear another MT for those?
    I'm sorry, but this is the dumbest question i have ever read.

    Let me reverse it: What do you do on fights that are taunt immune? Those fights require tank swap too.... That's exactly what you do on fights "that NEED taunt".... (the answer is overagro the actual tank, by the way)

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