If MOP was so good, then why did the population drop so much?

[EbaumsTipster]

Because the number of players is not a accurate representation of the quality of an expansion, the same way movies that make the most money (Avatar, Titanic, Avengers Endgame) are not always the best movies and the most popular videogames (Call of Duty, Fortnite) are not always the best games.

People will always argue this because they feel that sub numbers are "evidence" that make their arguments about expansion qualities superior.

It doesn't matter. Legion will always be listed by players as a good expansion and the sub numbers don't exist. But the majority of arguments about Warcraft aren't based on actual evidence other than people's feelings.

[Cthulhu fhtagn]

Thing's don't exist in a vacuum. The amount of players is a useful metric but it's really difficult to measure when the game has been liked the most. You have to take into account that the late 2000s and early 2010s saw a huge amount of growth in the amount of people who have a pc and internet to play the game. On top of that the amount of other games competing for same players with communities, permanent progression and so on grew. I don't at least remember having that many options in the early 2000s.

[Voidwielder]

The game was getting old and everyone realized the limits of its systems.

That was also the time when new genres started to emerge.

And some people just wanted more zug zug, me Orc.

[justandulas]

The theme didn’t work for many of us older wow players. It worked for others tho

I hear the expac was decent and probably the best for class balance, but I couldn’t get past the silly Kung fu panda and Chinese culture themes. Didn’t fit wow, and I prefer a darker wow universe in theme and mop kinda was the beginning of the current eye rolling themes still existing in game today. It’s where we went from adventurers to over the top heroes out of a Saturday morning cartoon

Not to mention for horde players the idea of raiding org is blasphemy.

[Tziva]

Not to mention for horde players the idea of raiding org is blasphemy.

Not gonna disagree with the rest of your post, but I don't think this bit is really accurate. I'm not into lore so maybe there is more nuance that I'm not getting, but I felt (as a Horde player) that it made sense with the storyline and thematically. For Alliance it might have been just another raid but for Horde it was basically a coup to kick out your corrupted leader and his minions. You weren't razing your beloved city; you were getting it back.

[justandulas]

Not gonna disagree with the rest of your post, but I don't think this bit is really accurate. I'm not into lore so maybe there is more nuance that I'm not getting, but I felt (as a Horde player) that it made sense with the storyline and thematically. For Alliance it might have been just another raid but for Horde it was basically a coup to kick out your corrupted leader and his minions. You weren't razing your beloved city; you were getting it back.

And what about us horde players who want to be villainous horde like wc2? I’d have fought for garrosh if given the chance, but Blizz decided it for me

Blasphemy to think the horde, on the verge of complete victory, would invade their own capital to overthrow their leader who was actually on the verge of victory forever.

I dunno, I get what youre saying but it goes against the very spirit of the original horde that many of us connect to more than thralls merry bunch

[Depakote]

The theme didn’t work for many of us older wow players. It worked for others tho

I hear the expac was decent and probably the best for class balance, but I couldn’t get past the silly Kung fu panda and Chinese culture themes. Didn’t fit wow, and I prefer a darker wow universe in theme and mop kinda was the beginning of the current eye rolling themes still existing in game today. It’s where we went from adventurers to over the top heroes out of a Saturday morning cartoon

Not to mention for horde players the idea of raiding org is blasphemy.

Cause slaves fighting against their masters, mantid who serve an old god who's brought back isn't dark enough for you?

[justandulas]

Cause slaves fighting against their masters, mantid who serve an old god who's brought back isn't dark enough for you?

It is not, not when the potential for true war and conflict existed in game.

Imagine a war where garrosh nuked stormwind into oblivion prior to the siege of orgrimmar, where the alliance burned org to the ground in retaliation.

Etc. random bug people in a panda land don’t mean anything to me tbh. When it happens to generic inserted cliches no one cares, but if it happens to pre existing and established races? Yea that would sting. I’d say, garrosh enslaved the trolls and gnomes or something.

[WowIsDead64]

The sad thing was, you could do no more than 5 dailies each day and stay totally caught up ... there was never any need to knock out every single daily every single day. Lore figured this out pretty quickly, we were more gated by Valor than we were rep:

Yeah, and I don't even mention, that different factions were intended for different playstyles, but since they all were mandatory, players were suffering from doing things, they didn't liked. For example Tillers were pretty easy. Only claustrophobic design was a problem, i.e. that hill was so small and packed, that quests lacked mobs, items and endless bugged combat was your big friend. And at the same time Shado-Pan was way too hardcore and was most likely intended for groups. I couldn't bear doing it. But I had to. Because it was mandatory.

[Doffen]

Nothing ever beats legiondaries in terms of garbage RNG.
They didn't add waking essences because you get showered by corrupted gear right and left. It's not like legiondary system where if you got shit leggo, you wouldn't see next one after a month or two.

And I never considered gear as a reward. Permanent rewards are mounts/titles/pets/transmogs. Gear is gonna be sold next patch.

No wonder why you think legendaries were so bad when you got one every 1-2 month? Idling in Dalaran didn't give you many legendaries. I got 1-2 leggos each week from Nighthold, before that 1 per week. It's like those players who complained about only getting one legendary per month, then people asked them what they did to get them? Emissaries and one raid a week. Yeah, big surprise.

[Soon-TM]

No wonder why you think legendaries were so bad when you got one every 1-2 month? Idling in Dalaran didn't give you many legendaries. I got 1-2 leggos each week from Nighthold, before that 1 per week. It's like those players who complained about only getting one legendary per month, then people asked them what they did to get them? Emissaries and one raid a week. Yeah, big surprise.

Not really disagreeing with you here, but my fire Mage not getting the bracers until mid 8.3 sucked massive dick. Even if I was doing lots of M+, emissaries and old (Legion) raids like a good little boi

[froschhure]

Yeah MoP had only one starting zone but after Jade Forest you could either go to Krazarang, Valley of Four Winds or Kun Lai. And the quest hubs weren't linear like in Cata or WoD. It wasn't on rails.

Ahh true. i did not understand it back then.

[Tyrannica]

Nothing ever beats legiondaries in terms of garbage RNG.
They didn't add waking essences because you get showered by corrupted gear right and left. It's not like legiondary system where if you got shit leggo, you wouldn't see next one after a month or two.

And I never considered gear as a reward. Permanent rewards are mounts/titles/pets/transmogs. Gear is gonna be sold next patch.

Well, i don't get showered by corruption gear left and right, and if i get some pieces they have the most horrible stats for my class you can imgaine, like dodge for a dd spec or a stat that does nothing in terms of dps, while adding corruption.

How does this corruption system have less rng than legendaries and titanforging? It clearly doubled down on existing rng systems!

Lets compare patch vs patch 7.3 legendaries had no rng due to wakening essences system - 8.3. corruption has insane rng...reading your comment it seem you never played past legion 7.2., at that time i almos had all my legendaries on my main, even without the wakening essences system that reduced it completely.

[Doffen]

Not really disagreeing with you here, but my fire Mage not getting the bracers until mid 8.3 sucked massive dick. Even if I was doing lots of M+, emissaries and old (Legion) raids like a good little boi

Yeah, I totally get that, and it did suck for sure. There was one problem with legendaries, and it was the RNG. But mostly because of the balance. And there are always some outliers and among the amount of players that played that is bound to happen, though it shouldn't have been like that because of said balance.

I think the Bad Luck Protection worked pretty nicely(except the farse that was max 4 leggos until early November?) and even when I felt my luck was bad, I also didn't feel it was so bad. But I do understand the frustration. On my Hunter which I changed to main in mid november 2016 I had all legendaries except one when Nighthold came out. That was 9 of 10 legendaries I think, then they added 2 more a bit later. Then I changed main to paladin in ToS since we needed a holydin. And got all bar prydaz, which I ironically actually wanted on my holydin, which was the last one I got as holy a 5-6 weeks into 7.3 I think. I bought like 7-10 relinquished necks per week until I finally got it as my 37th neck piece(Yes, I counted).

We had a chat in the guild just a few days ago, where we all missed the legendaries. And laughed at all the bad ones people(me included) got in the start :P
On my MM Hunter I had average luck. Got like 4 legendaries within 3 first weeks of being 120. Some bad, some good, one awesome(the belt) But then I also played that hunter a lot because it was so much fun. But I am not gonna discredit your effort, you were super unlucky by the sound of it, and the BLP should have made you get legendaries more often. It was clearly a flaw with the system, but I think those who say they only got one legendary every 1-2 month are either lying, or didn't really do the required effort.

[kaminaris]

Well, i don't get showered by corruption gear left and right, and if i get some pieces they have the most horrible stats for my class you can imgaine, like dodge for a dd spec or a stat that does nothing in terms of dps, while adding corruption.

How does this corruption system have less rng than legendaries and titanforging? It clearly doubled down on existing rng systems!

Lets compare patch vs patch 7.3 legendaries had no rng due to wakening essences system - 8.3. corruption has insane rng...reading your comment it seem you never played past legion 7.2., at that time i almos had all my legendaries on my main, even without the wakening essences system that reduced it completely.

You do not understand what RNG means. First of all you did not get guaranteed legednary from weekly chest, you get guaranteed corrupted item from a chest.
Legiondary was present at start of expansion, corruption did not exist in 8.2 before. Damage has already been done, and if you played game you already had all legiondaries by that point. Shame first year was gambling shit rng. And I did play entire legion with 3 months break (the only expansion managed to get me unsub):

https://i.imgur.com/j9Q13iY.png

And if you play M+ you will get tons of corrupted items, plus guaranteed corrupted from raid bosses, guaranteed from weekly chest. Seems like people want to get bis first day.

[Tyrannica]

You do not understand what RNG means. First of all you did not get guaranteed legednary from weekly chest, you get guaranteed corrupted item from a chest.
Legiondary was present at start of expansion, corruption did not exist in 8.2 before. Damage has already been done, and if you played game you already had all legiondaries by that point. Shame first year was gambling shit rng. And I did play entire legion with 3 months break (the only expansion managed to get me unsub):

https://i.imgur.com/j9Q13iY.png

And if you play M+ you will get tons of corrupted items, plus guaranteed corrupted from raid bosses, guaranteed from weekly chest. Seems like people want to get bis first day.

That is why i compared patch 7.3. with patch 8.3. anything else does not make sense why compare 7.1./7.2. with 8.3.? The first year of an expansion was hardly ever good: BfA, Legion, WoD, MoP are all the same here, it sucked just for different reasions.

How should this MASSIVE RNG FIESTA be a better design than legion's 7.3. wakening essences system?

How will alts ever compete with some lucky mains that won the lottery eventuelly by grinding the system out for weeks/months?

Dude you must be nuts - lets end it right here you need to consult a doctor, if you indeed consider with a straight face that 8.3. BfA has less or equal RNG than 7.3. Legion.

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...a_good_system/

[Potatowizard]

I don't remember the PVE content being particularly memorable in MOP (ToT excluded). But I do remember PVP being a joke. Priests were horrendously under tuned again (started in Cata). But would eventually go on to be broken towards the end of the expansion with various buffs.

Hunters(BM? WTF) Warriors, mages and Rogues were broken fucking strong. I think MOP was the birth of triple DPS comps in 3v3.

There was no MMR reset from Cata? So if you were high rated in Cata. You were high rated in MOP. Which is shitty for new people to Arena and devastating for high rated players with poor class balance. You would see rank 1 players playing against new players. So 2400+ teams vs 1k rated teams.

Off-spec healing was broken. Shadow priests / Ele shamans could heal just as much as a dedicated healer (More of the triple DPS)

PVP in Mop had a pretty bad start.

[kaminaris]

That is why i compared patch 7.3. with patch 8.3. anything else does not make sense why compare 7.1./7.2. with 8.3.? The first year of an expansion was hardly ever good: BfA, Legion, WoD, MoP are all the same here, it sucked just for different reasions.

How should this MASSIVE RNG FIESTA be a better design than legion's 7.3. wakening essences system?

How will alts ever compete with some lucky mains that won the lottery eventuelly by grinding the system out for weeks/months?

Dude you must be nuts - lets end it right here you need to consult a doctor, if you indeed consider with a straight face that 8.3. BfA has less or equal RNG than 7.3. Legion.

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...a_good_system/

You cannot compare 7.3 to 8.3 because corruption did not exist at the start of expansion while legiondaries did.

Waking essences did not exist for mains. Literally it did not exist. You could not buy anything for your class because you have been already done with that shit rng because it lasted over a year of farming.

Nuts? tell that to max https://www.twitch.tv/videos/553171289?t=1h21m59s

[Eggroll]

Most of the specs had atleast somewhat OP tools, which was fun. And i get why some1 would miss that. But it doesn't make it good class design. Peole were begging for pruning back then.

Yeah, look, some people want to have FUN when playing video games, that's exactly the point. What's wrong with that?

- - - Updated - - -

The theme didn’t work for many of us older wow players. It worked for others tho

I hear the expac was decent and probably the best for class balance, but I couldn’t get past the silly Kung fu panda and Chinese culture themes. Didn’t fit wow, and I prefer a darker wow universe in theme and mop kinda was the beginning of the current eye rolling themes still existing in game today. It’s where we went from adventurers to over the top heroes out of a Saturday morning cartoon

Not to mention for horde players the idea of raiding org is blasphemy.

What do you mean, "older wow players"?

I am "old" but I enjoyed MoP thouroughly. I did not mind pandaren because I never watched any of this Kung Fu panda stuff to begin with. And didn't mind chinese culture theme because I can't find anything wrong with it. Imagine what the asian players must think having a game full of almost exclusively European culture references for more than a decade. I never get why anyone would feel threatened by an asian theme.

[Faerillis]

And what about us horde players who want to be villainous horde like wc2? I’d have fought for garrosh if given the chance, but Blizz decided it for me

Blasphemy to think the horde, on the verge of complete victory, would invade their own capital to overthrow their leader who was actually on the verge of victory forever.

I dunno, I get what youre saying but it goes against the very spirit of the original horde that many of us connect to more than thralls merry bunch

I would say for those Horde players, they should have looked at any of the developed lore in the past 18 years. None of what you describe has had any validity for a long time and maybe should have adjusted rather than forcing themselves to stick to a stagnated view